airbazar
Posts: 7136
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:36 am

Interesting news article.
http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=5875220

I wonder what implication this would have on UAL. I doubt the government actually has the balls to do this though.
 
CcrlR
Posts: 2189
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2001 9:24 am

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:57 am

I heard on ABC news that UA had cut flights, but Independence Air took those slots. They need to force them and they need to tell Daley that he is not going get his expansion plan going until this is solved. I believe that this needs to happen in order to fix our system.
"He was right, it is a screaming metal deathtrap!"-Cosmo (from the Fairly Oddparents)
 
voodoo
Posts: 1959
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 12:14 am

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:04 am

Independence did not `take' slots. There is a tendency to blame Independence Air via bad historical understanding. AFAIK, Independence has the legacy certificate for service (as ACA). Additionally, there are no `slots' at ORD. It is not a slot controlled airport. If UAL could not renegotiate an acceptable contract with ACA (to preclude ACA going Independent) and had to replace ACA with other UAex flights, that is UALs responsibility, not ACAs.
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
ORD2PHL
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 9:15 am

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:23 am

The situation at ORD is absolute garbage. UA and AA were forced to de-peak and reduce their schedule while other carriers, i.e. BR were allowed to increase flights, etc. If AA/UA are forced to again reduce; it just proves how useless the FAA is. ORD is badly in need of expansion, knock-on delays during the summer cripple the whole system; and a third airport in Chicago is NOT the answer.

ORD2PHL
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2570
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:15 pm

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:34 am

Yeah, BR - EVA Air increased a whole two or three flights a week. They probably come at night too.
 
highliner2
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2000 1:26 pm

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:46 am

It's what needs to be done, did'nt they do that at La Guardia and it helped bring down delays? And I must also agree about the poor handling of the flight reductions. AA and UA both reduced scheduled flights, and then other carriers just added flights of their own. So basically all the FAA did was nothing, except weaken AA and UA for no good reason. It was a poor showing, they should've taken the cuts by AA and UA but also not allowed other carriers to add flights during those times, negating the cuts. The time has come for slot restrictions, it's the only way until the runway reconfig. is done.
Go Cubs!
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11665
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:46 am

If anyone is at fault for the mess at ORD, it's the FAA. In a free market, it's ridiculous to suggest that DH has no right start some new flights at ORD (regardless of whose fault their problems as UAex were), and the added flights by LO and BR have little or no effect.

The FAA, encouraged by Peter Fitzgerald, Jesse Jackson Jr, and a couple of others, has dragged its feet on ORD expansion for too long. There's no excuse for this as the summer of 2000 should have indicated that there was a problem. The economic slowdown of 2001 followed by September 11 is the only reason we had 3 tolerable summers between now and then. Now that the FAA realizes that there is a problem at ORD, its own ineffiency means that the city won't get the go-ahead to start construction on the first new runway until next year at the earliest, and completion would then be most likely some time in 2007. It seems to me that when the FAA caused this problem, they have no right to force carriers to do anything. My hope, though, is that carriers will realize that delays aren't in anyone's best interest and voluntarily reconfigure their schedules.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
airbazar
Posts: 7136
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:49 am

I could be wrong but weren't UA and AA forced to "de-peak" their flights because they were the biggest offenders? I mean, realistically, how can you schedulle 10 flights within 10 minutes and expect not to have congestion and delays?
 
Okie
Posts: 3610
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:34 am

UA, AA, IndyAir, or anyone else is going to "de-peak" on a voluntary basis, especially after the previous reduction and basically all that happened was UA & AA lost position and other airlines gained.

Slotting is absolutely imminent everyone is holding position to get their percentage of slots. You can call it predatory, anti-competitive, or just plain good business depending on your perspective.

What is really amazing is that passengers have not had an uprising, anyone remember the passenger bill of rights when things were booming in the mid 90's. Of course the airlines blamed ATC, ATC the airlines, many changes in ATC were suppose to have taken place by now but little has materialized.

I will stick with my timeline for ORD

1. Slotting will happen SOON
2. The ORD expansion will then happen with the airport authority/City of Chicago selling or leasing the new available slots and will be the financial benefactor.
3. For good measure throw in some Chicago politics

Okie






 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Thu Aug 05, 2004 10:07 pm

Im in HUGE favor to see ORD to start becoming a slot restricted airport. It is needed in order to tone down traffic. I believe that some traffic CAN also be going into and out of MDW as well. Some airlines just have to try. Expanding ORD, in my opinion, is not a very good idea right now. Cut flights first, see where that takes ORD and work from that.

MDW can use some traffic, as I said earlier.....
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
airportplan
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:36 am

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:12 pm

"MDW can use some traffic, as I said earlier....."

You must not be familiar with MDW. Midway is less than 1 square mile in size (The entire airport is 630 acres), handles more than 18 Millions passenger per year and host 800 operations per day. Of those nearly 600 are commercial operations. In terms of gate usage MDW is near capacity even though the terminal is brand new. WN and TZ control most of the gates at MDW and turn these gates 12-14 times pre day. This rate of gate utilization is unheard of at most airports. The non WN/TZ gates have a similar number of turns but host 3-4 other carriers per gate. MDW is NOT an option to reduce traffic at ORD.
 
jsnww81
Posts: 2307
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:29 am

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:33 pm

Airportplan is absolutely correct - MDW's brand-new terminal is already operating fairly close to its capacity. If anything, MDW will need relief as much as O'Hare in a few years... I think we'll see proposals for some kind of remote gate expansion before this decade is out.

As for ORD, bring on the slots! Regulation is never ideal, but when expansion hits an impasse (as it has at ORD) it's sometimes the only option. Hopefully implementing slots will grease the skids for the O'Hare expansion plan. Moving all the runways around will take at least a decade - it's important they get started soon.
 
Skyway1
Posts: 977
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 12:15 pm

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:01 am

As stated by the two previous posters, MDW is packed! It's not uncommon for one of our MDW flights to be put in the penalty box because of ARRIVAL DEMAND.....too many airplanes trying to land in a certain amount of ime. It seems this hits our 5:55PM flight most often.

Chris
KNUK, KNUK, KNUK woowoowoo
 
738_Driver
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2001 5:17 pm

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:18 am

Anyone have any ideas on how the slots should be allocated to carriers serving ORD? After all, AA and UA had a large amount of slot holdings worth a lot of money when slots were phased out in 2002. Should cariers who previously held slots at ORD have their old slot holdings reallocated to them?

 
AlitaliaORD
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 12:38 am

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:23 am

Is Hartsfield-Jackson-Delta-AirTran Intl or whatever they are calling themselves these days slot restricted?
Joy To The World, All The Boys and Girls, Joy to the Fishes in the Deep Blue Sea, Joy to You and Me
 
ckfred
Posts: 4763
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:42 am

Part of the problem at ORD is that there are too many RJs. If a legacy carrier reduces mainline service, it is not done on a one-to-one basis. Often a route that loses mainline service has more flights with RJs.

Add to the fact that RJs require more spacing in the arrival patterns, and it's no wonder that ORD is so horribly congested.

AA certainly has to share some of the blame. They have been replacing F100s with RJs, while there are 28 MD-80s and 8 767-200s sitting in the desert. Pull those mainline aircraft out of the desert and get them flying out of ORD.

Yes, cutting a route from 6 RJs to 3 MD-80s is not the best solution, but it beats waiting at the gate 45 minutes for a plane, then sitting in line another 45 minutes for takeoff.
 
bistro1200
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2003 7:13 am

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:27 am

Funny, no one seems to blame the FAA for not keeping up with demand. This is the true cause, not "overscheduling". Airlines react to passenger demand, and thus so should airports. Read Mike Boyd's column this week, it hits the nail on the head. Also there are times when ORD can sustain a 100 AAR, yet storms in Cleveland's airspace prevent that from happening. Why is ZOB considered the "bottleneck" to the Northeast corridor.

This is true: There is no other industry whose ability to grow rests so much on the actions of government.
Measure to the millimeter, mark with a crayon, cut with an axe.
 
spacecadet
Posts: 2833
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:40 am

Part of the problem at ORD is that there are too many RJs.

This is true almost everywhere that there's a capacity problem. I know it's true at LGA, a slot-limited airport.

An RJ takes as much airspace as a 747 in most situations. So the downsizing of airplanes recently has actually made the congestion problem worse, not better.

This is true: There is no other industry whose ability to grow rests so much on the actions of government.

Please! Take a look at the cable industry, or the power industry, or any other transportation industry. Who runs the subways in your city, or the bus lines? What do they need to do when they want to raise fares?

There's a reason why air travel is as regulated as it is (and it's not nearly as regulated as it used to be, which is one of the problems in all honesty). It's because it needs to be. I can't even imagine a day without the FAA, where it's a complete free-for-all with no regard for safety or passenger comfort or convenience. Airlines just want money, that's all they care about, and if they're at capacity already there's very little incentive for them to do anything but add seats at the expense of everything else.

Bring on the slots at ORD, is what I say...
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
COSPN
Posts: 1540
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:30 am

CO is doing its part flying to both MDW and ORD from EWR and CLE..so they should just bump airlines that Ignore MDW
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:30 am

They're going to have to do something at several airports in the US, to include relocating a few. Unless they relo, slot allocation is the only option until LAAS is implemented.
 
738_Driver
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2001 5:17 pm

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:40 am

Just a thought... As others have pointed out, MDW is packed too. Is it possible MDW is contributing to ORD's problems because it somewhat shares the same airspace?
 
highliner2
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2000 1:26 pm

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:51 am

And Midway is packed because Meigs is closed, the irony is incredible isn't it? I think MDW may be a minor factor, procedures are set up to allow an efficient flow into and out of O'Hare and MDW at the same time however. As has been stated before, it's the runways that need to be fixed.
Go Cubs!
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11665
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:55 pm

MDW and ORD have had the same runway configuration for quite some time. As a result, controllers are quite adept at handling the two. This leads to a few strange routings (MDW-MSP flights departing on 31 C and turning northeast to climb over the lake, for example), but works pretty well on the whole.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: U.S. May Cap Flights At Chicago's O'Hare

Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:19 pm

Funny, no one seems to blame the FAA for not keeping up with demand.

The last time I checked, the F.A.A. is the police of aviation. But they do not run 'traffic signals' at any airport. IMO, overcrowding at ORD/MDW isnt in F.A.A.'s job description. That belongs to the airport's authority.

The F.A.A. cant say to an airline that they can only fly this many flights to ORD/MDW. Thats not their position.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.

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