FRAflyer
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Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:30 pm

Hello,

according to the German newspaper "Die Welt", Berlin Schoenefeld-Airport is negotiating with a us-based airline in order to establish non-stop service to America, starting in summer 2005. There's nothing firm yet, they're still investigating the demand and profitability.

No airline has been mentioned in the article. Any ideas?

Here's the link (German only):
http://www.welt.de/data/2004/07/29/311686.html
 
cedarjet
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:47 pm

I bet it's Continental. They're the only ones who are any good at small loads across the pond - Edinburgh, Lisbon et al.

Berlin is a graveyard for trans-Atlantic ambitions, they should tread carefully if they want it to work. I say anything bigger than a 757 (maybe 762 in summer) is pushing the boat out a little too far. I know it should be a moneyspinner, the capital of the biggest country in Europe (100m Germans! holy christ!) and one of the world's biggest economies, to the USA. Should be ch-ching, right? No, I don't know why not either. But it ain't, so CO (for it is they) should proceed with extreme caution.
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miaskies
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:49 pm

hmm...what about ATA?
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ei2ksea
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:56 pm

I suppose Berlin could be likened to Washington DC, where New York, Chicago and others completely shadow its international operations - since Frankfurt is such a huge LH hub as well as the financial capital of Germany and the Eurozone, it may just be that Berlin hasnt got enough of them premium fares to support any US incumbants long term ambitions and revenue hopes.

Incidentally could a CO 757 do EWR-Berlin nonstop with a full load? Just wondering....

Regards
Ph
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SafetyDude
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:56 pm

I would bet CO as well, as CO carries both business and leisure travelers, which is suitable for Berlin, where as ATA mostly has leisure travelers.

 Smile
-Will
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keesje
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:00 pm

Well IMO the only thing that could work to get any serious business traffic is a 2 times a day flight to NY (or Washington ..).

But as Cedarjet says, others tried before; LH, DL .. without succes.

if you want to go from Berlin to one the other big destinations you have to make 1 transfer anyway so why not in one of the 4 big European hubs. Those hubs are connected to the biggest 20 destinations directly ...

Timetable flexibility is what business travellers want & 1 flight a day is to restrictive then ...

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
airways
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:05 pm

What about a dedicated business class flight on a BBJ/ACJ?

Michael
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desertjets
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:15 pm

There are only a handful of European-North American city pairs that have been able support multiple daily flights, and Berlin isn't among that short list.

The Great Circle Mapper puts SXF-EWR at ~3400nm. Within the range of a 757-200, but with what kind of load could it reasonably take 95% of the time. Given the feed that Continental could offer from Newark it seems reasonable. I just would have to wonder if there is enough high-yield, time sensative demand on both ends. For what demand their is the hassle of connecting via AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA, AMS, CDG, or LHR probably isn't all that great.
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STT757
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:33 pm

When will the first of CO's new "Wingleted" 757s be operational, the winglets will provide a little more range and performance which would make Berlin 757 flights more reliable.

I say CO with a daily 757 from EWR..

Pan Am, Delta, LH, AA have all from time to time had nonstop service to Berlin from the US, TWA had a onestop flight which went via Brussels.
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BCAL
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:37 pm

I seem to recall that a 737 BBJ is operated on behalf of Lufthansa between a German town (sorry cannot remember which) and Chicago or New York, where there is insufficient demand for a full 767/777 service. Perhaps Lufthansa might be thinking of establishing a similar service from Berlin?
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fraT
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:54 pm

No way CO.
It won't be one of the Big 6 carriers. They would fly out of TXL to use the LH feeder flights. As per the article the new service will be ex SXF so I think if there will be a new service it will be offered by ATA or another charter airline.
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:11 pm

Remember, rumor has it that ATA is looking for a German city to operate out of...
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ei2ksea
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:20 pm

I can remember a highly abusive thread recently about the B757s relative comfort over the North Atlantic compared to widebodies, beit my subconscious or what i dont know, but i certainly wouldnt relish the thought of a B757 Berlin-Newark having done SNN-EWR a few times. Twould be great to get the CO B762
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N328KF
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:27 pm

FraT:

I don't think you can count out CO. Who says they want to stick with using Lufthansa as a partner?

Anyhow, you cannot compare Berlin to DC -- DC has a significant transatlantic presence, and did not suffer population drain as a result of the Cold War.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
ei2ksea
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:33 pm

N328KF, I merely compared Berlin to DC in the context that despite its status as the capital city of the country, this doesnt mean it has to be the premier international gateway to the country or that significant international traffic will be attracted, maybe Canberra would have be a better choice in my comparison.

Regards
Ph
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AlitaliaORD
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:38 pm

Would this new Berlin service be the newest since Tower Air went under?
BCAL- the city is Dusseldorf.

[Edited 2004-07-30 16:39:12]
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fraT
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:51 pm

N328KF,

CO and LH are no partners. But CO pays LH for every intra-German feeder segment a pro rate.
Face it. CO couldn't make money in DUS (the last months also with a 752) so they won't try Berlin. If LH couldn't make money with all their feeder service and other possibilities in the German market how should a U.S. carrier do so.

So IMO it must be a charter carrier.
 
ei2ksea
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:54 pm

What about LTU? Are they not starting Clogne (or maybe Dusseldorf) to Newark soon?
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Cory6188
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:58 pm

Well, the article says that it would be an American carrier, so it wouldn't be LTU. If it were to be one of the "Big Six", it would probably be CO with a wingletted 752 from EWR. However, it is doubtful that they would look into such a route, especially considering that they couldn't get DUS to work.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:17 am

I'm willing to bet my grandmother's false-teeth that it isnt CO...

...who's been run out of just about every German market they've ever entered (except of course Frankfurt).
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
fraT
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:24 am

If you count MUC and DUS as "about every German market"...

BTW. It was mentioned that it will take a while until they can use the winglets on the 752. So I don't know if CO would have them for next years summer season.
 
FutureFO
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:27 am

LH used to operate to TXL from IAD on the 343. 6x weekly. About every other day the a/c would go out full. I think that with Star being the largest alliance I can see a JFK-TXL or ORD-TXL flights on LH or UA. Just a thought. I don't think it would go to anyone else. If CO gets it the flights would be on a 762 not a 757. Just mainly for the range aspects. The 757 is bad enough on the CLE-LGW flights.


Sean from MCO
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newkai
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:39 am

LH's recent IAD-TXL 343 6x weekly existed until 9/11 I believe... It hadn't been around for long.

Damn, it's got to be possible to fill a plane a day on this route! I just don't get it!
 
Billy
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:41 am

The LH route to IAD lasted as long as the Government subsidy. They guaranteed front end traffic even if it was not used.
 
TokyoNarita
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:56 am

Just a hunch but it smells like Delta's new Atlanta-Berlin service.. Yeah sure
They don't seem to ran out of those B763ERs.

When I was in Germany I was surprised to see CO doesn't even do Houston-Frankfurt.

TokyoNarita.

[Edited 2004-07-30 18:07:11]
 
stirling
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:12 am

Berlin is a world-class city. Truly dynamic and stunningly beautiful.
However....
It still sits all by itself alone in an area that has not yet come up to economic level enjoyed by the rest of Germany. It is not a long trip outside of Berlin to see remnants of 45 years of communist neglect. But in all fairness, assimilating two countries, two cultures is a Herculean task, the job done has been admirable.
Meanwhile Frankfurt and Munich have developed into over the years, along with their surrounding areas, into magnets for hyper-business activity and multi-level tourism.
Even when PanAm flew to Berlin, it was for the purpose of connecting it to the rest of Germany, and then connecting to the US.
International traffic is something that a market must mature into....Berlin is still just a baby when it comes to developing into a truly intercontinental destination. Give it time.
As for the airline, UA makes the most sense...IAD, or a longshot would be ORD.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:20 am

If you count MUC and DUS as "about every German market"...

If you actually finished the sentence before half-ass responding to it...  Insane
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nudelhirsch
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:47 am

DL operates a daily ATL-STR flight with a 763 and I am honestly curious how they fill that as Frankfurt is so close to STR and DL flies several dailies to Frankfurt.
Also, not to forget Cargo to fill the plane, not only pax bring cash.

UA: difficult situation for UA thus unlikely, though strongly connected to LH which makes it likely again, maybe in a joint venture with LH...
AA: is not very strong in Germany, several lfights into Frankfurt, a second station could be possible for them.
NW: not mentioned before, why not...
DL: like I said, they have the STR-flight and thus seem to take risks, but are in a difficult financial situation. No hub in NYC or DC
CO: EWR-SXF could be possible, maybe a 767 with some cargo revenue...
US: unlikely
Charter is unlikely IMO, as there is already much charter traffic around Frankfurt and Munich, I doubt someone would try to create a new charter hub in SXF.
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TS-IOR
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:57 am


LH used to serve EWR daily out of TXL with a stop in HAM 4x and CGN 3x...

Condor would be interested in a Berlin transatlantic service...
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:57 am

No hub in NYC or DC


Um, then what would you call JFK, where they serve more international destinations than any other airline....

...PS., they call it a hub  Big grin
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ORDagent
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:27 am

In the early '90's AA tried ORD-TXL service. It lasted less than a year.
 
Pbb152
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:44 am

When I was in Germany I was surprised to see CO doesn't even do Houston-Frankfurt.

That should be rectified by this time next year.

Pete
 
rwylie77
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:44 am

Surely UA makes sense because of the Star Alliance partners such as Lufthanda that could then connect across Europe...?
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:45 am

I can only see a low cost carrier having a chance at making this work, which would narrow it to ATA. There is also talk of a CGN to US nonstop as well, so perhaps ATA is weighing SXF vs. CGN? SXF isn't exactly in the middle of Berlin, when I flew out two weeks ago, it took me nearly an hour on the S-Bahn from Zoo station to SXF. I would have preferred TXL, but oh well..

I don't think we'll see profitable USA-Berlin service until BBI is up and running at full steam, and that's several years off yet.

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nwa man
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:38 am

NW: not mentioned before, why not...


You know how you said AA isn't very strong in Germany? Well, NW's weaker. The DTW-Frankfurt flight is the only one they operate into the country. Furthermore, NW would have to connect a few other dots in Europe with Detroit and maintain them before they began even thinking about Berlin service... e.g. MUC, FCO (year-round), MXP, MAD, etc.

And despite other problems like NW's lack of aircraft and poor track record with new European markets (see FCO, MXP, and MAD above, as well as OSL), NW has found a pretty good relationship with KLM and the "double connect" philosophy. For example, a passenger trying to get from LIT to CGN would transfer in MEM and AMS. While adding time in the journey for the consumer, this relationship is profitable, and there would be no need for NW to start Berlin service as the market is already well served as a result of the alliance.


Regards,

N-Dub
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ckfred
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:40 am

I wouldn't rule out AA, but I would be surprised if AA does try flights to Berlin. They tried ORD to Berlin in the early 90s, back when they codeshared with LH.

I think the service only lasted 9 to 12 months. Despite the size of Berlin's population and its status as the future capital of the reunited Germany, AA and LH had more traffic to AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA, MUC, and DUS.

If AA does try Berlin again, it will be interesting to see the service is out of JFK, ORD, or DFW.
 
kosmonaute
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 5:04 am

Despite the size of Berlin's population and its status as the future capital of the reunited Germany

It is already the capital....The Bundestag returned there in 1999.
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copenhagenboy
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 5:07 am

Surely UA makes sense because of the Star Alliance partners such as Lufthanda that could then connect across Europe...?

They already do that in Frankfurt  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
fraT
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 5:42 am

All of the Big 6 carriers from the U.S. use LH feeder service into FRa or MUC to fill their planes. That means that they would need to fill a flight out of SXF with pax from the Berlin area. That is completely unrealistic. As said above there are not many companies located in the surrounding area of Berlin. Even though Berlin is the capital and the biggest city in Germany it is lightyears back in terms of aviation compared to FRa and MUC. And LH has no intentions to open a third hub.

ConcordeBoy: Sorry, my bad. I really didn't read it completely.... Embarrassment
 
TransIsland
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:28 am

As mentioned above. The majors would most likely fly to TXL rather than SXF. As it's SXF, it could well be that it is indeed ATA. I just hope that flight leaves from a U.S. destination that has non-stop service to Nassau AND can be timed to connect without spending the night. But even then, I'd prefer to arrive in TXL...
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:36 am

"DL: like I said, they have the STR-flight and thus seem to take risks, but are in a difficult financial situation. No hub in NYC or DC"

Funny, I was always under the impression that DL's two terminals, 30 gates, and 17 international destinations out of JFK constitued an int'l hub. But maybe that's just me.

If DL did start the service (which I doubt) it won't be from ATL--much like ATH, SVO, and NCE, it would be served from JFK.

PJ
 
EddieDude
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 7:18 am

I think that if DL can support one daily 763ER ATL-STR flight, surely another U.S. carrier can support non-stop service to Berlin too.

Speaking of Berlin, when is BBI (Berlin-Brandenburg International) going to open? I would guess that the German aviation authority is hoping that BBI will get trans-Atlantic service. Am I wrong?
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myk
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 8:04 am

Berlin - USA ???? hmmmm, when I think that LH don't even fly to London from Berlin, I really don't know how they will make some money linking Berlin and any other Us city.
 
TransIsland
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 8:36 am

LH may not fly from Berlin to London, but fortunately there's BA, Ryanair, EasyJet, Air Berlin, and DBA. And funnily enough, every time I need to fly that route, BA gives me the lowest rate. (plus most convenient times and airports)
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 8:47 am

Berlin has always been a difficult market for transatlantic service.....it seems that loads are OK but the yeilds are problematic.....no airline thus far has been able to make a flight between the US and Berlin a success.

BUT, CO has been very successful with using the 752 on niche transatlantic routes....the smaller amount of seats on the 757, combined with low operating costs, allows CO to keep yeilds under control. Add that CO's hub at EWR allows connections through out the US and the Americas (far more possibilities than were available on the IAD flight) and it could be a success. The 752 with winglets should not have a problem with the route; there are also rumors flying around about CO introducing a service to Prague......could a Newark-Berlin-Prague flight be in the works?

Dont count CO out of Germany, an IAH-F R A flight is coming, the only question is when (likely the Summer 2005 schedule with a 762 or 764), Munich was long ago before CO improved and became well-know on transatlantic routes and before the EWR hub was very developed.......CO pulled out of Munich due to poor yeilds (with the old DC10s) and the very expensive costs that came with Munich's new airport. DL), Germany">DUS was cut after 9/11, but the flight did not perform for a few months prior to that (when it was downgraded from a 762 to a 757) since CO lost a major contract that filled up many BF seats on a daily basis. DL), Germany">DUS is not far from F R A, and connected to F R A with high speed train service, thus there is little long-haul scheduled service out of DL), Germany">DUS.

DL opening an ATL-Berlin flight is a long-shot in my opinion. While DL serves many cities in Germany, ATL-Berlin would be very different from the "mercedes Express" flight between ATL and Stuggart.
 
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mats
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 8:55 am

This is a subject of great bafflement to me. Germany's great capital is so hard to reach!

I once flew TXL-HAM-EWR on Lufthansa and TXL-AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA-JFK on Pan Am. I have fond memories of those flights. Both were very full.

I was just thinking of how much I will miss Tegel.

So many carriers have tried Berlin and given up.

Air Canada: YYZ-SXF
American: ORD-TXL
Delta: JFK-TXL, ATL-HAM-TXL, JFK-TXL-WAW
Lufthansa: EWR-HAM-TXL and IAD-TXL
Pan Am: JFK-TXL and the European Hub at Tegel
TWA: JFK-CPH-TXL
United: LHR-TXL
 
JoFMO
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 10:41 am

The German newspaper DIE WELT reports that ATA is the airline which has an eye on TXL or SFX.
 
FRAflyer
Topic Author
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 11:09 am

JoFMO, have you read it today? Is there a link?

FRAflyer
 
JoFMO
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 11:12 am

No link, but go to welt.de and then on the left chose the Berlin regional side. Then you should find all Berlin related news.
 
FRAflyer
Topic Author
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RE: Berlin To Get Non-stop Service To The US

Sat Jul 31, 2004 11:23 am

Yes, it's ATA! The new article mentions that also Cologne is considered as a new German destination, and that there're two American cities possible to operate the flights from. I don't know much about ATA - which cities could it be?
Very interesting news!

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