BD1959
Topic Author
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Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:19 pm

Hi All,

Old news, but I can't find an article on it so here goes...

http://theage.com.au/articles/2004/07/31/1091080486427.html?oneclick=true

Two Jetstar seatbelts were slashed on a flight from HTI to SYD recently. Jetstar should not be blamed for any security breaches, but it begs the question whether JQ's free seating policy (whereby passengers in individual seats cannot be traced once the flight has ended) is in itself "safe".

In instances such as this one - where it is imperative to identify how such a sharp implement was smuggled on board a plane, then that identification is not possible - indeed, it could be argued that someone aware of the fact that they could not be subsequently identified deliberately carried out this vandalism.

Should the free-seating policy be outlawed by Certification Agencies?

BD1959
 
melflyer
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 2:29 pm

Free seating also makes it easier for pax to remove items from the plane as souveniers. Very hard to track the person involved when you dont know who they are. I sure hope they have a lot of spare safety cards on each flight!!

Cheers
 
ual747den
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 2:54 pm

Passengers on most flights can move to whatever seat they want as soon as they are on the aircraft.

MELFLYER
I have NEVER herd of ANY airline trying to find out who took the safety card. Do you think they are going to waste there time going to your house and trying to get it back? Do you think an airline would risk the slander law suit by accusing someone of steeling a 10cent piece of paper? BE REAL!!!!
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
cloudy
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:20 pm

It is true that airlines don't seek out and prosecute safety card thieves. It isn't the point of this thread......but it should be pointed out that taking without asking is not acceptible behavior.

I believe not having a safety card where it is supposed to be is a violation of regulations and could result in a hefty fine to the airline. It would be very easy for a flight attendant or cleaner to miss the card's absence when under time pressure. That is why extras are kept available. It is also why most airlines would frown on the practice of stealing safety cards. However, many people do collect safety cards - most airlines will give you one out of their stocks of old or spare cards if you ask. At least, that is what the safety card collectors on these boards tend to say.

IN SHORT... ask, don't steal. You wouldn't do anything in a car that could result in the driver being pulled over and fined. That just isn't nice. Airlines are owed the same courtesy, especially in today's tough times.

[Edited 2004-08-02 09:24:19]
 
ArgInMIA
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:33 pm

BD1959, you dont need any sharp object to take off the seat belts.. they just have a quick release lock.. i took them out many times (NEVER STOLE ANY.. just took it out.. and got them back to where they belong)... also the free seating has really nothing to do with this.. all you need to do.. is take the seat belt from any other seat....
Alto.. Mucho mas alto.. hasta la cumbre
 
wgw2707
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:43 pm

Open seating, or "free seating" as you Aussies seem to call it, is not a safety risk at all. In the United States Southwest has been operating without assigned seating since 1971 with no difficulties, and many other airlines throughout the US have since adopted this principle. I believe the European LCCs like Ryanair have open seating as well, but I could be mistaken.

The only real disadvantage of open seating is the first-come, first-serve nature makes it uncertain whether or not you'll get a seat you want unless you're lucky enough to be in Group A... Then again, assigned seating is also first come first serve, but at the very least with it you do have some idea of what to expect before your flight.

-WGW2707
 
VH-KCT*
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:22 pm

In my opinion, if we're discussing an aircraft at 75% load, the number of people sitting next to empty seats is few. Nobody is going to be able to relocate themselves to another seat and do thier dirty deeds, then nick back without looking a little obvious.

Way back in my school days, one of my punk friends pinched a lifejacket (for god knows what reason) off a Qantas flight. To cut a long story short, even though he didn't steal his own, he was tracked down and punished.

In that way, I can see the benefits of allocated as opposed to free.
I am The Stig
 
melflyer
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:09 pm

MELFLYER
I have NEVER herd of ANY airline trying to find out who took the safety card. Do you think they are going to waste there time going to your house and trying to get it back? Do you think an airline would risk the slander law suit by accusing someone of steeling a 10cent piece of paper? BE REAL!!!!


I wasnt refering to only safety cards only, just using that as an vague example. There are many other things that can and do go mossing from aircraft. You just have to look at some of the stuff that is sold on ebay etc. The whole point is, free seating means there is a lot less accountability on the part of the passenger. As the airline has no record of who is sitting where, they may be more likely to try and get away with something they may not try if the airline was actually aware of who is in that seat.

Cheers
 
miami1
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:28 pm

ARGinMIA -
The seat belts were SLASHED. Not taken off using the quick release clips.

BD1959/MELflyer -
Lifejackets are frequently stolen on airlines that allocate seats. People don't care about the consequences. Have observe pax on aircraft with PTVs remove the screens and/or control units from the armrest.

Some people are just selfish when it comes to the safety of others. I once had two guys move around the aircraft steeling lifejackets. So many their carry on would not fit under the seat anymore. Some people are blantantly stupid. Others behave like pigs. Regardless of whether or not the cabin crew know their name.

Free seating had nothing to do with this vandilism. It happens regardless of the seat allocation policy. Perhaps now that it has been highlighted in the media it will give more morons on JQ flights the idea to damage the aircraft? That remains to be seen. I have asked people in the know and their has been no more vandilism / theft than there was before.
 
tsentsan
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:48 pm

Actually, VirginBlue has been tracking down people who have taken safety cards. Few of my friends who have taken were called by VirginBlue and questioned.
NO URLS in signature
 
SafetyDude
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:23 am

Free seating also makes it easier for pax to remove items from the plane as souveniers. Very hard to track the person involved when you dont know who they are. I sure hope they have a lot of spare safety cards on each flight!!

Actually, VirginBlue has been tracking down people who have taken safety cards. Few of my friends who have taken were called by VirginBlue and questioned.


I highly doubt that any airline in its right mind would track down safety cards or any safety equipment. What would happen if a passenger were to leave the safety card in his/her seat, but take one from another seat?

Most of the lifejackets that appear on eBay are demos, and those that are not are almost always the ones that have to be replaced and they were just plucked from the trash, not the seat.

 Smile
-Will

"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
eclipseflight7
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:02 am

I know that Braathens had a problem a while back about missing seatbelts as they were quite fashionable around Scandanavia.
Holy sh*ts and burritos.
 
SafetyDude
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:25 am

I know that Braathens had a problem a while back about missing seatbelts as they were quite fashionable around Scandanavia.
I remember reading about that in "Airliners", I believe. Are they still fashionable?  Big grin

-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
BD1959
Topic Author
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:26 am

OK - this seems to have gone a little off thread (nothing unusual there!).

ARGinMIA: yes, I appreciate that you don't need to cut the seatbelt in order to remove the buckle. However, in this instance the spokesman is quite clearly quoted as saying that the belts were slashed.

People: As the article states: there has quite clearly been a breach of security here (nothing to do with JQ per se). Whatever was used to slash the seatbelt had no right being in the cabin of an aircraft during a flight.

If JQ did not have free-seating, the moron who smuggled this item on board would not have presumably slashed the seatbelts since s/he would have been very easy to track down. Taking something that sharp onto an aircraft is clearly not in the same league as nicking a couple of safety cards - and I guess YES, the authorities would like to have a little word with that individual.

The question remains whether this act was done in the sure-fire knowledge that they could not be caught because of JQs free seating policy.

BD1959
 
miami1
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:15 am

BD1959 -
There has been no increase in theft or vandilism since the introduction of free seating. Now that the media has highlighted this then maybe it will increse. I can assure you that free seating has not caused higher than normal theft on JQ flights.

Pax on LH flights steel PTVs and the control units from armrests! The highly selfish people who do such things are just as stupid.
 
BD1959
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:37 am

There has been no increase in theft or vandilism since the introduction of free seating

Miami1, I'm not suggesting that there has been. What I am asking is:

1) Whether this type of vandalism would have occurred with allocated seating
2) Whether free seating possibly encouraged this particular type of vandalism.

Without being able to speak to the morons would perpetrated this act, we'll probably never know the answer to 2). With allocated seating, at least we'd be able to ask the moron.

BD1959
 
miami1
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:52 pm

BD1959 -
The 'type' of theft or destruction is irrelevent. Damaging or stealing property is still just as bad - no matter what it is. I see the damage to seat belts no different than ripping off a tray table or arm rest. (Other than the seat belt coming under CASA regs as a piece of safety equipment.)

With allocated seating you will find such cretins would have moved to another seat to commit the crime (barring the REALLY stupid ones who damage their own seat!). Therefore you couldn't trace them anyway. Seriously you cannot say that people with allocated seats do not damage aircraft.

The fact there is free seating has not induced any more acts of theft or vandelism. Therefore we can conclude that it does not make a difference. If people wanted a seatbelt or IFE controller they either had balls enough to do it to their own seat or moved to a spare.

Having now been plastered all over the media. I would say such idiots have now been invited to come forward and prove me wrong!

I am not sure if you work in the industry, particularily in airports or on aircraft. But the level of stupidity and selfishness in a small minority of the traveling public would ASTOUND you. That's a promise!
 
BD1959
Topic Author
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:19 am

Miami1,

In this instance the type of vandalism IS of a major concern since it was the result of a very sharp implement being smuggled onto the aircraft. To date, taking ones hands onto an aircraft is not illegal (though using those hands to rip off an armrest would be!).

Granted, even with allocated seating it is possible to vandalise an aircraft, however not everyone moves around and swaps seats. Even if those seats which had their belts slashed were "unoccupied" there would be fellow passengers around (who had not swapped seats) who would be able to assist in identifying anyone who had moved into those seats. It then becomes easier to identify the person responsible.

I don't know about you - but as a regular traveller on Australian Domestic services, I'd really like to know how they managed to get something so sharp onto a domestic flight. Unfortunately, it would appear that we will never know.

BD
 
SK973
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:16 am

Miami1,

Didn't know LH had PTVs...  Big grin

 
7E7
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:54 am

This has happened.

A while back, a collegue was greeting his mrs on her flight back from SYD into MEL, going through security up to the flight gate.
He had a swissknife in his bumbag (as he's a car de-tailer, he took 2 hours off his work to meet her at the airport).

He did not realise that he had the knife until he got to his car and was digging his hand into the bag to get the keys.

He assured me that he didn't even take the bag off, nor did the metal detector go off when he went through it.
I pressed on him to call channel 7's Today Tonight to tell them what happened, but he thought they won't believe him.
 
BD1959
Topic Author
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:43 am

7E7,

I pressed on him to call channel 7's Today Tonight to tell them what happened, but he thought they won't believe him.

Oh, they'd probably believe him but (being Today Tonight) Naomi wouldn't be interested as there's no weight-loss, hyperactive kid or book to sell (featuring hyper-active, fat kids) in this "news item".  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

BD
 
7E7
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:29 pm

lol, BD1959 you're probably right  Laugh out loud
 
cragley
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:45 pm



I think the point trying to be made is that in the past when vandalism has taken place, its been easier to track the culprit.
Now it is more difficult to do, and most probably it wasn;t thought of by jetstar.

The fact that a belt was slashed indicates someone got on with a sharp object and it wasn;t detected.

That means that there was a person/persons on board the flight who not only vandalised the plane, but was also carrying a sharp object/weapon. And Jetstar have no idea who this person is.

And yeah, safety cards cost the airline money. Why give them away or let them be taken?

P.S If anyone wants any from Ansett, I have a few  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
DoorsToManual
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:11 pm

The airline I work for also has a free seating policy. We carry a stock of spare safety cards and lifejackets aboard all flights; to be honest, theft of such property is fairly uncommon, so I don't think the airline will be changing the policy anytime soon. As for slashing of seatbelts with a sharp object - whilst not meaning to belittle this, people bring 1L glass bottles aboard the aircraft every day; in my mind, these objects are just as dangerous!
 
lauda777
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:45 pm

DoorsToManual is right, a glass bottle of alcohol which is permitted on board and sometimes sold on board duty free, can easily knock someone out or be smashed open and used as a sharp weapon.
Whoever slashed the seatbelts might have had a piece of glass with them, glass wouldn't set off the metal detector would it? Yet it can be just as dangerous as a knife.
We remind passengers all flights are non smoking, if you are caught smoking you will be asked to sit outside on the wing
 
7E7
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:47 pm

Speaking of dangerous tools onboard, a piano or guitar string are extremely verstaile silent weapons. All what's needed is strong arms/hands.
Anything that is glass onboard can be transformed into a sharp object. champagne glasses are one good example.

But how about fire extinguishers? Don't they have them onboard?

As for vandalism and its relation to free seating policy can hardly be remotely associated; Maybe another way is to educate people, perhaps an addition to the safety card 'Please do not slash seatbelts...FINE $10,000'  Nuts

 
ryanair
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RE: Jetstar Vandalism - Free Seating To Blame?

Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:02 am

To be honest it is almost impossible to prove vandalism on a plane.

Just because somebody was assigned a certain seat, doesn't mean they are responsible for any damage. Proving this is very difficult as the evidence is highly circumstancial.

In the unlikely event an airline tries to track people down, when they call up it's a matter of 'bluffing' to get their goods returned.