airmale
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Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:43 am

Since every Asian airline operates to the country under their own titles, why did JL have to create the JAA sunbsidiary? considering that JAA at times operates JAL aircraft there (same goes for the Europeans) who are they trying to fool? I doubt China ever orderd this.

Also would like to know why arent Emirates or Qatar Airways adding Taipei to their passenger network? Arabs dont have a cosy realtionship with Communist China to be afraidd of hurting ties by going to Taiwan, at present Saudi Arabian cargo and Emirates Cargo fly there only, will they ever add passenger services too?
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kaitak
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:53 am

The JAA situation goes back to when Japan began recognising PRC as China, in place of Taiwan. The problem was that although air travel between Japan and Taiwan was (and is still, very) lucrative, you have to recognise the country with which you're operating a bilateral agreement. So, the compromise was an offshoot which didn't have the Japanese flag on the tail; it was a convenience carrier, purely for the purposes of operating the route.

Many other carriers had the same situation; Australia/Swissair/British Asia all were subsidiaries of the main carrier - QF/SR/BA, but they didn't have flags on their livery and in the case of BA and SR, where the flag was part of the tail design, it had to be changed. (Interestingly, SR's cross caused it some problems in flying to Saudi, as they get upset at anyone else's "religious" symbols).

As for QR and EK, both have started services to Shanghai, so that might be part of the reason, but another reason might be that BR and CI operate to DXB already and there may simply not be the market for EK; can't believe the market from DOH to TPE is not great.
 
B2443
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:57 am

"Arabs dont have a cosy realtionship with Communist China "...

I thought Arabs have always had a "cozy" relationship with China...politics aside, I don't think China can order a country to fly or not to fly to Taiwan. As times, BA had BA Asia, KLM had KLM Asia, and Swiss had Swiss Asia fly into the island, same case with JAL. I've always wondered why.
 
B2443
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:00 am

but they didn't have flags on their livery

Certainly not applicable to UA/NW, even KE for that matter.
 
airmale
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Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:03 am

BR quit Dubai in the late 90's and CI in the early 80's, CI used to served Abu Dhabi too, which they also quit in 2003, so there's no direct service.

I sincerely doubt the Swissair-Saudi Arabia story, on the contrary Muslims do believe Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) wasnt crucified and it was some one else in his place, so the Cross is NOT considered a religious symbol by us, and it does not make us anti-Christian.
.....up there with the best!
 
swissgabe
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:09 am

Japan Airlines did the same thing as most other carriers in Europe did. They flew into Taiwan (ROC) with another title. Like Swissair Asia, KLM Asia, etc due to political reason.

Swissair/Swiss indeed had some problems in Saudi Arabia. I mean if is a cross of a country flag and doesn't have any religions meaning. Guess the Saudis got that as well.
Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
 
airmale
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Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:26 am

Isnt it about time this Asia farce ended?
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stirling
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:27 am

The CROSS is not strictly a CHRISTIAN symbol.

It was in use well before the edict of Milan in 312 A.D., but not by CHRISTIANS. As a matter of fact, the CROSS was not widely accepted until the 6th century.

The ancient Egyptians used something called the Cross of Horus, featured in many heiroglyphs and carved into many sepulchers and monuments. Usually shown held in the hand, it denotes life, and is also known as the KEY OF LIFE.

Besides the Egyptians, the CROSS was used by ancient Greeks, Phoenicians, Aztecs, Babylonians and east Indians to name a few.

As for the SWISS Cross, the origins are still a source of debate. It has definite roots in the Holy Roman Empire, as well as being the common method of recognition during times of battle....It's correct dimensions are that it must be 1/6th higher than it is wide. This was determined in the late 1889, abandoning the previous SWISS CROSS, which was made up of 5 equal squares.

With that said, I would like to know more credible and factual information on the Saudi disapproval of the SWISS aircraft bearing the CROSS, and not hearsay or speculation.
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warren747sp
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:37 am

It really depends if you can stand up to unreasonable pressure from PRC or not. Most US carriers and others don't give a damn and fly with their U.S. flag painted on them.
Most European countries and carriers are more eager to appease to China will add "Asia" on their existing title to please the Communist Chinese.
The Saudi's use to have political ties with Taiwan and had flights there. However the PRC market is much bigger than Taiwan and most smaller carriers choose to devote their limited resources there.
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boeingnut
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:43 am

One sidenote of this fiasco was that back when Tokyo Narita opened up, Air China (along with all the other int't carriers) moved their ops there. But they raised a stink about not wanting CI to be allowed there, so CI stayed at Tokyo Haneda for a while. I think it was just in the last few years that CI moved over to Narita. Quite a shame actually. I heard that a lot of Taiwanese businessmen liked landing so much closer to the city than Narita...
Excuse me, but what does God need with a starship?
 
warren747sp
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:52 am

Not to mention all the Japanese tourist go Honolulu becasue Haneda is so much closer than Narita. It was an extremely lucrative route for CI and JAL and ANA among others did not like it. so Despite protest from China, they ordered CI to move to Narita just like all the other carriers.
747SP
 
B2443
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 5:27 am

"Most US carriers and others don't give a damn and fly with their U.S. flag painted on them."

I wonder if they will ever give a d*mn. And when they do, what will happen to Taiwan? The sad thing is it is not up to Taiwan.

But they raised a stink about not wanting CI to be allowed there, so CI stayed at Tokyo Haneda for a while.

They never had a problem seeing each other next to each other at HKG, even more often than NRT.

My question is why the new CI livery does not carry ROC flag? Its old livery did. On the other hand, they would have flown to PVG if they hadn't changed.
 
keno
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:19 am

Despite protest from China, they ordered CI to move to Narita just like all the other carriers.

All these sound very silly me. Why should PRC be treated any special in Tokyo? 99% of other cities in the world only has 1 large civillian airport to deal with. If Air China can share with China Airlines or Eva in Changi for example, I don't see why they can't operate in the same airport elsewhere. And that includes Tokyo.
 
wants2fly
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:08 am

This is just to show how bully People's Republic of China (PRC) is.
Taiwan, Republic Of China (ROC), has been trying to re-join the UN for many years, since ROC was one of the founding countries, but PRC always vote against it as it assumed the ROC position on UN.
As a Taiwanese American, its sad to see countries obey China's One China policy and not allowing Taiwan to have the same privileges. Taiwan has done so many good things to promote a peaceful global community but with the threat of China invading or overpowering Taiwan, China should be the one on the "bad" list.
I was reading the Chinese Newspaper recently and it reports that China wants to promote one of the South China airport as the new gateway to Asia. This leaves a very uneasy feeling for Hong Kong as its Airport gets the business from all of the world. Isn't Hong Kong part of China? Why is China competing with one of their own?
Just my 2 cents

Wants2fly
 
SafetyDude
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:16 am

Arabs dont have a cosy realtionship with Communist China
Do note that there is a difference between China and Taiwan.

Personally, I think airlines having to create new logos is ridiculous. While I can understand the incident where VS covered the Scarlet Lady, logos are logos and if a country does not want a logo, they should be better of now wanting the airline.  Insane

-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
carnoc
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:51 am

In regard to whether it is right to have "One China Policy" or not. I urge you to please get a history book before you actually comment.

Although I do agree that airlines shouldn't be 'required' to set up a un-existing 'new company' or create a new logo in order to service Taiwan, but you do have to realize that politics is in every single industry, and civil aviation is just one of many.

For the arising issue between new Guangzhou airport and the existing Hong Kong airport, I don't see a problem there. Please do remember that competition is good for the general public overall, and especially there would still be enormous differences between CAN and HKG.

Cheers.
 
je89_w
Crew
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:20 pm

Despite protest from China, they ordered CI to move to Narita just like all the other carriers.

I would imagine CI being reluctant to move to HND, since in the past, they adverstised flights from Honolulu to Tokyo . . . they would mention flying into Tokyo's Haneda Airport, which is way closer to the city, instead of the remote NRT.

I also heard that CI flew into HND because BR flew into NRT. Now whether that is true or not, I don't know. As KEno pointed out, it does sound a bit silly.
 
alexchao
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:29 pm

When BR first began flying to Tokyo, they also flew to HND.

I think the move to NRT for CI and BR had more to do with logistics. Japan probably wanted to make Narita the main international airport with Haneda as the the main domestic airport. Plus, the move for CI and BR to NRT began AFTER the completion of a new runway, which would help reduce congestion.

As for the "One China Policy," this forum isn't a good place for politics. I guess we should just hope for a peaceful resolution in the future. As for aviation, I hope cross-strait direct flights will start soon.
 
warren747sp
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:36 pm

CI no longer carry the ROC flag because they were hoping to fly to China one day and vice versa on all the Chinese carrier removing their Red flag is they want to fly to Taiwan.
CI flew to HND only because it was told so by the Japanese gov. it took BR many years to be able to serve HND as well instead of NRT. However, they are taking too much business away from JAL and Japan Asia, so they ordered all the carriers to NRT now.
@Carnoc
Politics isn't everything except in China and all communist country.
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B2443
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:45 pm

This leaves a very uneasy feeling for Hong Kong as its Airport gets the business from all of the world. Isn't Hong Kong part of China? Why is China competing with one of their own?

Sorry I don't see the logics here: "HK being part of China" --> "competing with one of their own"? Do you think HKG enjoys unbalanced and often one-sided privileges? Sorry it'll only get worse for HKG since the epic center has already started shifting north. PVG will be the star again as it was before there was NRT or HKG.
 
BN747
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Ara

Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:29 pm

The Saudi's use to have political ties with Taiwan and had flights there. However the PRC market is much bigger than Taiwan and most smaller carriers choose to devote their limited resources there.

I don't think this true, as one having lived in Taiwan for a few years (and where I got bit by the aviation bug) I don't recall SV ever landing there. I saw anf photo'd the 1st 747 svc by NW there, followed by SQ. I remember strange visits by carriers like Donaldson 707 (UK) Air Siam 707 and remember (photographs) of the CI fleet when it had Caravelles, 3-727-100s B-1818, B-1820 & B-1822. First 707s B-1824,26,28 & B-1830 -- followed by two more later. Cathay CV880s & 707s, I remember the 1st JAA DC-8s into Sungshan,etc. I'm sure in my parent's basement somwhere My 1st ever spotter's logs still exist. And from that point on I kept an eye on civil aviation to Taiwan (via OAGs) and never recall any SV or any carrier going there. Is there some info you can offer on this on the contrary?

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
warren747sp
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:02 am

@BN747
I don't know when you were in Taiwan but Taiwan and Saudi use to have very close ties. CI use to fly to Riyadh and Dahrain. SV had limited service for a little while in the early 80's.
If you look at the Taiwanese Aviation market, AA , DL, AF, BA, LH, SAA have all pulled out of Taiwan not a good sign.
747SP
 
BN747
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Ara

Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:02 am

Warren I was there in the 70s and 1980s. Yes CI did go to the Kingdom. But SV to TPE? I'd think that John Yu or Ben Po would have photos of that and I myself don't recall that service at all.

As for AA , DL, AF, BA, LH I'm very aware of their spotty services to TPE... esp. the US carriers. AA and DL were never serious Asia players... and still aren't at least not in the leagues NW & UA. And I'm aware of British Asia and LH.. I have shots of them there. As for SAA.. when were they there?


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
carnoc
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:48 pm

Well, as someone else mentioned earlier, this is not good place to discuss politics, so I would not like to argue with others from a political perspective, but history is history, no-one could deny the truth.

By the way, I am not anti-TW & I do have a lot of Taiwanese friends, and you simply cannot deny that at least 30% Taiwanese people recognize themselves part of Chinese people, so I wonder if all Taiwanese really see their 'country' as an independent state, then why the hell they still see themselves as Chinese, but not purely Taiwanese? So, get a life & see the real world!

Best Regards.
 
wants2fly
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 12:25 am

Let me first apologize if I offended anybody with my comment on the One China policy.
I DO agree this Forum is no place for politics but the reason why some airlines add the word "Asia" at the end is due to political issues between that country, China and Taiwan. Isn't this correct?

I am proud to be a Taiwanese.... I think there is an unnecessary comment on the Taiwanese people posted earlier. I guess I am part of the 70% and I DO have a life and I DO get to see the real world....
 
B2443
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 1:41 am

CI no longer carry the ROC flag because they were hoping to fly to China one day and vice versa on all the Chinese carrier removing their Red flag is they want to fly to Taiwan.

Not quite..Air China still carries the red flag, not on tail but right infront of words "Air China" on its fuselage. Guess they don't want to fly to Taiwan before it is united?
 
SafetyDude
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 2:37 am

Not quite..Air China still carries the red flag, not on tail but right infront of words "Air China" on its fuselage. Guess they don't want to fly to Taiwan before it is united?
I could not find the flag on the fuselage. Is it on both sides?

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
jcs17
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 3:38 am

In regard to whether it is right to have "One China Policy" or not. I urge you to please get a history book before you actually comment.

You need to get a better grasp of history before you start commenting on this issue. Before 1895, Taiwan had only been in mainland China's control for eight years, before that it was largely independent. In fact, the Treaty of Shimonoseki which was created at the end of the Sino-Japanese war in 1895, China ceded Taiwan to Japan for perpetuity. Taiwan declared its independence from Japan later that year, unhappy with the thought of being under the Japanese government with the Japanese eventually surpressing the independence movement. The Japanese stayed in control of the island until the end of WWII. After the war the allied forces stated that Chiang Kai-Shek's Chinese forces would be in control of the island temporarily. Eventually, Kai-Shek's would be forced to flee mainland China. The bottom line is that there has been very little Chinese control of Taiwan since its inception. In fact, if anything, Japan should control the rights to the island. To say that Taiwan is part of China is grossly unfair and a gross misrepresentation of history.

As for the issue at hand, the Saudis have had closer relations to the Taiwanese for many than the mainlanders have. Most of the Arab world resents Red China for their crackdown on Islam in the eastern provinces.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
B2443
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 7:25 am

I could not find the flag on the fuselage. Is it on both sides?

The red square before the word "Air China" is the flag...and yes, on both sides.
 
B2443
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 7:38 am

Most of the Arab world resents Red China for their crackdown on Islam in the eastern provinces.

which provinces were these? I thought they were western regions like Xinjiang, Ningxia. Shaanxi also has a prominent Muslim population.

Before 1895, Taiwan had only been in mainland China's control for eight years, before that it was largely independent.

Unfortunately, the history did not start in 1895. The Ming (1300AD)and Qing (1600AD) Dynasties all had control over Taiwan. To conclude Taiwan's destiny based on the last 100 years is absurd and utterly unfair.

In 1949 the fact that CKS fled to Taiwan indicated Taiwan was indeed part of China, otherwise he would have been invaded a "foreign country". The fact that the Qing government was able to "cede" Taiwan to Japan as part of war settlement precisely indicated Taiwan was under China's control, otherwise, how could they have done it?
 
alexchao
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:29 am

I could not find the flag on the fuselage. Is it on both sides?

The red square before the word "Air China" is the flag...and yes, on both sides.


I think SafetyDude was just kidding when he said he couldn't find the flag.  Smile But it is nice to be reminded that the "red sqaure" is PRC's flag.
 
OB1504
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:03 am

What happens if say, a British Airways Asia aircraft has a technical problem and BA sends in an airplane in regular c/s to replace it? Or would they rather cancel the flight? If they sent in an aircraft in regular c/s then would there be some sort of scandal or would it be okay since it was just for one day?
 
alexchao
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RE: Why JAA And Not JAL To Taiwan? And Why Not Arabs?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 1:22 pm

Actually, I don't think the livery really matters because I've seen BA, SwissAir (back in the day), JAL, Air Nippon, and KLM send in their regular C/S into Taipei.

However, I guess it just has to operated as the subsidiary.