EZYAirbus
Topic Author
Posts: 2323
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:57 am

Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:46 pm

While I was at work the other day, an Air Canada 744 passed my workshop, I noticed the star alliance markings had been removed, are they going to pull out of the Star Alliance?

Glenn
http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:49 pm

They might pull out of everything as far as I know. How is their current financial situation, and how much time have they got left? I can Imagine LH and UA kicking AC out if everything goes wrong..
 
md11dude
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 8:03 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:59 pm

Their not pulling out. Remember the 744s are being withdrawn from the fleet...perhaps that is the first to go.
CP979
 
PU707
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2001 10:35 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:20 am

The 744's will be withdrawn from regular flights by Oct. 29, 2004. Last service
on that day will be FRA-YYZ. By Sept. 5 they will stop 1 of 2 daily 744 flights between YYZ-FRA as well as YYZ-LHR. The YUL-FRA 744 has just been replaced on July 30 by a 763. All stickers will go... I don't know where the aircraft are going to, though.

AC is in financial trouble but although nothing is sure in this industry, it is not in "bad trouble." I haven't heard anything about leaving Star Alliance. UA is in trouble too so I'm not sure they would want to kick AC out.

Cheers

"Siempre al servicio de la libertad"
 
cayman
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 2:28 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:23 am

KI911--

Actually the worst has passed for AC--they got comprehensive agreements with their unions (against all odds)--and should emerge from bankruptcy protection within 60 days or so--

They still have work to do to continue to cut costs, but I would submit that AC has some considerable momentum right now to emege in pretty good shape---they are doing splendidly building up latin American routes---

UA and LH are not going to kick AC out by any means---rest assured that LH enjoys the connector traffic AC provides at FRA, and UA and AC have huge relationship transborder---AC is a founding member of Star and will remain so--
 
yul332LX
Posts: 798
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:15 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:47 am

The YUL-FRA 744 has just been replaced on July 30 by a 763.

Not exactly. The 2x daily YUL-FRA flights have been operated by 763s since the beginning of the summer and will switch to a daily 330 next autumn.
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
sebring
Posts: 1323
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:17 am

My understanding is that staying in Star was a requirement that the creditors and the new investor have to accept. For the investor, it's written right into the equity agreement. So no, AC is firmly in Star.
 
PU707
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2001 10:35 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:20 am

Hello YUL332LX

About AC equipment to FRA... Into YUL they operate 2 daily summer flights. The PM one on 763; the AM one has been alternating between 744 and 763 for several months, depending on the day of the week. Since July 30 they no longer use 744. This is why you may not have seen the Jumbo on some summer days.

Must say I did enjoy your LX332 to ZRH this winter!
"Siempre al servicio de la libertad"
 
NWA757
Posts: 168
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 8:53 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:55 am

I definately miss Air Canada's Boeing 744's! A good aircraft for a good Airline. Are all of the combis that AC owned now gone? I imagine so. Will Air Canada now use any A340's or A330's into FRA along with the 763?
Fly High!
 
yul332LX
Posts: 798
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:15 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:08 am

YUL-FRA and YYZ-FRA will be operated by 333 next winter.
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
Tubbyboeing
Posts: 135
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 9:06 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:40 am

So, is AC going to operate an all Airbus fleet by the end of the year? Too bad to see those nice B744s go.
 
yul332LX
Posts: 798
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:15 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:43 am

Tubbyboeing, did you forget about the 30+ 767 AC has?  Big grin
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
Tubbyboeing
Posts: 135
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 9:06 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:53 am

Tubbyboeing, did you forget about the 30+ 767 AC has?

Does AC have so many 767s? I honestly didn't know that..LOL..thanks for that YUL332LX.
 
KCmike
Posts: 531
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 10:13 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:29 am

Why are they getting rid of their 744's? Whats wrong with them?
Cleared for the option...
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:48 am

Because they don't need them.

AC has the A330, A340 and 767 for its longhaul ops. They fit just about right. The 747 is one type too many, and why keep what you don't need or can't fill?

The AC ops at LHR are now A330 territory. That obviously suits them much better or it would not have happened. Just too much plane for Air Canada in their new scheme of things.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
yyzacguy
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 2:38 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:37 am

Ya the 747's are gone they will be missed and nothing beats standin on the lead in line and bringing 1 in. Or standing in the cold -40 c and sending him away. They where nice to work but I guess its not worth it good bye 747. :''(
There is also a rumour that the cost to fly A 747 is high. I was told that a B747-400(combi) the 1s ac have for example you can fly YYZ LGA and for the same price on a A340 you can take it to YYZ LHR is that true fuel wise is that true or a rumour?
ACYYZT1 thats me
 
sebring
Posts: 1323
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:41 am

Those nice 744s as some of you call them are combis, and three in number and now 12 years in service. They are more trouble than they are worth. They were ordered with a greatly strengthened deck - more so than normal freighters and combis. There are urban legends about that deck, something about a deal with the Canadian government to have the capability to move heavy military equipment. But whatever the reason, it was a bad idea because the combis can't make Vancouver-Hong Kong westbound without taking a substantial payload penalty. The plane is just too heavy. And Canada doesn't have combi or freighter rights into Japan. So these planes were rotated to the North Atlantic where they do a nice steady cargo business, particularly out of Frankfurt. But they are not a good economic proposition, and AC, like a lot of former combi operators, found combi reliability to be a problem. There are more ways for a combi to crap out than for a passenger aircraft. Often, it's the cargo side of the operation that is responsible for late and cancelled departures. So AC is retiring the three aircraft. Their place in the fleet has been taken over by the two A340-500s just delivered and now flying Toronto-Hong Kong nonstop. I don't know if these combis will ever fly again, even as freighters because that heavy deck would have to be replaced with a normal cargo deck making the cost of conversion more than for a conventional 744 to 744F switch.

 
ramprat
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2000 11:38 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:05 pm

I have been told that an 744 uses 150,000 lbs more fuel on YYC-LHR, than an A-340 on YYC-FRA. That amounts to quite a savings, so, even though it doesn't have the take off angle or power of a 744, it saves quite a bit of money for the operator, in this case AC.
 
CanadianNorth
Posts: 3143
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:41 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:26 pm

They got rid of the 4 (was it 4 i think so??) 744s from Canadi>n. Now their 744Combis are going.

I think their fleet of
CRJ200
A319
A320
A321
B767-200
B767-200ER
B767-300ER
A330-300
A340-300
A340-500
does the job, and the 3 plane fleet of 744Cs in an operation of over 150 aircraft just wasn't worth the trouble as far as costs go.


CanadianNorth
Way to go, nice and slow, never late, 748!
 
ETStar
Posts: 1850
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:25 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:06 pm

Hopefully we will see the 767s replaced by more A330s in the future and that will give an added advantage in terms of fleet commonality.
 
SNATH
Posts: 3049
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:23 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:33 pm

Hopefully we will see the 767s replaced by more A330s in the future and that will give an added advantage in terms of fleet commonality.

I think I read in FI a few weeks ago that AC was actually planning to retain
some of their B767s for quite a long time; into the next decade maybe.
Does anyone here remember the actual timeline?

I was quite surprised, I have to say, as I expected them to be wanting
to replace them with 'buses sooner.... Of course, I don't mind, as the
B767 is my personal favourite long-haul plane.  Big grin

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
sebring
Posts: 1323
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:49 pm

The fleet plan included in the bankruptcy restructuring that will be voted on by creditors in 11 days' time calls for a reduction in 762s by 2007. AC has several stored 762s. The 763, 330 and 340 numbers remain pretty well as is. AC is actively considering the 7E7 and I am told that Airbus has already been in touch re: the proposed A350. I expect AC to lean towards the 7E7 - I had a chance to have a coffee with an AC exec last week who said the airline (meaning CEO Robert Milton) likes the idea of keeping a significant Boeing tranche in the fleet, and that the ideal part of the fleet to go Boeing is that part that is already Boeing, ergo the 7E7 as replacement for 767s. Of course, everyone also expects Airbus to counter with hard-to-refuse pricing on the 350, assuming it goes forward.

AC has always had a pretty independent streak on aircraft purchases which makes its decisions a bellwether to other airlines. When it sold off its 727-200s, there was great speculation they would buy Boeing replacements, but Boeing didn't have an appropriate aircraft (this was prior to the 737NG family; the 733/734/735 didn't have the right range/mission characteristics to replace the longer-haul missions of the 727-200s). So AC became the first North American airline to order the A320. It was also the first North American operator of the A319 and the A340 (but not the A330, though it flies the 333 HGW now)

Last year, many people thought AC's choice of a 100-seater would be the A318 on price and commonality, but the airline looked long and hard at the EMB-190 and decided it was just a better airplane. So my money is on AC giving the 767 replacement order to Boeing. I would expect something to be announced within a year.



 
CPDC10-30
Posts: 4681
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 4:30 pm

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:50 pm

I think I read in FI a few weeks ago that AC was actually planning to retain
some of their B767s for quite a long time; into the next decade maybe.
Does anyone here remember the actual timeline?


There isn't any timeline because the 767-300ER models are the backbone of Air Canada's international operations. Some of the 763s are a bit older (ex-CP GE powered models) but others are newly acquired for AC and only a few years old. I don't think anyone in AC is really contemplating their replacement in the next five years or so.

The 762s (non-ER) have started to thin out and are largely being replaced by A321s on the major domestic routes to/from YUL and YYZ. I don't know what the exact timeframe is for their retirement or reassignment (rumours for cargo conversions abounded a while ago). BTW I had a chance to fly one of the A321s a couple of weeks ago YYZ-YYC which was very nice...surprised by the power on a very short takeoff roll considering the full load. Must not have been set to flex thrust  Smile/happy/getting dizzy



 
awschucksflyer
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:02 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:25 pm

Quick question...

What is the A350?...I haven't heard anything about this (new) aircraft type.



AWSCHUCKS!!
 
bmacleod
Posts: 2600
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:10 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Sat Aug 07, 2004 2:31 am

Hopefully we will see the 767s replaced by more A330s in the future and that will give an added advantage in terms of fleet commonality.

330s were picked to replace older 747s, not 767s especially the 767-200ERs. The 310 is or was Airbus's only answer to the 767; assuming Airbus doesn't build a shortened 330. AC would be wise to have a few Boeings in their fleet and I would rather see them be replaced by 7E7s in 5 years or so....
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
SNATH
Posts: 3049
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:23 am

RE: Air Canada Pulling Out Of Star Alliance?

Sat Aug 07, 2004 5:27 am

CPDC10-30,

Thanks for the clarification!

Sebring,

I was not aware that AC was looking at the 7E7! It would be awesome if they get it!
Thanks.

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.

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