Pe@rson
Topic Author
Posts: 16030
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:08 am

In your opinion, would there be sufficient demand for an daily service between Cambridge and Dublin, operated by an ATR-42 on a no-frills, low-cost basis?

There is, in my opinion, a variety of potential routes from Dublin, including Chester, Carlisle, Norwich, Robin Hood, Oxford and Humberside, all of which would be suitable for an ATR-42 service. I previously added Manston to that list, well before I heard about EUJet's intention to start the route!
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
tbanger
Posts: 253
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:21 am

Not sure whether it would be viable or not. One thing I do know is an ATR is not the type of aircraft for a LCC to operate. These size turboprops need to have quite a yield and the best way to get that is business travel.

If it could sustain a good business route, then they could fill the empty seats with low cost fares.  Big thumbs up



 
Pe@rson
Topic Author
Posts: 16030
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:27 am

The AT4 is one of the most efficient 'prop aircraft available. The AT7 is even more so, for it carriers quite a few more passengers at only a 15% higher cost, while also flying 5% faster than its smaller sister. The AT4 could probably be easily turned around in 20 minutes at such small airports (perhaps 25 minutes at DUB), meaning its daily utilisation would be even higher. Add to that 12 daily flights (each with a block time of between 50 minutes and 1 hour and 10 mins), and the AT4 can be in the sky for perhaps 12-13 hours per day. But then it could also operate night mail flights, thereby further increasing its daily utilisation (the brief daily maint. check would obviously be carried out). So the AT4 could be a good option on short sectors for a low-cost, no-frills airline. What is not required is expensive regional jets.

[Edited 2004-08-01 01:33:47]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Horus
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:35 am

Pe@rson, I doubt yields would be high enough on such routes to warrant a dedicated service. I suppose Norwich, Robin Hood and Humberside might be possible, but that may be in the form of a 'triangle route'. But we then stumble on another problem; businessmen (the real money-makers) don't 'like' triangle routes.

Horus

EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
Pe@rson
Topic Author
Posts: 16030
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:39 am

No, low-cost, no-frills airlines must operate non-stop, so Cambridge-Dublin-Cambridge. I believe Aer Arran is to begin a Dublin-Inverness service using the AT4.....................
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
tombezza
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:48 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:43 am

There's undoubtedly the demand for a Cambridge - Dublin route, but with Stansted less than half an hour away, I couldn't see anyone trying to compete with Ryanair's frequencies and prices.

If Stansted weren't so close, I'm sure that Cambridge could sustain a few routes - but it is, so Marshall's will likely sell the land for housing. Alconbury - Dublin, anyone?

tombezza
 
Horus
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:43 am

No, low-cost, no-frills airlines must operate non-stop

That is the general 'rule', but Southwest (the mother of all LCCs) have some routes that involve 2-3 stops before reaching final destination (nothing to do with lack of range of 737).

Horus

EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
Pe@rson
Topic Author
Posts: 16030
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:49 am

Indeed, and how useful those services are! Ha!

Chester is a very affluent area, so Hawaden could probably sustain flights to BHD, DUB, EDI, GLA and LGW. Don't underestimate the potential of these small airports when efficient aircraft like the AT4 could operate from them on a low-cost, no-frills basis.

Oxford/Kidlington could probably support flights to DUB, EDI, GLA, BHD.

Norwich could do with DUB, BHD, GLA.

Carlisle could do with DUB, BHD, LGW.

Robin Hood could do with DUB, BHD, EDI, GLA, LGW.

Despite the proximity of Robin Hood to HUY, there would probably be sufficient demand for a HUY-DUB service.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Horus
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:52 am

Not trying to be funny here, but surely if there was demand, then someone would have picked up these routes already.

Horus

EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
Pe@rson
Topic Author
Posts: 16030
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:55 am

LOL not at all. There's many thousands of potential routes throughout the world, hence why new airlines are continually being born and why current airlines expand. Your statement is like saying there's no more water available so no more boats can be made. Goodness, FR didn't just launch 3 new services from STN - well, surely there can't be demand on those routes for other airlines would have operated them already. LOL.  Wink/being sarcastic Sorry mate, just teasing.

[Edited 2004-08-01 01:57:16]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Horus
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:09 am

You got me there Pe@rson  Big thumbs up I guess time will tell

Horus

EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
Pe@rson
Topic Author
Posts: 16030
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:22 am

Aye! You must remember, my Egyptian friend, that businesses need to find niches to exploit and means by which to be unique, for differenciation is very important.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Horus
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:26 am

That's very true my friend (studied that in economics Big grin)

Horus

p.s. just one correction, I'm half English, half Egyptian
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
Pe@rson
Topic Author
Posts: 16030
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:29 am

"That's very true my friend (studied that in economics Big grin )"

Aha! I did a Business and Economics A Level, although a few years ago now.

"just one correction, I'm half English, half Egyptian."

 Sad Let the side down now!  Wink/being sarcastic
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Horus
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:34 am

Aha! I did a Business and Economics A Level, although a few years ago now.

Haha, me too....the good old days....


Let the side down now!

You lost me there  Confused  Laugh out loud


Horus

EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
Pe@rson
Topic Author
Posts: 16030
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:44 am

"You lost me there"

I mean you poor git for being half English.  Wink/being sarcastic
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Horus
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:54 am

I mean you poor git for being half English

Hahaha, well whats done, is done

Horus

EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
BAxMAN
Posts: 654
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 7:51 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:03 am

Pe@rson, just remember how many LCC's go bust....At the moment,for every new LCC, there is another dying on its legs.

I think you are more than a tad optimistic about how much more traffic DUB could sustain! And your estimatons on Carlisle are quite eye opening for someone who once lived there. Sure, Carlisle is remote and both GLA and MAN are a fair distance away. Even so, it's airport has been tried, tested and found wanting. There is simply not enough demand. You could pay people to fly from Carlisle and still have a half empty plane. Unfortunatley, not even the attraction of the Lakes would be enough to get people there.

The UK is quite a small country and, unlike the US, the sizes of our smaller cities plus their proximity to large ones makes further airport expansion in the regions unlikely. Certainly nothing like on the scale you mention.

Anyway, thanks for the chuckle!
I need to get laid
 
Pe@rson
Topic Author
Posts: 16030
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:05 am

I beg to differ, BAx, but thanks for your input - always welcome.

Take NQY, for example. I've flown the NQY-STN-NQY route in the winter a few times, and the FR 737s are always full or very nearly full - even during the winter. And then there's Air Southwest's service to LGW... So don't diss small places too much (and remember that Cornwall's tourist season is all about the summer).

[Edited 2004-08-01 03:08:58]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
gkirk
Posts: 23349
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:10 am

Carlisle is too close to NCL  Big grin
But the airports owner, Edward Haughey is trying to attract flights to Belfast, Dublin, Cork(!), Paris, London and Amsterdam.
One thing that lets Carlisle down is that people who live there cannot afford to fly  Laugh out loud
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Pe@rson
Topic Author
Posts: 16030
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:14 am

That's just like saying MME's too close to NCL, but it still has a number of flights.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
gkirk
Posts: 23349
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:35 am

MME is still a long way behind NCL though, despite having a larger catchment area  Big grin
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Pe@rson
Topic Author
Posts: 16030
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:36 am

LOL. 'How do you like ye bacon?' 'Bi-er-grove'.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
BAxMAN
Posts: 654
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 7:51 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Sun Aug 01, 2004 11:04 am

If anybody in their right mind thinks that Carlisle can sustain flights to those destinations, I shall begin scheduled flights to JFK from my back garden.
I need to get laid
 
Horus
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 2:58 am

Ouch!...waiting for a come back Pe@rson  Big thumbs up

I suppose in the future such routes might be possible but not anytime soon.

Horus

EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
ben
Posts: 1369
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 1999 9:27 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:42 am

If I remember correctly, there was/is a Cambridge based operator which did this route.

Suckling comes to mind for some reason....
 
Pe@rson
Topic Author
Posts: 16030
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:29 am

Suckling used to operate from Cambridge to AMS, more than once daily, if I recall correctly.

If a person can fly CONVENIENTLY and CHEAPLY from their local airport instead of travelling for a while, then they would go for that option, hence why the operation of such routes on a low-cost, no-frills basis would work.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
BAxMAN
Posts: 654
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 7:51 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:42 am

I completely agree Pearson.

But Chester, Oxford and Carlisle are just too small!

The ATR is not the miracle solution to reinvigorate ghost town airports.
I need to get laid
 
Pe@rson
Topic Author
Posts: 16030
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:48 am

I completely disagree. Chester is a very affluent area, so if its rich residents could fly conveniently from its local airport instead of travelling to MAN or LPL, then they would. Don't forget Chester is a very convenient place to reach North Wales and it is a big tourist-puller in its own right. I won't go into the other two as I'm too drunk.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
gkirk
Posts: 23349
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:00 am

Guess what...Suckling Airways = Scot Airways
BTW, A CAX-Lonon service would do ok, if marketed properly
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Pe@rson
Topic Author
Posts: 16030
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:06 am

"If marketed properly"

That's one of the key issues - most small low-cost airlines simply do not market themselves properly, probably due to a lack of finance. If, however, the vast majority of the public living in and close to each city new about the new services, then....................... But hey, we can but guess.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Blackbird1331
Posts: 1740
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:47 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:33 am

Please stop at BHX and pick up my friend, Jennifer. She loves Ireland.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
BAxMAN
Posts: 654
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 7:51 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:46 am

I don't know who by or when, but a CAX - LON service has been attempted as Corus/British Steel have a large presence in Cumbria and were particularly keen for another way to reach London apart from the train.

But I do agree to some extent that somehow a CAX-LON route should be viable. But definitely never ever CAX - DUB; AMS; PAR etc
I need to get laid
 
CKT789
Posts: 400
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2003 5:56 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:47 pm

OK, for Carlisle, an ATR42 would be too big an aircraft, ...to begin with. Something like a Jetstream or Do328 should be used to start the flights. Then, as word gets round, there could possibly be demand for moving up to the ATR42.

A LON flight would be viable but not to a minor airport like Biggin Hill, which Lakeside Aviation/Newair tried in the early 1990's. The problem then would be getting the slots to offer a viable business day service.

A DUB flight could work as there is a large Irish population in the town.

Also, an IOM service has been tried in the past with Air Furness with Islanders and I think it could work again, although, these flights would never get beyond Jetstream 31s.

There is also the tourist aspect to consider for the Lake District. However, the problem here would be getting word around about the flights. Often, travel agents over the cheapest alternative (any why not?), which would probably mean flying into NCL/GLA/MAN.

Also, check out the website for Carlisle Airport:

http://www.carlisleairport.co.uk

Jamie.
 
CXA330300
Posts: 1258
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:51 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:55 pm

The ATR is not the miracle solution to reinvigorate ghost town airports. (BAxMAN)

Surely not that, but as CKT789 said, Do328s (maybe even the Jet version) would be suitable.

As for underserved routes, how about Sheffield-Dublin? One of the UK's largest cities has no scheduled flights at all, they have to drag themselves to MAN or EMA.
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:55 pm

Re the point made about LCC's operating only nonstop flights, and the rebuttal that WN have many multistop flights.

Why is it that European LCC's by and large only operate nonstop point to point ? I would have thought that given the large number of secondary airports in Europe, it would be possible for eg. Easyjet to think of a few stopping routes that would enable it to offer higher frequencies, to the point where almost a shuttle service would be offered.

Re Carlisle and Cambridge et al, flights possibly, but why to DUB - DUB is not a hub to anywhere. You'd be far better off operating flights to serious hub airports like AMS or CDG, and set up interline agreements with the dominant carriers at those hubs to supply feed.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
gkirk
Posts: 23349
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:11 pm

CXA330300, Sheffield-Dublin flights have been tried recently, by BA CitiExpress using J41s. They didnt last long...
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
HUYfan
Posts: 1184
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 9:38 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:20 am

I am surprised Ryanair has'nt started flights from Dublin to Humberside or Norwich. HUY handles nearly 530,000 pax a year, way more than the likes of Bournemouth, which has an FR presence.

Alternatively, they would be ideal routes for Aer Arann's ATR-42 a/c.

Regards

Mike
 
StearmanNut
Posts: 344
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:54 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:22 am

I'm betting that a business plan research will reveal that business available from Cambridge would not support an one aircraft airline.

Besides, one can ride the train from Cambridge to Stansted as easily (though not as often) as taking the Express from Liverpool St. Station in London.

Also, the ATR4 would not be my choice for such an aircraft for this type of route (if it were viable, that is). A Dash 8 would be preferable and safe, as well as ruggedly dependable.
If wishes were horses, a Tail Dragger I would fly...
 
L1011aaron
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 2:57 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:41 pm

Is Robin Hood officially open yet? What aircraft will BY be basing there soon ?and have plans for thomsonfly to opean there second base there been confirmed?
 
BestWestern
Posts: 7206
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:54 pm

Pearson.... my old matey... INV, NWI, HUY, OXF, will work to DUB. Cambridge wont... too close to Stansted. Carlisle ummm - difficult one.

Chester could be a winner, but its very convenient to Dublin by Stena HSS from Holyhead - which is an excellent service.

The AT4 is a suitable aircraft also, but don't overlook the Dornier 328, which not so long ago what was Jet Magic looked on before finally (wrongly) deciding on the 135RJ.

You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
gkirk
Posts: 23349
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:41 pm

Large Irish population in Carlisle, could make a CAX-DUB work, but probbaly on something like a Do328.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Pe@rson
Topic Author
Posts: 16030
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:18 am

Hi folks,

Thanks for your opinions and suggestions.

I certainly like finding potential routes from hardly served/not served airports.

BW - where have you been lately? "INV, NWI, HUY, OXF, will work to DUB." Would a service from DUB to both Robin Hood AND HUY be possible? Would those airports compete for the same passengers? I guess they would.

"Chester could be a winner, but its very convenient to Dublin by Stena HSS from Holyhead - which is an excellent service."

"Large Irish population in Carlisle, could make a CAX-DUB work"

So both Cheser and CAX are possibilities.

Could NWI and HUY sustain a twice-daily link to DUB with either the AT4 or 328? I imagine that INV, OXF, CAX and Chester would initially need only a daily service, although plans would be to double that.

Any news on Aer Arann's proposed DUB-INV service?

[Edited 2004-08-04 19:30:35]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Pe@rson
Topic Author
Posts: 16030
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:35 am

The 328's max. speed (which is not its economical cruise speed) is 335 kts, which is faster than the ATR-42-500's max. cruise speed of 304 kts. The ATR-42-500 can carry between 46 and 50 passengers over a maximum of 1,000 nms. In contrast, the 328 can carry (in a three-abreast layout) 30-33 passengers over 900-1000 nms. What I don't know is the fuel burn and the purchase rates (naturally I'm not really intending to buy either, as it's just for fun).
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
ryanair
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 1999 1:41 am

RE: Cambridge To Dublin?

Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:54 am

I think there is a definate market for flights out of Cambridge. The city is near to Stansted, but has sustained various flights in the past. Suckling made it work for years, but made a mistake in taking the 328.

Taking the train to Stansted is not really an option because the service is disgraceful. A coach service runs but it's very overpriced and stops running before the last flights get to STN. Parking Mid Term isn't great either.

However I'm not sure that Dublin is an obvious market.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos