AirlineFanatic
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F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:01 am

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040729/lath127_1.html

At least they tried LAX and realize QUICKLY that it just wasn't working. Sometimes I wonder why some companies don't stick to their business models. LAX clearly wasn't a Frontier recognized city to introduce all that new service - had AA/UA/WN introduced new service they would have done well.

Frontier Airlines, Inc. (Nasdaq: FRNT - News) today reported a net loss of $6.6 million

From Frontier CEO:

"Our expansion during the quarter included our continued focus on our Denver hub, and the introduction of Los Angeles as a focus city for Frontier. While the growth in the Denver hub met our expectations, the services introduced in the Los Angeles market clearly did not perform to the level we had anticipated. While we remain committed to the Los Angeles strategy, the disappointing financial performance of this focus city, which contributed significantly to our loss, led us to adjust our August schedule to appropriately reallocate our resources to better performing opportunities."
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:05 am

You missed a bit - an important bit:

Frontier CEO: "...we remain committed to the Los Angeles strategy."

Given the loads on, say LAX/PHL, I would say they have good reason to remain committed to LAX.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
airplaneboy
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Fri Jul 30, 2004 5:49 pm

Also, our LAX-MCI and LAX-STL loads have remained consistently high and full on both daily frequencies, which puzzles many company employees as to why they'd be reduced to just one. But as we've been told, the frequency reduction in these two markets is only seasonal. I guess they don't there are other areas they want to use the aircraft in for that time (perhaps CUN).

Happy flying!

Hi Mariner!

Regards,

Travis/LAX  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
geg2rap
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:34 pm

F9 is also bailing on RAP...pulling ZK service on Aug 16 after the Sturgis Rally...interesting because many many times this summer they bumped people for weight
Jeremy
 
MAH4546
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:07 am

F9 is also bailing on RAP...pulling ZK service on Aug 16 after the Sturgis Rally...interesting because many many times this summer they bumped people for weight


F9 has no say on what Great Lakes does. Great Lakes probably lost EAS subsidies.
a.
 
geg2rap
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:15 am

MAH,
actually F9 did decide this one, they gave ZK $$ to start up the route, those $$ expire august 1 and hence they are bailing on aug 23 after the sturgis rally


http://www.greatlakesav.com/html/cease_rap.html

jeremy
 
MAH4546
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:17 am

Thanks for the correction. I didn't know that F9 did that. I know they handed over ICT to ZK, but didn't think they did any other co-scheduling.
a.
 
SegmentKing
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:37 am

Great Lakes only gets EAS money on half of their markets out of Denver. Rapid City was one of the markets in which Frontier had asked Lakes to operate out of the market. I've been told that most of the problems with it were yield-related

I believe that Grand Junction is another market in which Frontier had asked Great Lakes to enter as well..

-n
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
airplaneboy
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:34 am

The last sentence in reply 2 should read:

"I guess there are other areas they want to use the aircraft in for that time (perhaps CUN)."

I was up a bit past my bed time! hehe.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Happy flying everyone.


Travis/LAX
 
flashmeister
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:26 am

As I recall, there's a restriction on the F9 codeshare flights operated by Great Lakes from DEN where you have to connect onto a F9 flight (not sure about jetExpress) at DEN to buy a F9-coded ticket on Great Lakes. For instance, you could go Grand Junction-Denver-Portland on an F9 ticket, but not Grand Junction-Denver.

Questions:

- Does this apply to the routes that F9 has requested/subsidized as well? That seems silly if it does?

- Can you connect on another Great Lakes flight, say Grand Junction-Denver-Pierre on an F9 ticket?
 
SuperDash
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Sun Aug 01, 2004 3:43 am

"...we remain committed to the Los Angeles strategy."

Well at least for this week. Or does the LA strategy mean, Denver? Just because the flight is full doesn't mean it's making money. KC and Philly are both Southwest routes. The fares won't get better over time. And Frontier has made the schedules worse in KC and St Louis. Frontier has proved they can fill planes with leisure passengers, but they still struggle at getting higher fare business passenger (or the business pax they do get are paying dirt fares). It also appears that TED or Fred, (whatever they are called) has taken a bite out of Frontier. Fred has probably taken three or four bites out of United. And don't forget, the entire LA Basin, Frontier is also closing Ontario. So even less exposure for Frontier in the LA area. Those Ontario passengers are not going to drive to LAX. It's good to see Frontier slow down their expansion. They do need to get their house in order. Fuel and Denver costs will be high for sometime to come.
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Sun Aug 01, 2004 5:15 am

Superdash:

Um - as usual, I find some of your conclusions curious. While PHL, DCA and IAD might - stress "might" - be considered "lesiure" destinations, I doubt that BWI is, yet the Washington DC area is very strong for Frontier, as are several business destinations.

PDX is a lesiure destination? Or IAH? Or HOU? Or ATL? Or DFW? Or SEA? All have seen increased frequency.

You also seem to ignore the ruthless fare wars of the early summer (esp. LAX/MSP) and crude oil at more than $40 a barrel.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/business/article/0,1299,DRMN_4_3077684,00.html

I am fairly sure that Frontier is aware of the price of oil because they have taken a 25% hedge at $36 a barrel.

As to Ted and DEN/ONT, I cheer the decision. ONT was never a strong market for Frontier, and I don't know how the CASM of a CRJ can compete with Ted's fire sale fares, so better, I think, to deploy the aircraft elsewhere.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
F9Fan
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Sun Aug 01, 2004 7:32 am

I also heard that ZK is dropping ORF, which will completely eliminate service to that city. Most people at ORF were quite willing to drive two hours to OMA to fly the cheaper fares on WN.

As for the one who wondered about booking F9 to travel, say, GJT-ICT on ZK directly through F9. I don't think you can, but you should be able to book directly with ZK.

F9Fan
 
ual747den
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:34 am

SuperDash
You have no idea what you are talking about!
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
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ERJ170
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:43 am

ORF is Norfolk, VA... which ZK nor F9 flies...
Aiming High and going far..
 
geg2rap
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Sun Aug 01, 2004 1:36 pm

if you fly on zk, you have to buy it from zk's site (suprising they do sell them but I have bought from them before)
pierre i think is a ua codeshare only....don't know on grand junction
rap problems were reveune....business people had their ff program of choice...and people who are low price shoppers chose f9/zk...shouldn't have suprised them as they really didn't put anything into marketing in rap...or pointing out they F9 benefits...also UA has a call center in rap...some loyalty trying to keep our only call center left open....(eddie bauer conseco and ge capitol moved call centers out of rapid)
FOod for thought
Jeremy
 
uadc8contrail
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Sun Aug 01, 2004 1:53 pm

f9fan,
orf=norfolk VA
ofk=norfolk NE

i am puzzled by jeffs report i was under the assumption all l.c.c. were making money and only the legacys were money losing idiots for not adopting the l.c.c. strategy......i guess some were correct....ted is a flop and get back to true mainline service........
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
SuperDash
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:35 am

Mariner -
Before you go flying off the wall about someone posting something negative about Frontier....Read my post.

I never said anything about leisure destinations. I said leisure passengers. Big difference. Here's the quote so you don't have to tab back up.

Frontier has proved they can fill planes with leisure passengers, but they still struggle at getting higher fare business passenger (or the business pax they do get are paying dirt fares).

Portland is both a leisure and a business destination. Let me call in a buddy of mine to prove my point. faremeasure.com

At Portland the average fare to Denver (one way) is $163. Frontier's fare is only $137. Proving that both Alaska and United are getting higher fares from business passengers. This is an O&D stat, so don't talk about any flow passengers. But I am sure Frontier didn't get many high fare business passengers making a connection via Denver either. By the way, Seattle, Houston, Atlanta, and Dallas are all in the same boat. Don't take my word for it...check out the website for yourself.

But hey, Frontier is also starting everything to Cancun which really is a leisure destination. Gee, I wonder why they did that versus Boston? And don't give me that gates excuse. Alaska found a gate at Boston. And so has everyone else that has started service there.

Fare wars like LAX/MSP? Who started that one? And they didn't know? Come on Mariner.

BTW- Many of those adds like Seattle, Portland, San Jose were just summer seasonal adds. Nothing to get too excited about. Oh yeah, Summer is the leisure period of the year.

I guess I don't know what I am talking about.

cheers,
SuperDash
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Mon Aug 02, 2004 6:17 am

SuperDash:

If saying that I find some of your conclusions curious is "flying off the handle", then I guess you and I speak a different language.

Faremeasure is terrific, but not entirely reliable for what is happening this summer, since the data they presently use is from 3Q 2003.

Checking Travelocity (for this summer), the average lowest fare DEN/PDX with specific dates that I could find (F9/UAL) is $386. There are cheaper fares with flexible dates, but these exact same flexible date, lower fares are offered by UAL as well. There are also cheaper fares offered by other airlines (HP), but not as non-stops.

"But hey, Frontier is also starting everything to Cancun..."

With all the new flights in place, by November, from all destinations, Frontier will have an average of 3 x daily flights to Cancun (it could be 3.2 x daily).

This compares with 7 x daily into the DC area, for example.

Fare wars like LAX/MSP? Frontier started it. Did I say otherwise?

Increased summer service to the cities I cited? Yes, indeed. And it will reduce (somewhat) to some - stress "some" - of those cities for the Fall. Just as the Mexico/Florida frequencies go down for the summer and increase for the winter.

As I understand it, you are saying that Frontier can only get "leisure fares" as against UAL (or Alaska, say). "Leisure" fares are lower than "business fares", right? But since Frontier is supposedly the LCC and the other two are not, I would assume (hope?) that Frontier's lowest fares are lower.

It would be a very odd world if the LCC had the premium over the legacy carriers - although this does happen.

It is also, I suggest - stress "suggest" - a mistake to assume that the lowest fares offered represent all the fares sold.

I said that I found your conclusions curious. I still do. And I find your last line the most curious of all: when did I say you don't know what you are talking about?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
F9Fan
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:20 pm

I was referring to Norfolk, NE (OFK) in my original post. I guess I confused that airport with Norfolk, VA (ORF). I wonder how that happened?  Innocent

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burnsie28
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:28 pm

While F9 can continue to focus on LAX, which with the right flights and destinations can be successful, really anyone including F9 should know not to enter NW territory, NW is the undisputed king and being able to destroy its competition, and no its not against the law, its just the airline that is VERY good at Chess. CHECKMATE F9.


While that may sound harsh, in reality its true, I respect F9 and many airlines, but sometimes the truth does hurt.

[Edited 2004-08-02 06:31:12]
 
ual747den
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:16 pm

SUPERDASH,
I am the one that told you that you don't know what you are talking about not MARINER. I still think that you don't know what your talking about. You think that when you go on the website and look at a fare that everyone get that same fare? As you should know from being the "know it all on business travel" most tickets for business travel is bought within 7 days of travel and I can assure you that those fares are a little more than the "sale" price. As MARINER pointed out the fares that you are looking up to get all of your insider information are not current by any means. F9 is doing very well and has done very well and will do very well. The fact that F9 lost only 6.6M is good if you ask me. They have new planes coming in on a regular basis, paid off the government loans that the other airlines have not and are dealing with the gas prices. I have to get one more thing in before I go, WHAT IS WRONG WITH LEISURE PASSENGERS? Every airline wants them and without them there would be no need for a LCC. The entire concept of LCC's rely on Leisure passengers!

UADC8,
Please tell me what about TED is a flop?
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
SuperDash
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:24 pm

UAL747DEN-

I know you are the one that said "SuperDash-You have no idea what you are talking about!"

But hey, you have to back that up with something. At least my boy Mariner comes to the game with an argument. You can't say someone has no clue and not back it up. At least in your second post you said something (even though you don't have a clue). I would also think by your call sign that you could care less about Frontier.

OK...time for school. Faremeasure.com uses the DOT data for its AVERAGE fares. This is what the airlines, by law, are required to file with the DOT. It takes everything they sold from junk, to not as much junk, to the we gouged someone fares and it comes out with an average. Now since most airline match the fares in any given market the fact that one airline is a so called LCC and another is not, really makes no difference. Airline A and B have the same fares. But as time goes, there is a thing called, yield or revenue management. This is when the airline tries to estimate its demand for a flight and the fares people are willing to pay (basic economics). They then allocate their inventory accordingly. Do you think that United's A319 leaving at the same time as Frontier's A319 to the same city has exactly the same inventory allocated to the fares offered in the market? Not likely. Simply because each airline has a different "mix" of local passengers, business passengers, flow passengers, etc. This "mix" ends up being that average that you see at the DOT and faremeasure. Travelocity or Expedia is a terrible indicator of how a market or flight is doing because you can't see all the dynamics going on to fill that said airplane or what is going on across the entire marketplace 24/7. Nor do you know if an airline can attract last minute business passengers or carries nothing but the national backpack convention. So, LCC's should have a lower average fare? Wrong answer. Southwest (this is where they are really brilliant) actually rarely shows up as the cheapest airline (on average) in a market. Why? Because they control their inventory probably better than anyone. USA Today did an article about this a week or so ago. So that brings us back to this posting...Frontier has a lower ticket price than the others because they do not capture the high end (business) demand as well as the other airlines. And truthfully, if you can't capture a business traveler because they are vested in United or Alaska or Air Tran's mileage program, or they think the name Ted is really cool, then, you would be better to sell the seat to another leisure pax as opposed to it going out as an empty seat. And Frontier does that well. They do fill their planes nicely, but they need to get more business and higher end passengers (more revenue). Or, do a better job at revenue management if they indeed are getting passengers. That's what it's all about. Frontier is a good airline, but they are flying in some thunderstorms right now. If they settle down and run their airline, I am sure they can do fine even with the disadvantages they have (Denver costs).

Now, that's at least bringing something to the game, even if you disagree.
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:53 am

SuperDash:

I must confess that - given my age - it is a very long time since someone has called me "my boy".

I hope I should take it as a compliment?

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Jetmek319
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RE: F9 Posts A Lost... Comments On LAX Service

Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:50 am

Age is a state of mind, Mariner!!
Never, ever moon a werewolf !!

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