ssides
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Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:47 am

I have heard people on this board talk about 5th Freedom, 4th Freedom, and most recently, 8th Freedom.

Can someone go down the list and explain what each of these are? I understand the basic concept, but the numbering gets me confused.

So ... what is:

1st Freedom?
2nd Freedom?
3rd Freedom?
4th Freedom?
5th Freedom?
6th Freedom?
7th Freedom?
8th Freedom?

Many thanks.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
patroni
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:55 am

Before I start typing a long list I opt for the lazy way and put a link to ICAO's FAQ section in here. this should answer your question  Smile

http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/freedoms_air.htm

Cheers,
Tom
 
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mariner
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:59 am

Try this one - it has graphs:

http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/Data/freedoms.htm

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
ssides
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:06 am

OK, so let me make sure I've got this down. I'll use AA as my airline example.

1st Freedom: this allows AA to fly across Canada on a DFW-LGW flight.

2nd Freedom: this allows AA to stop at YHZ for refueling on a DFW-LGW flight.

3rd Freedom: this allows AA to fly passengers from the US to the United Kingdom.

4th Freedom: this allows AA to fly passengers from the UK to the US.

5th Freedom: (this one is a bit confusing) ... so, this would allow AA to take on, say, BA passengers connecting from CDG, at LGW and fly them to DFW?

6th Freedom: this would allow AA to fly people from the UK to MEX with a layover at DFW(?)

7th Freedom: this would allow AA to fly, for example, non-stop LGW-MEX(?)

8th Freedom: this would allow AA to fly passengers from LGW to MAN on a routing that went DFW-LGW-MAN-DFW(?)

9th Freedom: this would allow AA to fly passengers on a stand-alone LGW-MAN route.

Have I got these concepts right?
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
patroni
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:25 am

Yes, you got it right, except the 5th freedom, which has nothing to do with other airlines.

In your example, AA could fly a routing DFW-LGW-CDG and take local passenger from LGW to CDG.

Kuwait Airways does this for example on their flight KWI-AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA-JFK, I remember that Royal Jordanian used to do that too: AMM-AMS-JFK. Just as examples.
 
JeffDCA
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:06 am

Good grief! I was expecting a topic on gyros!  Wow!  Big grin

Cheers,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
gamarocchi
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:45 am

Me too!!! I was not sure whether I would read a message about politics or about Mechanics...!
 
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mariner
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:25 am

Okay, which freedom is this one:

AA (pretend), flies US originating passengers from JFK to LHR. That flight continues (with some of those passengers) to (pretend) CAI.

AA also flies US originating passengers from BOS to LHR. That flight does not continue to CAI.

Which freedom does it require for the US originating pax from BOS to connect at LHR to the AA flight LHR/CAI?

Remembering that AA would not be picking up any originating passengers at LHR - only US pax connecting at LHR.

TIA

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
ssides
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:46 am

Mariner, I think that would be 5.5th Freedom
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
nwa man
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:49 am

Mariner-

Pretty sure that your scenario falls under 5th freedom as well, although it would be a limited version... I thought 6th at first, but that would require a passenger transfer in American's home country, and correct me if I'm wrong, but LHR isn't in America quite yet.



Regards,

N-Dub
Create your own luck.
 
keno
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:16 am

Sixth Freedom
This term is applied to Fifth Freedom traffic carried from a point of origin in one foreign country to a point of destination in another foreign country via the home country of the airline. (e.g. KLM, carries sixth-freedom traffic between New York (A) and Cairo (C), carrying passengers traveling from New York (A) to Amsterdam (B) and on to Cairo (C).)


Can anyone give an example of an existing route that has this kind of freedom? I can't think of any right now.

Thanks.
 
ssides
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:31 am

I think one example would be this, probably not all that uncommon:

BA flying passengers DFW-LGW-VCE.

I actually almost booked this route a few weeks ago, but it was less expensive to buy separate tickets (DFW-LGW on AA, LGW-VCE on BA).
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
LRGT
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:50 am

KEno: 6th Freedom is very common like was said in the last post.

I am VERY surprised that some people were surprised at what we were talking about here! This is a very basic, intelligent, AND IMPORTANT aviation topic.

I started a thread two days ago called "Cabotage/8th Freedom" asking whether cabotage (marine and air) should be legal. Check it out. While I said 8th freedom, what I really meant was 9th.
Don't bring up the NW DC9's unless you have to!
 
keno
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:17 pm

BA flying passengers DFW-LGW-VCE.

Does DFW-LGW-VCE on BA carry the same flight number & aircraft? In DFW, does the departure show only LGW or both LGW/VCE? Sorry to sound so naive.
 
ssides
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:24 pm

Keno --

No, it doesn't, but I don't think this matters as far as 6th freedom is concerned ... the main concern is that BA is able to fly passengers on such an itinerary.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
Arcano
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:33 pm

KENO:

Lan Chile flight 600 and 601 is:

EZE-SCL-LIM-LAX , LAX-LIM-SCL-EZE

Although all passengers arriving at SCL (from EZE or LAX) are demanded to get off the aircraft and pass through Chilean Immigration office. In case they continue the flight, there are special separated counters for them, in a different zone of SCL.
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
Gemuser
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:52 pm

Sixth Freedom Example: Every SQ, MH, TG & CX flight out of Australia carries sigifinate sixth freedom traffic from OZ to Europe and vice versa. Other carriers do also such as JL, OZ, KE, CI AND increasingly EK & GF, especially EK with DXB-SYD/MEL non stops.

This is why last weeks announcement of a range increase for the B777-200LR was very sigifinate to QF & BA, it means non stop LHR-SYD/MEL is here and non stop SYD/MEL-LHR is here or almost here, which if really practicle will give them the jump on all these sixth freedom carriers for the high yeild end of the market.

Gemuser

DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
keno
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:42 pm

Thank you for the replies everyone  Smile

Arcano's example seems to fit the 6th freedom exactly as EZE-SCL-LIM-LAX carries the same flight number on the same aircraft. Another example that I just found out is Air Tahiti Nui's TN102 on AKL-PPT-LAX route.

I cannot see how BA's DFW-LGW-VCE is considered 6th freedom, when they constitute 2 separate BA service (BA2192 + BA2584) and 4.5 hours transit time between the 2 segments.

Seems like there are infinitely many 6th freedom flights in the world, as any given flight relative to another could be carrying passengers from one country to another via the home airport. On the contrary, what does not constitute a 6th freedom flight? Is it something like Algiers-MXP + MXP-TLV, because Algeria & Israel do not have diplomatic ties?


[Edited 2004-07-24 06:43:53]
 
Ex_SQer
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 5:16 pm

Keno:

You are a little too focused on sixth freedom "flights". The freedoms fo the air are looked at in terms of "traffic", not individual flights. So, for example every time SQ books a pax to fly on SQ222 SYD-SIN and then on to SQ322 SIN-LHR, that pax is considered sixth freedom traffic, even though he/she takes two different flights and flight numbers.
 
keno
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 5:36 pm

Thanks Ex_SQer.
That makes sense. Earlier I was a bit confused mainly because sectors with a higher degree of freedom seem to be more difficult to obtain an approval for. e.g. SQ's hypothetical standalone SYD-LAX route (7th degree) is definitely more difficult to be approved than SIN-GLA (3rd degree). That's why I find it very odd that 6th degree freedom is much more common than 5th degree.
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:31 pm


Okay, which freedom is this one:

AA (pretend), flies US originating passengers from JFK to LHR. That flight continues (with some of those passengers) to (pretend) CAI.

AA also flies US originating passengers from BOS to LHR. That flight does not continue to CAI.

Which freedom does it require for the US originating pax from BOS to connect at LHR to the AA flight LHR/CAI?

Remembering that AA would not be picking up any originating passengers at LHR - only US pax connecting at LHR.


No one got this right. As long as the passenger can transfer from one AA flight to the other without getting out of the secured area, AA doesn't need any UK permission for such a transfer. So, it doesn't involve the UK at all. The passenger on the BOS-LHR flight going to CAI is considered a third-freedom traffic between the US and Egypt. If the BOS passenger is making a stopover in the UK, then AA will need fifth-freedom traffic right from the UK, to transport the passenger onward to CAI.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:07 pm

"5th Freedom: (this one is a bit confusing) ... so, this would allow AA to take on, say, BA passengers connecting from CDG, at LGW and fly them to DFW?"

Northwest does this DTW-AMS-BOM or DTW-NGO-AB) (MNL / RPLL), Philippines">MNL


 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1825
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:33 am


"5th Freedom: (this one is a bit confusing) ... so, this would allow AA to take on, say, BA passengers connecting from CDG, at LGW and fly them to DFW?"


I didn't catch this one the first time around. This is wrong! AA doesn't carry the passenger from CDG to LGW, so there are no AA rights involved. AA is carrying the CDG-originated passenger using its the US-British 4th freedom right from LGW to DFW. AA may have issued the ticket from CDG to DFW, AA will have to pay BA on the CDG-LGW leg. So, AA is not getting any revenue on that flight. An important point to note is all these rights govern revenue traffic only.

If it's a BA/AA codeshare flight from CDG to LGW, then it's US-France 4th freedom right from CDG. The transfer in LGW is irrelevant if the passenger doesn't leave the secured area. If the passenger does enter into London, then more than likely the passenger would not be able to take the codeshare flight under the AA code. He probably would have to take the flight under the BA code. If AA is allowed to take local traffic on a codeshare flight between LGW and CDG, then AA would need 5th freedom right from both the UK and France to do so. The same rule would apply to an AA-operated flight.


Northwest does this DTW-AMS-BOM or DTW-NGO-M N L


This is a more correct example. I didn't say it's correct outright because I know some people will not make the distintion between a passenger traveling from DTW-M N L and NGO-M N L. DTW-M N L is 3rd freedom between the US and the Philippines. NGO-M N L is 5th freedom between the US and Japan as well as the US and the Philippines.

There is one right that no one has metioned. It is not a numbered right. Let's use the DTW-NGO-M N L example. Let's hypothetically say Japan revokes NW's 5th freedom right between NGO and M N L, but they would allow NW to carry passengers between NGO and M N L as long as those passengers flew into NGO on NW's flights. This is sometimes called a stopover right.
 
sacflyer
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:19 am

RE: Can Someone Explain The Degrees Of "freedom?"

Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:12 am

Thank you guys,

This was one of the most informative and educational threads I have ever read.

Perfect example of a discussion forum.

Why can't more threads be like this...without the Airbus v. Boeing bashing or the Air France dirty plane comments?

Oops, just mentioned the Air France dirty planes.





I'm just happy that RR ratings can't be in negative numbers!

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