planenutz
Posts: 1156
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:50 am

Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:05 am

It looks like ebookers.com exceeded the number of physically challenged passengers allowed on a given flight. Iberia opted to remove all of them. Really unfortunate situation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/berkshire/3919249.stm
Not all who wander are lost....
 
StearmanNut
Posts: 344
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:54 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:17 am

This doesn't look good. I'm assuming it occurred in the EU someplace.
If wishes were horses, a Tail Dragger I would fly...
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12362
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:28 am

I bet this wouldn't happen in within the USA/Canada due to strict anti-discrimination laws as to the handicapped. Probably many flights have f/a's with English sign langage ability. However, I do understand the issue for Iberia here, that in case of an emergency for such a large, unaccompiened group, without someone who could do sign in English. If they had been properly notified, perhaps Iberia could have provided appropiate f/a staffing.
 
EZYcrew
Posts: 454
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:29 am

I fly Iberia every week from GVA to MAD, since a little more than a year and a half now. As a non-rev, I always shut up when I see things go totally wrong. And these past few months I've noticed ALOT of incompetence at IB, especially on the ground (and not only in MAD), and as well as in the air.
There are some very good people working for IB, but I can now say with confidence that MOST of IB's staff are total ignorants, who can barely read a ticket, and lack etiquette and professional knowledge.

Sad, because it really doesn't represent the wonderful country that Spain is, and the kindness of the Spaniards.
 
Skymonster
Posts: 3428
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 7:53 pm

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:45 am

Sorry, but well done Iberia! It seems like this was NOT their fault - if ebookers booked them in contravention of the airline's policy, it was ebookers' fault. At least Iberia made an assessment of the situation and stood by their rules, unlike a certain Irish-based low cost who seems to throw the rule book out of the window faced with broadly similar challenges (like too many passengers)!!!

I'm all for airlines providing adequate facilities for disabled people (whatever that entails), but 23 unaccompanied deaf passengers without adequate supporting staff are a safety hazzard to themselves and to the rest of the passengers if they can't hear (and therefore understand) the safety brief - there simply aren't enough airline staff on an airliner to help that many people if things go pear shaped and they don't know what to do. If there had been an accident and those deaf passengers hadn't understood the safety brief and something unfornate had happened to them, there'd be absolute public dirision of Iberia for letting so many deaf passengers on board in such circumstances.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
User avatar
PA110
Posts: 1897
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:45 am

The newspaper headline should have read: "The hearing-challenged fall victim to the customer service-challenged".

I like the quote: ... Iberia defended its actions, saying it was only following regulations, although the UK Civil Aviation Authority says it has no such regulation.

This is unfortunately not surprising. Customer service is not one of Iberia's strongest assets. It's just a shame they could not have been more tactful.
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
Horus
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:56 am

I have to say that at face value it would seem like Iberia are in the wrong here, but I'm sure the airline did it for safety reasons. God forbid if that aircraft was involved in a serious accident, what would have happened if those kids were given no professional assistance during an emergency evacuation and some were injured/killed. People would then turn around and blame Iberia.

Horus

EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
EZYcrew
Posts: 454
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:57 am

Skymonster

If it was IB's regulation no to accept them, why did they allow them o/b in the first place? That's the big problem with IB : it's never consistent.
I can understand that it must have been humiliating for these people to be offloaded in front of the other passengers. And knowing IB very well, I am sure they didn't do it with tact!
 
User avatar
Crosswind
Posts: 2536
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2000 4:34 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 5:00 am

Iberia defended its actions, saying it was only following regulations, although the UK Civil Aviation Authority says it has no such regulation.

A classic case of 2+2=5

Since Iberia are a Spanish airline, they operate under Spanish CAA rules, and their procedures have to be authorised by the Spanish CAA. The fact that there is no UK CAA rule is irrelevant, it doesb't mean that Iberia were in the wrong, or that no such rule exists.

I would second Skymonster's sentiments, if there are regulations set down by the Spanish CAA which limit the number of deaf passengers not accompanied by hearing escorts, then the airline was quite correct to remove these passengers from the flight. I don't think you can place too much blame on the crew - this should however have been picked up at check-in, preventing the embarrasment onboard the aircraft.

Whether this is discriminatory or not, and whether the airline agrees with the rules or not, Iberia are legally obliged to follow the rules - there won't be any leeway on this matter. The Captain has overall responsibility for the safety of his passengers, and as the Ryanair case has clearly demonstrated, the Captain will be held personally responsible if he knowingly contravenes safety regulations.

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
User avatar
PA110
Posts: 1897
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 5:07 am

Would you like to bet that the Spanish CAA doesn't have any rules regarding this either? My bet is that IB doesn't even have any written company rules regarding this. Knowing IB, it was probably an overreaction and, quite typically of IB, trying to blame it on "the rules".

I'm not saying that booking 23 hearing impaired passengers on a flight with no escort is a wise idea, but I really question Iberia's handling of the situation.
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
Gabrielz
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 3:36 pm

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 5:13 am

Plus, I'd add: the safety briefing document presumes that the person cannot speak the native language of the carrier - they are designed to be universally understood (think: little man drawings). Other than being seated in the exit row, there is no reason why a large group of people who don't speak English/Spanish are a safety hazard aboard a commercial airline. The deaf are in no way uniquely risky to an airline - and I think this is just disgusting.



 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 4941
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:09 am

Having 23 deaf passengers on an aircraft without an escort, would appear to be no more dangerous than 23 passengers who speak, say, Ukrainian, without an interpreter. Are there any regulations restricting the number of passengers who do not speak the language of the crew without an interpreter?
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:15 am

I have to say that I agree with Iberia's decision, due to safety measures. Also, I find it quite striking that none of the 23 travelers or their families thought about have an escort for such a large group.  Insane

the safety briefing document presumes that the person cannot speak the native language of the carrier - they are designed to be universally understood (think: little man drawings). Other than being seated in the exit row, there is no reason why a large group of people who don't speak English/Spanish are a safety hazard aboard a commercial airline. The deaf are in no way uniquely risky to an airline - and I think this is just disgusting.
In the event of an emergency, orders might have to be given out, and it is imperative that passengers can understand these orders - regardless of where they are seated - as it for their safety as well as other passengers and the crew.

Having 23 deaf passengers on an aircraft without an escort, would appear to be no more dangerous than 23 passengers who speak, say, Ukrainian, without an interpreter. Are there any regulations restricting the number of passengers who do not speak the language of the crew without an interpreter?
I believe that there was a similar situation on "Airport" where a group of athletes were traveling through LHR and during boarding, they could not find their interpreter and could almost not fly because he was there to translate.

On most airlines, there is usually a mixed crew of English and the ethnicity of where the flight is going to or from.

Also, the part about how IB was following procedures and yet the UK did not have such, could be because Iberia had to follow Spanish procedures.

-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
User avatar
Crosswind
Posts: 2536
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2000 4:34 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:38 am

In the absence of Spanish CAA rules on the subject, which may or may not exist, there are IATA rules on the carriage of special needs passengers;

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.3 ACCEPTANCE

1.3.1 General
Subject to the rules and conditions of this Resolution, Members shall participate in interline transactions concerning the carriage of incapacitated passengers. Members shall ensure that each interline Member participating in the transportation has specifically agreed to participate in the carriage of such Passenger.

1.3.2 Exceptions
Notwithstanding 1.3.1, Members:

1.3.2.1 may refuse to carry or continue to carry persons:
1.3.2.1(a) whose carriage because of their physical or medical conditions, on the basis of established facts, could pose a threat to the safety of other passengers and their property, the aircraft or the crew; and/or
1.3.2.1(b) who refuse to, or do not submit themselves to the specific conditions of carriage required by the Member(s)’ regulations;

1.3.2.2 may refuse to engage in interline transactions for carriage, or to commence/continue interline transportation of incapacitated persons:
1.3.2.2(a) whose conduct, status, mental or physical condition is determined by the Member to be such as to render them incapable of assisting in their evacuation of the aircraft (e.g.persons travelling in a stretcher or incubator, persons with severe mobility impairment, persons with severe hearing and vision impairment) unless they are accompanied by an escort who will be responsible for them and their needs on enplaning and deplaning during flight, and during emergency evacuation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I said above, the buck stops with the crew. If you were the Captain of this flight, would you take personal responsibility for the safety of a group of 23 deaf students travelling without an escort who would be able to convey safety commands of the crew during an emergency. Would you put your career on the line?

The travel group should have enquired about any special requirements, the travel agent should have informed the airline, and the check in people should have flagged up the issue before boarding.

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:40 am

I don't know Spanish aviaton regs.

But here in the US, airlines under Part 121 effectively write their own regulations. The FAA then approves it. Obviously, much is lifted from Part 121 but there are specific differences.

That approved Operations Manual is the law for that airline. If a US airline has something that says "any flight with more than 20 people who do not speak Tagalog must have an interpreter" (and hopefully, a reasonable definition of how that's determined) than that is the law for that specific airline.

Steve
 
bullpitt
Posts: 757
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 7:09 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:32 am

As usual some of those people on this forum are talking through their A**hol*. In the article at no point does it say that IB personnel were rude, some people here just assume without facts. All they did was to follow regulations. Again if IB does things correctly it's bad and if they had not done it they would claim that's typical of IB and that we're not a serious airline. Lets remember that the ones who F***ed up where ebookers (By the way an ENGLISH company who are one of the worst in the trade) As for those who claim its the same been deaf and not to speak another language, Use your brains before you engage your mouth. Hey why don't we let 20 or 30 blind people on the plane to accompany the deaf guys. In case of an emergency wont that be fun.  Nuts
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
GuyBetsy1
Posts: 806
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 4:00 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:45 am

The group booked through e-bookers.com on the internet.

Sure it's easy to book on line....

No, I don't need any assistance...

That is until they see you at the airport and see that you DO need special assistance...

Better to go to a travel agency and deal with it , I say.. at least with a grioup of 23 persons, they would have been eligible for 2 free tickets and that would be the hearing people escorting them.
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:07 am

As usual some of those people on this forum are talking through their A**hol*. In the article at no point does it say that IB personnel were rude, some people here just assume without facts. All they did was to follow regulations. Again if IB does things correctly it's bad and if they had not done it they would claim that's typical of IB and that we're not a serious airline. Lets remember that the ones who F***ed up where ebookers
I agree - although I am not sure who is really talking out of their... Big grin

I find it very difficult to imagine any FA being rude to, and telling, 23 deaf passengers to get off the plane.

 Insane
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
User avatar
PA110
Posts: 1897
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:30 am

Nobody said they were rude. They were just tactless in letting the group board and confronting the group on board the aircraft. It could have been handled so much more professionally if they had taken the group aside discreetly in the boarding area. It is no secret that Iberia has a prior reputation for poor customer service. Whether that played a role in this situation or not isn't clear, but given their past performance, chances are it did.
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:04 am

Deaf people don't need to be accompanied by hearing escorts for crying out loud!
They're youngsters, right, but they are certainly old enough to travel alone if their parents allow them to do.

And WTF do some people say about safety instructions? You can read those safety instructions on those little safety cards in front of you. Since when do you need your ears to read and understand safety instructions?
I bet the majority of YOU doesn't bother to listen to the F/As during the demonstration.
Ok, now you can come an say "Imagine there was an accident ..." Well, if that really happens than it's more than likely that 80% of those who boarded with no handicap at all, turn into blind, deaf people acting in panic. The rest need a wheelchair and/or does neither speak English nor Spanish. So why bother?

Nobody said they were rude.

I do say they're rude.
Forcing people the leave the plane because they are deaf is extremly rude.
I support the right to arm bears
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:33 am

Nobody said they were rude
I know that I was responding to a previous post that mentioned of how someone else made a comment about being rude.

And WTF do some people say about safety instructions? [...] Since when do you need your ears to read and understand safety instructions?
Allow me to quote myself: In the event of an emergency, orders might have to be given out, and it is imperative that passengers can understand these orders - regardless of where they are seated - as it for their safety as well as other passengers and the crew.

I bet the majority of YOU doesn't bother to listen to the F/As during the demonstration.
I bet the majority of us could assist in an emergency situation, if needed.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:45 am

Obviously you haven't read my post entirely, or you refuse to respond to some arguments. You can never make sure that all people aboard can understand and follow orders given by the F/As, even if no panic is spread among the passengers.

I bet the majority of us could assist in an emergency situation, if needed.

And how do you know deaf people can not?

[Edited 2004-07-24 02:54:37]
I support the right to arm bears
 
access-air
Posts: 1576
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 5:30 pm

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:55 am

NoUFO...Get a clue!!!!

I agree with what IB did.....I would certainly not want to babysit 23 deaf people on a flight and possibly have to assist them to get out of the plane in case of an emergency.....The same situation would exist if someone who wass blind was to sit in ALL the emergency exit locations, and INSIST they could operate the exit......How safe would that be??

People, People, People.... quit this "universal-victim-my-rights-are-being-violated-bullcrap"..I am so tired of it... Had these E-Bookers had the sense enuff to consider they might need a few Signing translators to accompany them, it might not have happened...They didnt so they got bumped.....Whoop-dee-doo, life goes on.....
Get over it...

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
IBERIA747
Posts: 1648
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:43 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:18 am

"People, People, People.... quit this "universal-victim-my-rights-are-being-violated-bullcrap"..I am so tired of it..."

I think the same and I couldn´t agree more with you...but I won´t discuss it here as it may get things completely off-topic.

On regards to people´s comments about what Iberia did...we will never have all people thinking the same way. In my case, I know it must have been an embarrassing situation for both passengers and crew, but if the airline (or airline´s country) regulations demand to do it then nothing can be done against it.
Someone should have prevented this when making the reservations.

[Edited 2004-07-24 03:23:09]
¡¡VIVA ESPAÑA!!
 
by188b
Posts: 549
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 10:46 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:21 am

Why did IB check-in staff let them check-in in the first place?

The group must have been so embarassed when they ordered off the aircraft.

next flights : BD LHR-TXL J, FR SXF-STN Y, SN BRU-LHR Y, MA LHR-BUD Y, BA BUD-LHR J, BA LCY-SNN-JFK J, BA JFK-LHR J, BA
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:23 am

You can never make sure that all people aboard can understand and follow orders given by the F/As, even if no panic is spread among the passengers.
That is correct, but you can significantly increase the chance, and in an emergency situation, every chance is for the better.

I bet the majority of us could assist in an emergency situation, if needed.

And how do you know deaf people can not?

Us=Airliners.net
I am not talking about "Oh, they said to evacuate, so we should probably leave the plane."
Look at the extensive FA and emergency evacuation topics in the Tech/Ops forum. What I meant was that most Airliners.net members have extensive knowledge of airplanes, and if some thing happens where there is a limited crew, I imagine that members could assist in the evacuation beyond what they are called for.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
FlyboyOz
Posts: 1743
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:05 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:05 pm

No more arguement! I do agree with what IB had done to deaf people. I can imagine that IB cabin crew cannot handle 23 deaf passengers because there are too many deaf people to travel alone without hearing friends or parents. Cabin crew dont have time to communicate with deaf people ONE by ONE and also deaf people cannot read lips because the spanish cabin crew lipreading accent is different to english cabin crew. Then British deaf people should fly British Airways and first-english-language cabin crew.

When I travelled alone to from SYD to LAX by a QF 744ER, there were only one deaf person and I was suprised that QF cabin crew worked so hard to look after him only (except the rest of the pax in Y). They had to remember his face and his name. WOW...as if he was a business class passenger. Hehehehe.
The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
 
smcmac32msn
Posts: 1661
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 9:25 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:16 pm

Having 23 deaf passengers on an aircraft without an escort, would appear to be no more dangerous than 23 passengers who speak, say, Ukrainian, without an interpreter. Are there any regulations restricting the number of passengers who do not speak the language of the crew without an interpreter?

My major two problems with this story are hit right on the head with that response there. There is a reason those little drawings are left in the seatback infront of you, so you can look at them and know what your doing in case something WERE to happen. Second, when they do the safety brief, they do it with "PROPS" to help them explain what they are talking about. You guys really think that these 23 high school-aged students were really too dumb to figure out the safety brief and the safety card? Just because they are deaf doesn't mean their dumb.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
Qantasclub
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:48 pm

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:37 pm


What else would you expect from Iberia, an airline SEVERLY lacking in the area of customer service. They honestly have no idea. I have flown them in J class before and will never EVER try them again. They should be removed from Oneworld permanently. I don't understand why you would keep such an appaling airline and exclude SWISS, who have infinitely better service.

Long Haul is the only way to go
 
ushermittwoch
Posts: 2530
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:18 pm

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:03 pm

Wow, I have to (partly) agree with IBERIA747!

IB was following international safety rules and probably some internal ones as well but I can't be bothered checking it out on their sub-standard website.

Although I am not doubting that the situation has handled poorly, which would be typical of IB, they were right.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:34 pm

Okay....Since Im deaf and have worked for 3 airlines in the U.S., I'm definately going to comment on this since this totally  Pissedpisses me off Pissed....so Im going to go ahead and bombard here.... I could care less if A.net staff deletes this so here goes:

Sorry, but well done Iberia! It seems like this was NOT their fault - if ebookers booked them in contravention of the airline's policy, it was ebookers' fault.

Skymonster....you are an IDIOT!! You have no idea what its like being deaf. People who are deaf are just like everyone else. I highly doubt that Iberia has a policy about disabled pax. This is discrimination 100%. It was totally Iberia's fault that they decided to deplane the pax, they overreacted and it was far unprofessional. No airline here in the U.S. does this to anyone, blind or deaf... I travel non-rev ALOT and never had a problem at all. So what the hell do you know?!? Get a clue!!

I'm all for airlines providing adequate facilities for disabled people (whatever that entails), but 23 unaccompanied deaf passengers without adequate supporting staff are a safety hazzard to themselves and to the rest of the passengers if they can't hear (and therefore understand) the safety brief...

What the hell?? What do you think SAFETY CARDS are for?!? Geezus!! They are there for a reason...duh! How are they a safety hazzards to themselves? These kids are not going to stab anyone on the flight.

Iberia defended its actions, saying it was only following regulations, although the UK Civil Aviation Authority says it has no such regulation..

AND theres no Federal Aviation Regulation saying anything as well....same thing!

Whether this is discriminatory or not, and whether the airline agrees with the rules or not, Iberia are legally obliged to follow the rules...

What rules?? Where does it say that "ALL DEAF PAX MUST HAVE ESCORT REGARDLESS OF AGE"?? Show that to me and then I'll back down. Its discrimination through and through.

Would you like to bet that the Spanish CAA doesn't have any rules regarding this either? My bet is that IB doesn't even have any written company rules regarding this. Knowing IB, it was probably an overreaction and, quite typically of IB, trying to blame it on "the rules".

At least someone here understands the situation. I agree, I bet the Spanish CAA regulations dont even have the rules either.

1.3.2.2(a) whose conduct, status, mental or physical condition is determined by the Member to be such as to render them incapable of assisting in their evacuation of the aircraft (e.g.persons travelling in a stretcher or incubator, persons with severe mobility impairment, persons with severe hearing and vision impairment) unless they are accompanied by an escort who will be responsible for them and their needs on enplaning and deplaning during flight, and during emergency evacuation.

Crosswind, this means NOTHING at all. This is irrevelant. The Disabilities Act in any country superseds this regulation. I bet you money that the reguation does not exist anymore.


I believe that there was a similar situation on "Airport" where a group of athletes were traveling through LHR and during boarding, they could not find their interpreter and could almost not fly because he was there to translate.

Yeah, they were not disabled. That is a HUGE difference to the situation at hand. The airline could of picked up the phone, dialed to the airport translator and had the situation resolved right there. I know at AS, we had a translator line in SEA and that is used DAILY. No problems there!

Back to the topic at hand. What IB did was inexcuseable. It has NOTHING to do with safety to the operation of the flight. These high school kids are not dumb. What do you think the safety cards are for. Ive sat in emergency exit rows countless times and I know how to operate an overwing exit. Its not too difficult.

So now, let me ask...When I fly as an employee non-rev, will I be asked to deplane just because Im deaf? If so, then the airline is starting a war with me. And I will WIN. The law protects me here in the U.S. How does MY deafness cause an interferance to the flight crew. I dont need the flight crew to wipe my ass for me, help me eat my meal, I can do that myself just fine. I dont need to be babysat. If I was asked to be babysat, my co-workers would make fun of me only because I need a friggen babysitter to non-rev on my passes.

Not only IB needs a reality check, EVERY airline needs a reality check when it comes to disabled pax. The only time you would need a escort is when the pax is considered as an Unaccompied minor.

Some of you people need to look at this situation from the deaf person's view. How would YOU feel if this happened to you? I mean, seriously! The majority of you here at A.net dont have any type of disability. So I assume that you feel that you are PERFECT in every way. Well guess what, that a load of BS! There are people who have severe high blood pressure, or had a transplant, or cant type very well. Everyone is disabled in their own unique way. Everyone, disabled or not, are equal in every way possible. You have absolutely no idea how hard it is for me being deaf and how I have to pay extra attention at everything I do. Does that bother me? No, but I have made a good habit of it and I do it well. Im used to it. AND, I dont complain about it. Im just like EVERYONE else. IB was wrong, completely! They just didnt know how to handle the situation and overreacted without finding out HOW to solve the situation. The captain is an idiot!

Im not trying to make myself sound like Im a whiney "sorry for myself' type brat, acutally, Im not. This situation just sickens the hell out of me. If IB had some brains to solve this, this wouldnt of have happened and the high schoolers would have been on their way.

If Tasha read about this, Im sure she would BLOW to bits and go on a ragin fit. Im sure she would bring up the Americans with Disabilities Act, which Im protected by and I have used it in this industry countless times and Ive won them all.

Those of you nay sayers, you are obviously not educuated about what its like to be deaf and how to appropriately handle situations like this. So how are you qualified to go around making assumptions when you dont know squat. Think before you speak and act!! If you want to know how to deal with sitations like this, I suggest you contact your local disability services in your area on how to deal with stuff like this. Its not that hard to do. Easy to undestand and makes life pleasent for everyone.

 PissedGet a clue!! Pissed
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
collegestud
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:58 pm

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:30 pm

OK.. I agree with AirframeAS. I am also deaf. Iberia has not right to remove deaf passengers. Thats the disgusted discrimination. I think British deaf passengers will sue Iberia. I have no problem with flying. I will avoid to fly for Iberia in the future. Iberia is not very good customer service with deaf passengers.

I will tell the deaf community in Rochester, NY about this article. Rochester, NY has the largest deaf community. I am sure that they will see it.



 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:05 pm

Access-Air, you don't need to babysit 23 or 46 deaf people. Being deaf doesn't mean they are mentally retarded. If you have a certain member in mind - his problem is not his hearing impairment.
There are deaf athletes, deaf musicians, deaf business-men ... Could you please elaborate why on earth you get the idea it would be neccessary to babysit them? Because they may not understand what the crew will tell them? At least they can read lips - something a Greek, Russian, Arab, Chinese or German with no understanding of English or Spanish can not. Before you start talking abour a "universal-right-bullshit", at least try to get your facts straight. Your post is so full of ignorance (same goes for some other people) - you don't even know what you are talking 'bout.

SafetyDude, after reading your last post a couple of times I'm sorry to tell you that I found nothing that really contributes to the topic we discuss, maybe with the exception of this line:

That is correct, but you can significantly increase the chance, and in an emergency situation, every chance is for the better.

Than carriers better no longer serve older people, children, people in wheelchairs and others while the rest would have to apply for Rohrschach, HAWIK-R and language tests before boarding the plane.

Ushermitwoch, there is no such regulation banning deaf people.
I support the right to arm bears
 
BDLGUY
Posts: 183
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2000 9:10 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:23 pm

Okay Guys,

But Let me tell you guys something. Believe me, I am hearing impaired. Back in the Summer of 1993, I flew on North American Airlines MD-83 N183NA from JFK to Martinique (FDF) myself. Before we left the gate at JFK and the f/a explained over the safety card to make sure if I understand.

As I arrived at FDF and realized the airport sign were all French (No English!!) so I had to figure out what the sign said. It was very tough for me because I don't speak French but I made it without any major problems. By the way, I had a wonderful time at Martinique.  Laugh out loud

Cheers!
John
John A. Perrotta (KBDL/BDL) - Canon 300D/400D & EF 75-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:10 pm

I don't think it is unreasonable for an airline to take measures -- no matter how drastic or politically incorrect -- to ensure safe carriage of passengers in their care. If the airline felt that 23 hearing impaired customers on one flight exceeded the boundaries, then I think they had the right to make that decision. I can't comment on how this decision was made (i.e., tactfully or not) because I wasn't there.

People always assume the worst.

Think about this:

Why would Iberia purposely discriminate against 23 people? What would they gain from it? If anything, I would think that from strictly a service standpoint, flight attendants would welcome deaf passengers over loud-mouthed, overly demanding ones.
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:11 pm

What else would you expect from Iberia, an airline SEVERLY lacking in the area of customer service. They honestly have no idea. I have flown them in J class before and will never EVER try them again. They should be removed from Oneworld permanently. I don't understand why you would keep such an appaling airline and exclude SWISS, who have infinitely better service.
First of all, Iberia was never told about the situation until the passengers showed up. I really hate how people complain about their one horrible flight and that they will never fly the airline again. Now, though, I must say that we hit a new level with airlines being removed from their alliance. It is kind of like "Survivor" meets "Airline".  Laugh out loud

Skymonster....you are an IDIOT!! You have no idea what its like being deaf. People who are deaf are just like everyone else. I highly doubt that Iberia has a policy about disabled pax. This is discrimination 100%. It was totally Iberia's fault that they decided to deplane the pax, they overreacted and it was far unprofessional. No airline here in the U.S. does this to anyone, blind or deaf... I travel non-rev ALOT and never had a problem at all. So what the hell do you know?!? Get a clue!!
I think that what you mention is a key point that people have been missing: The difference between one deaf passenger flying, and 23 deaf passengers flying. There is a huge difference, and this applies for whatever the disability is.

What the hell?? What do you think SAFETY CARDS are for?!? Geezus!! They are there for a reason...duh! How are they a safety hazzards to themselves? These kids are not going to stab anyone on the flight.
Once again (the third time, actually), in the event of an emergency, passengers need to be able to understand comands given on the spot. For one or two deaf passengers, other passengers can assist, but it would be very rsiky to direct a group of 23 passengers in an emergency. Remember, every aircraft is supposed to be able to be evacuated in 90 seconds or less. Talking and giving directions to a large group would significantly hinder the safety of all of the passengers and crew.

AND theres no Federal Aviation Regulation saying anything as well....same thing!
That is contrary. Iberia is registered in Spain, so they have to follow not only what country they are flying to/or from, but Spanish rules as well. Do not forget that any airline can decline a passenger (or 23 of them) boarding if they pose a threat to safety.

Crosswind, this means NOTHING at all. This is irrevelant. The Disabilities Act in any country superseds this regulation. I bet you money that the reguation does not exist anymore.
Safety supersedes any regulation, and Iberia made a claim of a safety problem. They are correct and nothing illegal was done.

Yeah, they were not disabled. That is a HUGE difference to the situation at hand. The airline could of picked up the phone, dialed to the airport translator and had the situation resolved right there. I know at AS, we had a translator line in SEA and that is used DAILY. No problems there!
I suggest that you read the posts carefully. My comment was in reply to someone else about a slightly different topic. You might also be interested to know that the athletes were from a very tiny village that had its own language.

So now, let me ask...When I fly as an employee non-rev, will I be asked to deplane just because Im deaf?
Please stop and think about the situation. There is a difference between twenty-three deaf passengers and one. If you do not understand the difference, see my comments earlier in this very reply.

And as for the rest of your final comments, a disabled person is absolutely fine to fly, but there is a difference between one and twenty-three.

No matter what the media may do, the American public and I imagine the UK and Spanish public will not be disgusted with Iberia's actions, as they will see the problem with one deaf passenger, and twenty-three unaccompanied passengers.

SafetyDude, after reading your last post a couple of times I'm sorry to tell you that I found nothing that really contributes to the topic we discuss, maybe with the exception of this line:

That is correct, but you can significantly increase the chance, and in an emergency situation, every chance is for the better.

Than carriers better no longer serve older people, children, people in wheelchairs and others while the rest would have to apply for Rohrschach, HAWIK-R and language tests before boarding the plane.

Do you people not understand it? There is a difference between one or two disabled passengers and twenty three-disabled passengers. If you have followed the topic carefully, you will notice that my comments are about other comments.

Finally, I know quite a few disabled people but what everyone needs to do is understand that there are huge differences between one disabled passengers and twenty-three disabled passengers.

 Smile
-Will

[Edited 2004-07-24 16:12:08]
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:26 pm

what everyone needs to do is understand that there are huge differences between one disabled passengers and twenty-three disabled passengers.

On a LH 747 flight from Bejing to Frankfurt you will more than likely find 23 passengers who will have a hard time to understand orders given by the crew.
I support the right to arm bears
 
OmShanti
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 2:27 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:43 pm

I Precisely have to agree with SKYMONSTER.....and would like to pose a question to all of you. Lets say God forbid, something did happen, What are the immediate and INITIAL reactions that would circulate in the media and thru NTSB. And the general response of the public after hearing that safety did not preside in manner that is required. your thoughts?

OmShanti
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:51 pm

And the general response of the public after hearing that safety did not preside in manner that is required.

For the 7th time: Deaf people do not pose a greater safety risk than all those people who don't speak English properly.
Narrowly minded may do, though ...
I support the right to arm bears
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:05 am

Re: It could have been handled so much more professionally if they had taken the group aside discreetly in the boarding area

I strongly suspect that nobody at check-in or in the gate area even knew that these pax were deaf. Deafness has no obvious external signal, such as a seeing-eye dog or a white stick - if the pax checked in in a group, I bet 23 passports and 23 tickets were handed to the group check in desk, and 23 boarding cards were issued, no questions asked. The check-in agent is certainly not going to ask each and every passenger for a list of their personal disabilities before proceeding to issue a boarding pass. This is why there are specific IATA Service Request codes for disabled passengers - SSR DEAF being one of them, to alert the airline staff to a passenger with special needs.

Likewise at the gate, you just hand your boarding card over and your passport, they shove it through the gate reader, and off you go - you don't hold a conversation. It is highly likely that the first IB staff member to become aware of this large group of deaf pax, was the IB cabin crewmember. FA's do talk to pax, and would quickly become aware of deafness, and more importantly of the size of the group. The IATA regs are quite clear, the FA had the DUTY never mind the right, to request that these passengers travel with carers to assist them in an emergency. Had it been a single deaf passenger, there would have been no issue at all - it is not about deafness per se - it is about a large group of passengers with special needs, even if that special need would only arise in an emergency.

Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
SIN_SQ
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2000 2:36 pm

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:16 am

Arguing that 23 deaf people need "escort" is really a joke.

I am also disappointed that there are still people who insist that Iberia is correct to kick passengers because of their disability and safety reasons. It is indeed that there is lack of understanding disabled people.

There are number of cases where planes crash landed, passengers did help others who were having problems to escape regardless disability and ages - human instinct.

I am deaf guy from a small nation, the Republic of Singapore. I never have a problem travelling with group of deaf friends as well as alone on Singapore Airlines.

I had the most smooth journey on Northwest Airlines (McDonnell Douglas DC 10) from Singapore to Tokyo in May 2004 (I was alone) - nice Japanese NWA agent escorted me all the way from the plane to the immigration section and then even led me out into the arrival hall where I met Japanese deaf guide who was waiting for me at Narita Airport.

I never forgot a beautiful experience when I was travelling with group of 8 deaf people (4 from Singapore and 4 from Greece) on Singapore Airlines flight to Brisbane. Changi Airport officer noticed us chatting in sign language. He approached us and signalled us to follow him to the aircraft where he got SIA Steward Chief to get our seat number and instruct the air crews about the presence of deaf passengers abroad SIA plane.

Even we landed at Brisbane Airport, SIA crews told us to wait for the airport officer to lead us out from plane to the priority lane at Immigration Section.

If SIA and Northwest can do this, why cannot Iberia do?

Will you kick a group of 23 elders out of the planes because they cannot escape fast?
Will you kick a group of 23 foreign people out because there are no interpreter with them?
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:58 am

23 people who speak a foreign language will know, by way of noise, urgent commands being shouted, etc. that there is an emergency. If they are asleep in flight, the noise will wake them, and even if they can't understand what is being said, they will follow the crowd.

If 23 deaf people are sound asleep on a flight, they won't hear anything, won't know there is an emergency, and will be dependent on people stopping to wake them and alert them to an emergency. Will there be time to wake each person and ensure that they are alert and ready for action?

I wouldn't want to risk it.
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sun Jul 25, 2004 1:20 am

On a LH 747 flight from Bejing to Frankfurt you will more than likely find 23 passengers who will have a hard time to understand orders given by the crew.
That is why FAs usually speak a number of languages.

For the 7th time: Deaf people do not pose a greater safety risk than all those people who don't speak English properly.
Narrowly minded may do, though ...

A group of 23 deaf passengers is a safety issues, and there are FAs on flights that speak a number of languages.

It could have been handled so much more professionally if they had taken the group aside discreetly in the boarding area
If they were told in public, this was a bad sign - but, as mentioned, it could have been hard to tell.

Arguing that 23 deaf people need "escort" is really a joke.

I am also disappointed that there are still people who insist that Iberia is correct to kick passengers because of their disability and safety reasons. It is indeed that there is lack of understanding disabled people.

These were 23 teenagers who were deaf. Iberia is correct and I stand behind their decision. An escort is not what is needed, but rather someone who the group feels comfortable with who can help them in a situation and make the flight easier for both the passengers and the crew.

There are number of cases where planes crash landed, passengers did help others who were having problems to escape regardless disability and ages - human instinct.
Yes, this is absolutely true. However, did the passengers help 23 disabled passengers? What you later described of the help you got from FAs is a wonderful example of how airlines are dedicated to their passengers - but there was only one of you compared to twenty-three in this group.

While disabled passengers will certainly know what to do, when there is a large group, issues are created.

I will say it again, there is a difference between one and twenty-three disabled passengers.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
Big777jet
Posts: 2682
Joined: Mon May 01, 2000 10:52 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sun Jul 25, 2004 1:23 am

First of all, Deaf/hard of hearing people are not stupid or dumb. I bet deaf people know what to do with emergency escape. I'm sure some deaf have flown the plane before him/herself. Why IB against deaf people can't fly with them? Do you think deaf are dumb? It's not true! It pisses me off! I will never fly IB. IB will hurt economy and won't profit benefits from world about a million deaf people will not fly again. That's really IB stupid things to do with deaf people. I'm sorry about to say I won't fly with IB again! It is not my problem. IB's problem. I hope ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) or other name for other country will fight against IB someday. Watch out!

Big777jet





 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sun Jul 25, 2004 1:48 am

If 23 deaf people are sound asleep on a flight, they won't hear anything, won't know there is an emergency, and will be dependent on people stopping to wake them and alert them to an emergency.

Sorry, but this is one wild assumption. Even if they wouldn't hear anything (being deaf does not necessarily mean that you hear nothing with your hearing-aids on), change of climate, vibrations or the breeze from people hurrying along the the aisles would probably wake them up. And even if this fails (and this is really, really not likely after all what I know about people with disabilities, which is quite a lot), only one of the 23 pupils would need to be awake (or to wake up for that matter).

And in the event of a crash - I repeat - you will have to deal with a lot more than only 23 disabled persons. Most of the formerly healthy people will be disabled.

[Edited 2004-07-24 18:53:31]
I support the right to arm bears
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sun Jul 25, 2004 1:59 am

First of all, Deaf/hard of hearing people are not stupid or dumb. I bet deaf people know what to do with emergency escape. I'm sure some deaf have flown the plane before him/herself. Why IB against deaf people can't fly with them? Do you think deaf are dumb? It's not true! It pisses me off! I will never fly IB. IB will hurt economy and won't profit benefits from world about a million deaf people will not fly again. That's really IB stupid things to do with deaf people. I'm sorry about to say I won't fly with IB again! It is not my problem. IB's problem. I hope ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) or other name for other country will fight against IB someday. Watch out!

Iberia is not concerned if the deaf people are "stupid or dumb", but rather the safety issue. It is not Iberia's problem. It is the travel agents' problem, as well as the parents of the deaf teenagers who apparently never gave a thought about letting their children travel alone in a large group.

People will not fly with Iberia because of this incident, simply because they will see that this was a safety issue.

If you have a problem that Iberia's concern is for the safety and security of its passengers and crew, then please, by all means, do not fly Iberia.

And in the event of a crash - I repeat - you will have to deal with a lot more than only 23 disabled persons. Most of the formerly healthy people will be disabled (and at the same time unfamiliar with their disability).
I am a bit surprised with your statement, seeing as how you agreed with what I said earlier: That is correct, but you can significantly increase the chance, and in an emergency situation, every chance is for the better.

These "healthy" passengers will be able to function with the instructions from the crew, but twenty-three deaf people would be harder.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
ushermittwoch
Posts: 2530
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:18 pm

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:22 am

NoUFO, you might want to re-read post #13.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
Big777jet
Posts: 2682
Joined: Mon May 01, 2000 10:52 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:37 am

NoUFO-

You mentioned:
If 23 deaf people are sound asleep on a flight, they won't hear anything, won't know there is an emergency, and will be dependent on people stopping to wake them and alert them to an emergency.


Give me a break! How long it take to emergency landing from cruise to land? It takes action more than half hour to aware of it! Come on!!!! Do all deaf people sleeping at the same time? No... I don't think so! Some deaf are awake or sleeping. If deaf person awake sees something happen. I am sure deaf will let deaf person sleeping to wake it up and everyone will wake up. They know what they are doing. Don't be stupid question about deaf who CAN'T HEAR and can't do something! Deaf people are very sensitive to feel vibrate and see very sharp notice. They are not as dumb as sit and unknowing anything. It's NOT true! They (IB) discrimination about deaf. Period! Don't talk about something deaf can't do, don't know, how they do that, etc..... Deaf people know what they are doing. They are not dumb! OK?

Big777jet

PS-

A few employees at my work it was really STUPID question to ask me. After the fire drill alarm. I came back to the building office. A few of employees asked, how did you know evacuation when fire alarm? How can you hear this? I can hear a loud beep and I see the fire alarm flashing white lights. Hearing people CAN'T figure it out what the heck flashing light for! The flashing lights for deaf people to alert that's why deaf person can see sharp when they can't hear. That's why hearing people aren't aware of deaf people can see well. OK? That's all I said.


 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:49 am

Big777jet,

I was the one who said that about the sleeping pax, not NoUFO. And please re-read my post...I never said anything about deaf people being dumb, okay? So please calm down.




 
Gabrielz
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 3:36 pm

RE: Iberia Removes Deaf Passengers From Flight

Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:50 am

This argument has reached an impasse, afaict - and, as with so many other debates on a.net, I think it's disappointing. Not because people disagree, but rather because it seems impossible to have an intelligent dialogue that moves people's understanding forward without name-calling and repeated "entrenchment".

The inclusion of deaf posters on this thread *should* have changed some people's opinions, imho. If people with the disability/knowledge of the disability's limitations tell you that it's a minor issue, it makes me wonder: what additional proof would you require that IB's actions were inappropriate? What countervailing expertise can you bring to the table with the same merit as either a deaf person's or that of the law in the UK/US/ES? The only point you could make with greater merit would be knowledge of an incident involving deaf individuals that did not end well.

(As an aside: for those concerned that a sleeping deaf person wouldn't hear the instructions of the crew, might I point out that an emergency evacuation is almost always accompanied by a physical event (smoke, bumps, sudden loss of altitude, hard braking, rattling, etc.) - which a deaf person would perceive just as well as anyone else).

And, for the record, I think the most disheartening and disgusting thing about all of this is the "safety/security" rationale. Since 9/11, it has given companies the right to do just about anything they want - whether it makes sense or not. In the name of security, restrooms are closed, curtains removed, etc. etc. - and we are supposed to buy it. I think the resulting "cry wolf" will subject people to both complacency and the need to raise the bar for the definition of a safety/security issue. The test for a security issue must be higher than "the captain feels uncomfortable" - or people's rights will continue to be violated.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 817Dreamliiner, airfinglas, alski, Andy33, FlyKev, IFixPlanes, Mani87, qfatwa, qvb222, SCQ83, teme82, transit, XLA2008 and 191 guests