LRGT
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Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:23 pm

As odd as it sounds, some flights in Africa are ETOPS over land because of no diversion airports in remote areas. Does anyone know which routes are ETOPS and don't go over any water?
Don't bring up the NW DC9's unless you have to!
 
coa764
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:23 pm

New defintion:

Extended Range Operation with Twin engine airplaneS

Extended range meaning that you are 60 minutes form an adequate airport.

Link for you to read:

http://www.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/av-info/dst/Seminar2004/searec/ETOPS.pdf

[Edited 2004-07-24 12:26:03]
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worldoftui
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:50 pm

I heard that the ATC in parts of Africa shut down at night, there fore they have to follow rules similar to those aircraft crossing the North Atlantic.

Can anyone confirm this?


Mark
 
BA
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:51 am

MEA had to get 120-minute ETOPs certification on its A330-200s for its Beirut (BEY) - Kano (KAN) - Accra (ACC) and Beirut (BEY) - Lagos (LOS) - Abidjan (ABJ) flights.

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I think 60-minute or 90-minute ETOPs would have been sufficient, but they got 120 anyway...

Regards
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ual747den
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Sun Jul 25, 2004 1:04 am

This is nothing new, ETOPS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WATER!
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
LRGT
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:32 am

Exactly UAL747DEN...that is precisly why I started this thread!

...Yesterday, in another forum, someone insisted that B6's JFK/FLL and JFK/SJU were ETOPS because they do the life vest demonstration on board.

Not only do the airports shut down but in some parts the airports are few and far between, right?
Don't bring up the NW DC9's unless you have to!
 
7E7
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:26 pm

I can not recall any flight I have taken in which they did not do the life vest demonstration!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Sun Jul 25, 2004 1:02 pm

Have a look at http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=bey-kan%0D%0A&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=red&PATH-UNITS=mi&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=&ETOPS=90. This is a GCM map with the route BEY-KAN and appears to show that 90 minutes ETOPS would not be sufficient. Note that GCM disclaims the accuracy of ETOPS rules under 120 minutes, though. Based on that map, it looks like some flights ex-FRA to Western Africa would need 120 minutes ETOPS also, but I don't know what LH flies off the top of my head.

[Edited 2004-07-25 06:03:30]
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ual747den
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Sun Jul 25, 2004 1:50 pm

LRGT,
Im not exactly sure what you are talking about but ill try to clarify.

ETOPS has nothing to do with water. It just so happens that there are not airports on the water so ETOPS is related to over water flights most often. ETOPS Regulates the distance in minutes that you are from an airport that you can land at. For example, if you are ETOPS 120, you may be 120min from an airport that can handle your type of aircraft while flying to wherever you are going. This is in case an engine goes out on a twin jet.
Now airlines that want to fly over water for long amounts of time have to also be rated for over water flight. This means that the have to carry life vests, boats and do a water safety demo. B6 might have done the demo on a FLL flight because they were going to come in from the East. F9 has also recently received this rating and when flying out of RSW now the route ya over the gulf. It makes the flight a lot faster.
Hope this helps
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
coa764
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:21 pm

UAL747DEN-Ill be flying soon!!!
Then learn the difference. A flight enters the ETOPS environment ONLY when it is 60 minutes form and adequate airport.. Adequate meaning it has a runway and is open (No you do not need weather minimums.. with weather minimums that airport becomes suitable to list as and alterante).... B6/F9 were ETOPS only if the flight was not within 60 minutes form an adequate airport. Depending on what airway B6 was on and whether or not Bermuda is open would be the deciding factor on an ETOPS flight plan to SJU. This whole ETOPS issue seems to be confused with the 50 nautical mile rule. You have to have rafts if you are 50 NM from shore.. This meaning any land mass and not an airport (shoreline to shoreline). The FAA does offer exemptions for both the AR and the Gulf routes (the debate can be weather or not this includes A511/A761).... Regardless of what kind of flight plan the aircraft is operating under the idea is that the folks in the back do not know, will not know and will have an uneventful flight.

[Edited 2004-07-25 07:23:39]
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ual747den
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:48 pm

COA764,
You should edit your post again because you are basically saying exactly what I said. ETOPS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WATER! Also please show me in my post where I mentioned SJU because I cant see it anywhere. I also never said anything about F9 or B6 flying ETOPS routes. I think that you are the one confused here.
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
coa764
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:54 pm

This is in case an engine goes out on a twin jet.
Now airlines that want to fly over water for long amounts of time have to also be rated for over water flight. This means that the have to carry life vests, boats and do a water safety demo. B6 might have done the demo on a FLL flight because they were going to come in from the East. F9 has also recently received this rating and when flying out of RSW now the route ya over the gulf. It makes the flight a lot faster.


Read your own text there high speed.
The topic of this thread is ETOPS yet you are talking about B6 and F9 receiving an ETOPS rating to fly over water from FLL. That is NOT ETOPS.. I was trying to clarify the difference between being 60 minutes from an adequate airport and 50 mile form a shoreline. Two VERY different rules not to be confused.You said F9 has also recently received this rating and when flying out of RSW now the route ya over the gulf. ... The Gulf routes are not ETOPS because on Q100/Q102 an aircraft is not 60 min from an adequate airport yet they are 50 NM from shore so without the exemption those flights cannot fly the Gulf routes without rafts. You need to edit your post...
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
jwenting
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:48 pm

Life vest demonstrations are mandatory for any flight carrying passengers that will pass over a body of water more than X miles from land (where X is a very small number).
ETOPS is mandatory for any aircraft with less than 3 engines which will fly more than 1 hour away from the nearest airport it could safely land at with an engine out at any time during its flight.
That of course means that ETOPS is only ever required on flights of over 2 hours  Smile

Flights over water are more likely to involve ETOPS conditions as there are so few airports in the north Atlantic of the Pacific, but over land it is possible in for example Africa and Siberia.
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Arcano
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:58 am

This is the world under ETOPS 120 mins. As you can see, Africa is totally covered, although some land over Siberia is not.

Regards


Arcano
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ual747den
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:25 am

Coa764,
Do you not see in my posts where I say in BIG LETTERS that ETOPS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WATER, I say that they are not the same thing! And that airlines that want to fly over water must have a DIFFERENT over water rating that has nothing to do with ETOPS. If you would read everything you would not make yourself look like a fool.
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
donder10
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:30 am

What times have MEA's African routes been operated at generally?
 
SafetyDude
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:45 am

While there are many airports in Africa, not all are suitable for handling a large aircraft, and even then, some airlines would prefer not to fly into those airports in emergency situations. ETOPS also permits the airline to take a route that does not go over airspace that they do not want to be in.

BA's G-BNWM, G-BNWN, and G-BNWH (amongst others) are ETOPS 767s. WM and WN are used quite frequently for Africa routes, although WH is the MAN-JFK aircraft. To get a complete list of BA 767 "Africa" aircrafts, do a search on them.

 Smile
-Will
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Rick767
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:54 am

Arcano

The map is not accurate, many of the African airfields assumed to be open on that map are not open by night, therefore after the hours of darkess ETOPS120 or 138 is needed on these routes.

This brings home the fact that it is all about suitable airfields not just adequate ones, so ETOPS varies depending on the weather at each station, time of day, etc...

It is not a blanket rule.
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LRGT
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:55 am

I am aware of what ETOPS means. The reason I started this thread was I was shocked after the person insisted JFK/FLL and JFK/SJU was ETOPS. I figured some people on Airliners need a lesson on that so I thought this was a good topic for that.  Smile
Don't bring up the NW DC9's unless you have to!
 
SafetyDude
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:57 am

I will add, for the record, that on all of my jetBlue flights, they have always shown the lifevest as part of the safety demo. I do not know why someone insisted that the 320s are ETOPS.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
coa764
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:58 am

F9 has also recently received this rating and when flying out of RSW now the route ya over the gulf. It makes the flight a lot faster.
And that airlines that want to fly over water must have a DIFFERENT over water rating that has nothing to do with ETOPS

Then why did you bring up F9 flying over the gulf in an ETOPS thread? I read your posts and to someone doesn't understand could mistake F9 is flying ETOPS over the gulf. I was trying to clarify that when flying 50 NM from shore all you need it rafts/vests and nothing more. If your flight has rafts and vest and heads out over water 60 minutes from an adequate airport then it is in ETOPS.. My point was that F9 will never be in an ETOPS environment flying the gulf/AR routes...

Arcano
While your map did include all of Africa one thing you have to take into account is were the ETOPS alternates are located, are they open and do they have weather minimums to list as an alternate.... If you only have a few ETOPS alternates then you can loose a lot of that coverage to the point of not being able to operate on certain routes.
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
ual747den
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Mon Jul 26, 2004 7:02 am

Coa764,
You are exactly about F9 and the gulf. The thread was not about only ETOPS but about people being amazed that there were ETOPS routes over Africa. I was trying to show that there were 2 different regs and that water and ETOPS are not the same. I think that for people reading all the threads all the way down they would understand that but yes if you just started at my post you might be confused.
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
SafetyDude
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Mon Jul 26, 2004 7:03 am

Here are the BA 767 Africa routes:

First on the BA B-767-300ER's has not been completely eliminated.

All of these routes are operated with a B-767-300ER and offer First.

TLV, BWI, ACC, CCS, DAR, and EBB.

ACC = Accra, GH
CCS = Caracas, VE
DAR = Dar Es Salaam, TZ
EBB = Entebbe, UG


The information above was accurate during the winter.
From: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1364671/4/, which was a pretty interesting topic that you might want to consider reading.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
BA
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RE: Etops Over Land In Parts Of Africa!

Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:17 am

Donder10,

MEA's West African routes in the summer time depart Beirut at around 12PM because of the increased fleet utilization for the summer season.

During the rest of the year, the flights are red-eyes departing Beirut at 2:05AM.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran