Dr.DTW
Topic Author
Posts: 246
Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 1:13 pm

"Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:47 am

I was just curious if the term "heavy" is used in non-US airspace.

In watching my JP DVD's from around Europe and Africa, and also listening to Dubai ATC, none of the flight crews, or ATC, use "heavy" to desingate a wide-bodied aircraft.

Is this term confined to the US???

 
Capt.Fantastic
Posts: 811
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 1999 4:01 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:51 am

Now that you mention it, I've noticed that as well.

Also, many foreign airports use the phrase "Line up and Hold" or Line up and Wait" as opposed to "Taxi into position and hold". Of course, they mean the same thing - just tomato and tomaato.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17053
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:57 am

Heavy is a purely US terminology. Not sure about Canada.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
CKT523
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 2:56 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:10 am

I used to work for XLA and we flew the 767 which were still on the Icelandic register then, and we used the "heavy" designator on a number of flights, but im sure someone told me it wasn't simply an a/c type thing, it was down to gross weight on the day and some a/c types such as the B727 have used it, due to them being heavy that day, to let the ATC controller know that they were heavier than normal for seperation purposes.Not sure if thats true ot not though.
 
JeffDCA
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:12 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:10 am

Heavy is a purely US terminology. Not sure about Canada.

Incorrect. Although there are some differences between US and European (for example) terminology, like Capt.Fantastic pointed out, heavy is a standard term, certainly used throughout the US and Europe. It's FAA (US) and JAA (European) regulation to use heavy in the call sign of an aircraft in the heavy category, at least on first contact with the particular ATC unit being contacted.

Cheers,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1560
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:27 am

I can't address international airspace, however in US airspace the controller is required to use the term "heavy" in radio conversations in the terminal airspace, but not en route airspace, with the exception of issuing traffic to another aircraft on a heavy.

( From the controllers handbook) Heavies are aircraft capable of takeoff weights more than 255,000 pounds whether or not they are operating at this weight during a particular phase of flight.

B757-300, B767, B747, B777,DC-10, MD-11,Some DC-8s, Some B707s, A300,330,340, L-1011, C5, C141,C17,B-52, Some KC-135s, VC-10, IL-96.....a few others.

I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
sacflyer
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:19 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:08 am

I believe use of the word "Heavy" also has to do with the flight performance of the aircraft, and that is why the term is most applicable to terminal areas. Some heavy aircraft may have problems staying below the terminal area airspeed limits and the 250 knot rule below 10,000 feet, eg the Concorde.
So for flight safety and performance, heavies may fly faster.

For example, a T-38, due to its performance characteristics, has an FAA exemption that allows it fly at 300 knots when other aircraft are restricted to 250 knots. You wouldn't think of a 12,500 lb two seat trainer as a heavy, but it is basically the same principle.

I'm just happy that RR ratings can't be in negative numbers!
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17053
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:20 am

IIRC, it's only North America/USA, but hey I have been wrong before.

Heavies are aircraft capable of takeoff weights more than 255,000 pounds whether or not they are operating at this weight during a particular phase of flight.

The exception is the 757. It's a "heavy" despite weighing in under the limit since it produces a disproportionately powerful wake.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
JeffDCA
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:12 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:43 am

IIRC, it's only North America/USA, but hey I have been wrong before.

According to the JAA ATPL Communications notes it's Europe as well.

Cheers,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:44 am

The exception is the 757. It's a "heavy" despite weighing in under the limit since it produces a disproportionately powerful wake.

Not always, when I flew the 57 a few years ago, UA had channel 9 open, and "Heavy" was never part of our call sign.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1560
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:32 am

Sacflyer, Nope.

Starlionblue, B757s capable of 255,000 or more only, not all 757s. ATC does however have additional wake turbulence separation standards behind any 757.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
maiznblu_757
Posts: 4952
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:05 pm

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:36 am

Heavy is a purely US terminology. Not sure about Canada

They also used "Heavy" at Kai Tak...

B757s capable of 255,000 or more only, not all 757s. ATC does however have additional wake turbulence separation standards behind any 757.

ATA uses "Heavy" for their 757 flights...

[Edited 2004-07-25 23:37:52]
 
bar032
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:41 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:53 am

According to JAR, an a/c in the wake turbulence category "heavy" should on initial contact with an ATC unit include the word "heavy" immidiately after its callsign.
An a/c is included in wake turbulence category "heavy" when its MTOW is 136,000 kg or more.

Hope that helps!
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate
 
JeffDCA
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:12 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:57 am

Nice one Bar032, i've been looking for that MTOW figure everywhere!  Smile

Cheers,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
Dr.DTW
Topic Author
Posts: 246
Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 1:13 pm

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:04 am

Regarding the 757, only the -300's are designated "heavy."

Dr.DTW
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17053
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:02 am

I am so wrong today  Big grin It's great that the rest of you have been so nice about it. Kudos to you and more users should be gracious as you instead of just yelling: "MORON!"  Big grin
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1560
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:49 am

Starlionblue.
Many come here to learn, If we all knew the answers there would be no point in having the forums, except maybe for those who want to yell "MORON" and not be gracious. Someday they will learn, it takes too much effort to be an asshole.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
PHLapproach
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:37 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:06 pm

You will hear ATA, NW, CO and Condor use the heavy designation for their 753's since Boeing did extend the fuselage. Therefore, increasing the weight above 255,000. The 752 on the other hand (correct me if i'm wrong) weighs 240,000lbs. I have never ever heard a 752 called a "heavy" simply because of the letters showing its a 752 and of the wake turbulance "H/L/B752" (I can't remember). You will also always hear an ATC let an a/c on final or taking the active of a 75 in the vicinity and "Caution wake turbulance"
 
nalez
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:19 pm

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:23 pm

Correct on the 753/752 thing.

I often spot at MSP with the scanner in hand.
753's are called as heavies.
752's are not called as heavies.
ATC does call wake on all 753's and 752's if an aircraft is landing/departing within a 5
mile gap of the 757.
 
POSITIVE RATE
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 11:31 am

Heavies

Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:40 pm

In Australia we don't use the term "Heavy" at all. Even 747's just use their callsign and that's it. E.g CX 105.
 
maiznblu_757
Posts: 4952
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:05 pm

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:43 pm

Regarding the 757, only the -300's are designated "heavy."

How wrong you are... When I lived in Maryland two years ago, I used to visit DCA all the time. The 757-200's from MDW used "Heavy" in the callsign. NAS North Island had an ATA 757-200 a few weeks ago... "Heavy" was used.


 
buckfifty
Posts: 1278
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:05 pm

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:24 pm

The book may say one thing, but the only time we've ever had to use the term 'heavy' is for the North American ports, where it is applied religiously for every transmission. Not enroute over Europe for the most part except for the U.K. (where you will probably only hear it entering the FIR or terminal area), and certainly not in Hong Kong.

On my last flight into Vancouver, the ATC did a traffic report for a Cheyenne flying towards enroute Tofino. "Your traffic is at your 12, an Airbus 340 heavy." That was fun.
 
ATCisgreat
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:19 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:12 pm

With us in Maastricht airspace we as air traffic controllers don't use the term "heavy". But quite often pilots coming back from the States use it in addition to their callsign, I think it's just a habit they keep during the whole flight. So it can be heard every day in European airspace.

Byebye
Next: 26.05. DUS-LHR BA939, LHR-HKG BA25; 01.06 HKG-LHR BA32; 02.06. LHR-DUS BA938
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17053
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:45 pm

I don't want to gloat, but it feels good I wasn't completely off base with either "heavy" or the 752.

Ok I do want to gloat a bit Big grin
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Hirnie
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 7:13 pm

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 9:09 pm

In Germany the term "heavy" is only used by the pilot doing an "initial call" on a frequency. The controller doesn`t have to use this frase. After the first call the pilot can omit the "heavy".
 
gkirk
Posts: 23345
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 9:10 pm

757-200s in the UK at least, use the heavy callsign due to the strong wake turbulence following them.
Rick767 and Crosswind will know more about this though.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
levg79
Posts: 918
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2003 10:59 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:50 am

Heavy is a purely US terminology. Not sure about Canada.

I flew UA's 777 JFK-NRT-JFK and was listening to Ch. 9 all the time. The term heavy was used only between JFK and the Toronto Center boundary. If wasn't used even over Alaska. On the return flight, captain said that for those who want to listen Ch. 9, our callsign would be "united eight zero zero". The first time the term heavy was used was on initial contact with the New York Center.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
Dr.DTW
Topic Author
Posts: 246
Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 1:13 pm

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:09 pm

Maiznblu_757..

I've been listening to ATC for over 20 years, all over the country, and I have never heard any 757 referred as "heavy" until NW brought the -300 to DTW.

What you heard at DCA was probably an ATA 757-300 referred to as "heavy." I have listened to DCA ATC frequently in the past, and I have never heard a -200 referred to in this way. The other possible explanation is that the ATC guidlines at DCA have changed, and now all 757's are referred to as heavy, but I doubt this has happened.
 
AWspicious
Posts: 2780
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 7:47 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:30 pm

"Heavy is a purely US terminology. Not sure about Canada."

You can include Canada in this category. When traffic is a bit close, the contorllers will indicate the aircraft type that is ahead of the incomming or departing aircraft, also.
Nevermind political correctness - Envision using your turn signals!
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3960
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:29 pm

Levg79- If you had kept up with the convo earlier, you would have noticed that heavy is only used on approach tower, and ground frequencies, not on the high altitude center frequencies (unless you really feel like calling yourself heavy). That is why you didn't hear the heavy tag.




I have heard of the occasional 752 using a heavy callsign, but have never actually seen it.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
caribb
Posts: 1502
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 1999 6:33 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Wed Jul 28, 2004 12:49 am

I've heard it used in Montreal airspace so it's used in Canada.
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1560
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:11 am

Dr.DTW,
The guidlines at DCA (by law,and agency orders)can't be different. The "heavy" subject is in the form of an order, not a guideline.
Do a search for FAAH 7110.65, somewhere (faa.gov or NATCA.org) will be a link to that order. You strike me as an enthusiast who would enjoy some of the reading.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
FinnWings
Posts: 633
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 6:03 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:38 pm

I'm a little bit confused....  Confused

JAR rules clearly determines that "heavy" term should be always used in European airspace when making initial contact. So basically, everytime you change frequency you should add "heavy" to your callsign if your aircraft belongs to that category.

Now it seems that "heavy" isn't used at some countries here in Europe as it should. I'm wondering how can it be possible?

Even if the national aviation rules of some country (which is JAA country) determines that "heavy" callsign isn't needed, those aren't valid... Always if JAA rules are more strict you MUST follow those no matter what the national rules are.

What do you think...?

Best Regards,
FinnWings
 
maiznblu_757
Posts: 4952
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:05 pm

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:00 am

What you heard at DCA was probably an ATA 757-300 referred to as "heavy

Nope, they were ATA 757-200's thank you very much.... for insulting my recognition capabilities of my favorite airliner.  Big grin
 
PanAmerican
Posts: 353
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:32 pm

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:49 pm

Is the heavy also used for Air Force flights? E.g. do they call the VC-25A "Air Force One heavy" when Bush is onboard as opposed to just "Air Force One" when he is onboard a smaller plane? What about the C-5s or KC-10As, they are all heavy, do they use that, too?

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy PA
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
RareBear
Posts: 540
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:11 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:14 pm

The term "heavy" is used for Air Force planes. The C-17s assigned to Charleston AFB in South Carolina use the callsign "Reach XXX heavy"
I can't recall hearing the term "heavy" applied to Air Force 1 the times I've heard it on ATC.
Illegitimus non carborundum
 
filejw
Posts: 312
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 2:58 am

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:58 pm

I don't know the exact wt. but some 757 200 's do have a GW at or above 255,000 # and ATA is an operator of high GW 757 200's.
 
PanAmerican
Posts: 353
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:32 pm

RE: "Heavy" Used In Non-US Airspace?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:30 pm

Ok, thanks RareBear. That is interesting, I just wonder why they don't apply this rule on all flights then.

 Smile PA
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.