scotron11
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Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:09 pm

Disturbing report in FT that ENAC (the Italian Civil Aviation Authority) had ordered BA & LH to stop offering lower fares than Alitalia on competing long-haul services.

This comes as the Italian Government seeks to prevent AZ from collapsing into bankruptcy by agreeing to provide an emergency state-guaranteed $493M loan to the airline.

BA has protested to the European Commission and that similar problems could arise over the setting of prices on some indirect long-haul services connecting through BA's LHR hub from Poland, Germany, Latvia, Hungary & the Czech Republic.

Is this legal? Can governments demand what an independent, privately owned carrier charge for its fares? Seems strange to me!

 
flyboy36y
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:17 pm

Is this legal? Can governments demand what an independent, privately owned carrier charge for its fares? Seems strange to me!

We did it in this country untill deregulation in the 70s

 
scotron11
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:30 pm

Agreed....and the one of the great acts of government abolishing the CAB! But I thought that here in the "Europen Union" all trade was unregulated. Guess I'm thinking wrong.
 
bjg231
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:37 pm

It's probably only a matter of time before the EU reaches a settlement or the WTO takes some sort of action against Italy. However, I honestly doubt that the dispute will get as far as the WTO, most likely BA and LH will reach a reasonable compromise with the government allowing some sort of fair competition.
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.
 
bill142
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:48 pm

Maybe the Italian government should look at changes to Alitalia management. Perhaps employing management which is competent. Selling it to tha KLM-AF group probably won't be a bad idea.

Forcing BA/LH to reduce fares in order to protect its own entity isn't the way to go.
 
rabenschlag
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:55 pm

this is ridiculous. the ENAC has no power on a european level. if anything, such orders would come from brussles. who would enforce such orders? maybe its wishful thinking by the italian authorities.

if it is not profitable, let it die! there are too many long-haul carriers within central europe.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:20 pm

BA and LH can tell Italy to go suck an egg - the EU aviation market is fully liberalised now, no national government can override the EU where this market is concerned. AZ must live or die on its own merits, the Italian governments pathetic attempts to keep this monster alive are bordering on the ridiculous.

Instead of insisting AZ's competitors voluntarily give up their market advantage because AZ can't compete, they should be dealing with AZ's unions head on, telling them that if they don't pull finger and get some major efficiency concessions out of AZ's staff, the whole things going down the tubes. The Italian travelling public is voting with their feet (and their wallets) - if AZ can't take the competition, they have no place in the market.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
cedarjet
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:18 pm

Ho ho. Alitalia seem to think it's still the 70s (their appalling service is further proof of this). The idea of BA and LH putting their fares up to protect a useless airline in Italy at the expense of millions of air travellers is repellent. No wonder KLM backed off. Me too. Goodbye Alitalia.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
flylondon
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:45 pm

Nice to see Italy moving into the 21st century and embracing capitalism!
Such a pathetic display of attempted protectionism simply proves that on a level playing field Alitalia is unable to complete. Hopefully either the EU or WTO will do something against them.
 
777ER
Crew
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:59 pm

Does the Italian governement want its population to suffer with high fares? Competition is good as it provides the consumer with greater choices. Not every Italian will want to fly the National carrier.
 
trident2e
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:19 pm

As Italy is a member of the EU it has no power to dictate what airfares are charged by Community carriers.
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:47 pm

Bill142, I agree but it's not only the management. It's the employee unions which are resisting job cuts, wage cuts and productivity increases. The whole of Alitalia is a mess and should be left alone by the Italian government so that it can fade away, much like Sabena, TWA, etc. There are more than enough airlines in Europe to fill the void when and if Alitalia goes under.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
cedarjet
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:04 pm

777ER: "Does the Italian governement want its population to suffer with high fares?" Not only its population, it wants to punish the British and German populations as well. Sorry to come back to this, but I really think this is disgusting.

(Bicoastal, I think you're being unfair comparing TWA to Sabena.)
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
kim777fan
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:29 pm

Good to see a thread here where the Europeans and Americans are actually in full agreement. I fully concur with the group here and agree that the Italian government is out of line on this one. Lows fares and competition are good for ALL Europeans, including the Italians regardless of how it may affect Alitalia.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:55 pm

But I thought that here in the "Europen Union" all trade was unregulated. Guess I'm thinking wrong.

In principle yes. The movement of labor and capital is completely unrestricted (since 1992 IIRC), just like between US States.

Also by law a government tender can be bid on by companies in all EU countries, and preference cannot be given to bidders from any country.

"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:59 pm

This concerns me....the Italian government may get its way:

"Restricting prices ... is against the spirit of the internal market," said Stefaan de Rynck, spokesman at the EU's executive commission. But because the move is apparently covered by an old bilateral treaty, "there isn't actually any European basis which allows us to act."

Consumers should vote with their wallets and boycott Alitalia.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
flylondon
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:05 am

As an update British Airways have lodged a complaint with the European commison and also with the British Government who have in turn taken it up with the Italians. It seems the spat centres specifically around the Rome-New York route.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/TRAVEL/08/09/bt.alitalia.eu.fares.reut/

Lufthansa are not complaining to the German government or EU but instead are hoping to resolve it with direct talks.

I get a whiff of tit-for-tat following BA's objection to Alitalia's loan!
 
EconoBoy
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:32 am

Ha! Pragmatism takes second place to national pride. There must be a few other European airlines that are flabby, inefficient and hobbled by out of touch unions. They only survive thanks to handouts of tax payer's money doled out by their benign governments.
Its the survival of the fittest; time for some to fall by the way side.
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:47 am

I am glad that I finished my milk before reading this post. I had to laugh so hard that it surely would have shot out of my nose otherwise.
Anyway, this shows again how pathetic Alitalia and the Italian Government are.
The biggest cry babies in Europe. Even worse than French farmers!
 Big grin

There is NO WAY that eith LH or BA will back off.
And why should they?
I am sure that A LOT of Italians would still prefer those airlines to AZ even if the price was the same or even slightly higher.
I could go on for ages, but I have some studying to do.
 Sad
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
sarrebal
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:06 am

I really think it would be a great idea to get to know real facts before posting the usual inappropriate (if not stupid...no hard feelings!) comments.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:18 am

IMO AlItalia´s CEO can go suck an APU!

Big fistfight in the italian parlament a week ago.....puuhhleezee  Insane

Micke
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
ba319-131
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:23 am

If AZ cannot compete,let them die.

SN and SR both went under,if need be AZ can too.

AZ have been in big trouble for ages,yet they seem to act as if everything is ok,the start a fleet renewal process by adding 319/320/E170 and 772 at a time when they should be looking ways to reduce cost and improve their day to day operations,but no,totally the opposite.
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
sarrebal
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:53 am

We all know that Alitalia is not a study case you would put on your "How to perfectly manage an airline" new best seller book.

But that doesn't have anything to do with this particular situation.

Some real facts:

- There are bilateral agreements between most of the EU members that regulate the fares in the long-haul routes. Fares should not be lower than the ones applied by the third and fourth freedom-allowed carriers (The ones allowed to fly nonstop between the two countries). It's also called anti-dumping.

- It was just last February when Alitalia has been forced to increase its fares on some long-haul routes between two countries other than Italy (even though via Milan or Rome).

- The Italian civil aviation authorities asked about 40 airlines to increase certain fares, just to respect the bilateral agreements, which are still valid.

- All the 40 airlines but BA (yes, even LH) agreed to do so.

Now, we can discuss whether those bilateral agreements cause a damage or a distorsion to a free market or not. I personally think they do. IMO they should be lifted.
However, while they are still in effect, they must be observed.

 
matt777
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:33 am

Ciao Sarre!
Esatto, they DID sign those treaties and the HAVE TO comply with them. If it's not good for their accounts, tough luck.


"IMO AlItalia´s CEO can go suck an APU!"
It's a lack of respect to talk bad on someone when he is unable to respond to you.

"Anyway, this shows again how pathetic Alitalia and the Italian Government are."
Well, well, well... is enforcing the law pathetic? Is, by any chance, FAIR, that AZA had to comply with bilateral agreements and then when the others have to respect them they shove it up their $&#? Well, i think that making a complaint to the EU comission makes BA is pathetic because they don't know the RULES of the game.

"As Italy is a member of the EU it has no power to dictate what airfares are charged by Community carriers."
And the British are members of the EU and they do not respect bilateral agreements.


"Does the Italian governement want its population to suffer with high fares?" Not only its population, it wants to punish the British and German populations as well. Sorry to come back to this, but I really think this is disgusting."
Dumping is unfair competition. BA and LH selling indirect flights lower than Alitalia's direct flights is an uneficient macroeconomic way (those two carriers have more costs than the direct flight, nevertheless they sell at a lower price)

"Nice to see Italy moving into the 21st century and embracing capitalism!
Such a pathetic display of attempted protectionism simply proves that on a level playing field Alitalia is unable to complete. Hopefully either the EU or WTO will do something against them."

I repeat, it is just "compling with the rules". And by the way, the "most capitalist nation" (which I love so much) has applied protectionism against Argentina by downgrading her to CAT II, when we all know it was for political reasons. Argentine carriers can't increase frequencies to the USA, while AA introduced a daily DTW-EZE, Delta starts in October from ATL and AA again wan't to introduce the third EZE-MIA daily.

"BA and LH can tell Italy to go suck an egg - the EU aviation market is fully liberalised now, no national government can override the EU where this market is concerned. AZ must live or die on its own merits, the Italian governments pathetic attempts to keep this monster alive are bordering on the ridiculous.

Instead of insisting AZ's competitors voluntarily give up their market advantage because AZ can't compete, they should be dealing with AZ's unions head on, telling them that if they don't pull finger and get some major efficiency concessions out of AZ's staff, the whole things going down the tubes. The Italian travelling public is voting with their feet (and their wallets) - if AZ can't take the competition, they have no place in the market."


You are completely WRONG. Go back and study.

Oh, and by the way guys, Alitalia will be privatized (Italian Treasury ownership will go below 50%) in no less than 12 months. Complying with EU rules. Instead AF has still no privatization date.

Regards.
 
boo25
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:51 am

This is no big surprise  Insane

Alitalia are living in world of denial and still run the airline as if it was 1995 when the good times rolled.

It seems strange that they pick on BA ,as in terms of their reactions to world events they are worlds apart.
BA has taken on a severe costcutting programme , originally started in 97 and of course cutback even more drastically since 2001.
Almost 20,000 jobs have gone , approx £1.5 billion has been saved and huge sacrifices have been made in working agreements.

Supposedly , Alitalia has done nothing, despite huge handouts in the past and expecting more again now... they refuse to let any staff go and will not change their working agreements...

Well THAT is the reason they are struggling, not due to unfair competition - it is like Swissair all over again...
They need to restructure or start from fresh - you can't expect to have huge costs when your customer is looking around for low prices

Its about time they all stopped throwing their toys out of the pram and started a long overdue head reduction / cost cutting programme, otherwise none of them will have a job to go to.
 
QIguy24
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:37 pm

Esatto, they DID sign those treaties and the HAVE TO comply with them. If it's not good for their accounts, tough luck.

Why the heck should other airlines suffer because Alitalia can't get their finger out of the rear end? If you see all those European airliners like BA, LH, SK and so on, they have really struggled and worked hard to keep the costs low. What have Alitalia done? Absolutely NADA. They keep getting money from their government in hope for better days. But guess what? This is 2004, those better days like before will never come. And you have to manage your company after these circumstances. But is Alitalia doing that? I guess no. If they did, they damn sure didn't Need all those money they got recently.

So this treaties can only be used for 1 thing, and that is to wipe your rear end with.
 
Turin_airport
Posts: 273
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:07 pm

Hi all,
I report what a Lufthansa speaker said about this affair:

" This kind of laws (that prevent foreigner airlines to have lower prices than the national ones) exist and are applied since a long time in Germany and in many other European countries. It's Italy's right, who never did it before, to ask that foreigner airlines respect this law"

So guys, don't be so quick to jump to the wrong conclusions. Free market is a good thing, but must work both ways.

Ciao.

T_a
 
airblue
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:26 pm

I always love these airlines like BA who always claims about free market and deregulation....

So when we start to talk about Bermuda II??

 
QIguy24
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:30 pm

I report what a Lufthansa speaker said about this affair:
What lufthansa speaker said that? So far the only hting I've heard is LH and BA rejecting it.
 
GuyBetsy1
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:37 pm

I know some people who would avoid flying with Alitalia at any cost no matter what their fares are.

Seems that Alitalia have a bad habit of losing people's luggage.. and ground staff couldn't be bothered in offering any assistance.

So much for SkyTeam teamwork.
 
Turin_airport
Posts: 273
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:39 pm

QIguy24, this is the news (in Italian) by the Italian news agency ANSA: "Lufthansa chooses the soft way. Let's negotiate with Enac" (in bold what I translated in my above post)

ALITALIA: LUFTHANSA SCEGLIE LINEA MORBIDA,TRATTIAMO CON ENAC
(ANSA) - FRANCOFORTE - Lufthansa sceglie, a differenza di British Airways, la linea 'morbida' nella vertenza che la vede contrapposta all'Alitalia e al governo italiano riguardo ai prezzi dei voli internazionali. Secondo quanto riportato dal 'Financial Times', infatti, le autorita' italiane hanno chiesto ad alcune compagnie aeree europee, tra cui British Airways e Lufthansa, di alzare i costi di alcuni collegamenti intercontinentali in partenza dall'Italia per cercare di salvare il vettore italiano, sull'orlo del fallimento. ''Siamo in trattative dirette con il governo italiano'', hanno confermato all'ANSA fonti ufficiali della societa' tedesca, lasciando cosi' intendere di non volere presentare ricorso a Bruxelles contro la decisione presa dall'Enac. British Airways, invece, ha chiesto alla Commissione europea di intervenire per bloccare una disposizione che viola le norme a tutela della concorrenza. ''Lufthansa non commenta le vicende relative alle leggi nazionali'', hanno proseguito da Francoforte, sede del gruppo tedesco, spiegando tuttavia che ''una legge di questo tipo (che impedisce ai vettori stranieri di praticare prezzi inferiori a quelli nazionali, ndr) esiste e viene applicata gia' da tempo in molti altri paesi europei, tra cui la Germania''. ''E' diritto dell'Italia, quindi, che finora non l'aveva mai fatto, chiedere l'osservanza di questa legge'', hanno aggiunto dalla Lufthansa.
(ANSA)

T_a
 
QIguy24
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:47 pm

I believe you Turin,
But I just find it funny that they say something else in the news. But then again it's the media. Who should you trust?  Smile

But honestly, don't you think it's wrong that other airlines have to raise their prices just to satisfy and save Alitalia? Only the strongest airline will win and those who can't compete, well I hate to say this but GOOD BYE with them.

SAS were in deep trouble recently, but they managed to get control of it without having to ask other airlines to raise their fares. And SAS is doing pretty good now. They even raised the fares them selves to make more profit.

 
airblue
Posts: 1785
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:49 pm

Seems that Alitalia have a bad habit of losing people's luggage..

Here the statistics of June 2004 (and not what a friend of a friend told to a friend of my cousin....)


Source: AEA.be

Nº of Bags Missing
per 1 000 pax

Air France 13.5
Alitalia 11.7
British Airways 20.3
Bmi 14.7
Iberia 10.0
KLM 23.2
Lufthansa 16.7
Austrian 14.4
SAS 13.5
SN Brussels Airlines 8.5
TAP Air Portugal 14.9

So as you can see AF, KL, BA, LH they are performing worst than AZ....
 
Turin_airport
Posts: 273
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:59 pm

But honestly, don't you think it's wrong that other airlines have to raise their prices just to satisfy and save Alitalia? Only the strongest airline will win and those who can't compete, well I hate to say this but GOOD BYE with them.

As I said before, it must work both ways: if in Germany (or in other countries) airlines can have these benefits from local laws , it's not a shame that Alitalia can receive a similar treatment.

Just my 2 cents.

Ciao.

T_A
 
matt777
Posts: 476
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:21 pm

Grazie Airblue!

"Seems that Alitalia have a bad habit of losing people's luggage"

Just shows how under-rated Alitalia is.



Qlguy: You think that it is unfair that Alitalia recieved a bridge loan (that was aprooved by lots of national an itnl. banks) to carry out it's restructuring, while the USA Government, that always talks about Free Market, has given billions BILLIONS of aid to their airlines? UA, US, DL, AA. Almost all would have gone down the toilet. And those carriers compete with AZ, AF, LH, BA etc.

So ok, let's make it clear:

If the US does it, Italy can't.
If Germany asks the law to be respected, Italy then can't.

Well, these days are over.

Regards.
 
f.pier
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:48 pm

I think that this rule, if exist, is really bad and must be canceled.
I wanna be free to choose. I know that the "bridge loan" will never be given back by AZ because they don't have the money, but I CAN'T ACCEPT to be obliged to choose a more expensive flight because of AZ caprices.

I've already given too much money to that "airline". My wallet is closed now. Forever.
 
matt777
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2001 8:55 am

RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:55 pm

You think any american carrier will return the loan?
Anyway, taxpayers don't have to forget, that the continuation of Alitalia's operations mean income for the treasury in Value Added Tax (IVA) of tickets, raw materials, tax on buldings, airplanes. And also income tax of the employees. So one should sit down and do the math.

Nonetheless, Alitalia will be privatized by this government in less than a year. And that will mean just money for the Italian treasury, for taxpayers.

Regards.
 
f.pier
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:03 pm

I don't care about what americans will do. I only know that "I" have already given AZ too much money and AZ given me nothing back but more taxes to pay to keep it "in service".

I think that when AZ will cease ops, people will travel, with or without AZ, so another airline (or more than one) will get born and VAT will be paid by these new airlines.

If you want to privatiza something, you should be sure that there is something to sell, because I don't think I'd spend money to buy a debt mountain.

How much do you think should cost an AZ share? I think it should have a negative price.
 
donder10
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:06 pm

Dumping is unfair competition. BA and LH selling indirect flights lower than Alitalia's direct flights is an uneficient macroeconomic way (those two carriers have more costs than the direct flight, nevertheless they sell at a lower price)


And Alitalia do the same thing.I was flicking through fares from LHR to YYZ at Christmas and AZ was the cheapest option.


So when we start to talk about Bermuda II??
Considering that BA have clearly stated that they want B2 to be scrapped,now if you want.


Nonetheless, Alitalia will be privatized by this government in less than a year. And that will mean just money for the Italian treasury, for taxpayers.


That is assuming that somebody actually wants to acquire the airline.Considering it is still bleeding money and the unions are not prepared to increase flexibility among their workers, it is unlikely AZ can be sold.
 
matt777
Posts: 476
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:15 pm

" I think it should have a negative price"
It shows how bad you know how the stock market works. No share has a negative price.

Oh, 3 things.
- Who will want to buy AZ? Well, there are already some entrepreneurs that want to buy some stakes. There was an article on AZ that named a few.

- Do you think that no one will want to buy an airline that is a "STAR", i.e. a Co. that has high market share (about 50%) and high market growth (+4%p.a. for 10 years)?

- Price wars and Dumping (not legal) are not good for the industry.
 
f.pier
Posts: 1405
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:46 pm

Maybe you haven't realized that I was thinking "in theory". I know that shares cannot have negative price (maybe you don't remember that I have an university degree in business), but I only said that, according to the economic situation, AZ shares should have a negative price.

Dumping is when you sell something at a price lower than the costs you had to produce it.

BA & LH have been selling tickets for many years at a lower price than AZ, this means that they can earn money at that price.

This is not dumping, this is economic efficiency.
 
sarrebal
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RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:20 am

The point is:

- There is a rule (in this case, those bilateral agreements).
- No matter how bad the rule is, it MUST be observed.
- Should the EU or the EU members (whatever it is in that mess called EU) change or lift those rule, then we start talk about it.

Period.
 
matt777
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2001 8:55 am

RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:28 am

Well, BA is operating at a loss on those routes, trying to take pax away from AZ in an unfair way, in order to make that last "finish it" kick so then they can get all the market for themselves and, as there is much less competiton they hike up prices. (where is the efficency?)

Isn't this dumping? (you forgot the second part of the definition, which is like "in order to take out competition of the way and then when you are the price-maker, rise prices and pay-off what you lost)
 
f.pier
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Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 2:50 am

RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:00 am

OK, but if they kick AZ out of the business, they'll still have LH, LX, AF... I think they'll "dump" for a long time to kick these airlines out of italian business.
 
matt777
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2001 8:55 am

RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:08 am

The point is:

- There is a rule (in this case, those bilateral agreements).
- No matter how bad the rule is, it MUST be observed.
- Should the EU or the EU members (whatever it is in that mess called EU) change or lift those rule, then we start talk about it.

Period.


Exactly.  Laugh out loud

[Edited 2004-08-10 18:08:44]
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2303
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:14 am

Hang on Matt

If BA somehow manage to make AZ go bust, what about the Likes of UA who offer non-stop USA-Italy flights, or AF, LH, KL etc. Fares aren't going to go up, you'll find you get AA and UA 777s in your door more than ever before.

And no doubt, some other company will take up the italian traffic rights and start service. The trouble is, it is very hard to change a company like AZ. Ansett, Swissair, Sebana and even Braniff were all the same.... and the rest my friend, is history. For italy to prevent this, italy would need to withdraw from the European Union. I somehow don't think they're going to be willing to do this for Alitalia's sake.

I suggest you get used to flying Air France.... it is likely to be Aitalia's replacement.
 
sarrebal
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:10 am

RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:21 am

italy would need to withdraw from the European Union.




THAT WOULD BE A BLESSING FOR EVERY ITALIAN!
 
matt777
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2001 8:55 am

RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:26 am

"what about the Likes of UA who offer non-stop USA-Italy flights"

Haha, well, actually UA operated daily IAD-MXP, but then they went out, and now Alitalia operates the same route. If, and if AZ goes bust I don't see why UA will not refuse to fly that profitable route. But it will demand time for the adjustment.
And, when a company that has 50% of the national market fails and dissapears it is not covered immediately. In the mean time, they will ask 400 Euros for a LIN-FCO.

And the thing about Italy withdrawing from the EU, well... Italy is the one that is calling for the respect of the law. And Italy is the country that respects Maastricht agreements. But France and Germany don't, and they should be punished.

Btw, I'm getting used to the new AZ 777-200ER. And I am preparing to fly to Shanghai and LAX with the "Tricolore" tail.
 
f.pier
Posts: 1405
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 2:50 am

RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:26 am

It would be a tragedy.

I DIDN'T VOTE FOR BERLUSCONI
THE EUROPEAN UNION: MY COUNTRY

[Edited 2004-08-10 18:27:19]
 
User avatar
FlyCaledonian
Posts: 1731
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Italians Demanding BA&LH Raise Fares

Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:28 am

Hell, so when I've flown MAN-AMS-JFK, LHR-FRA-KIX, LHR-FRA-NRT, etc because its is cheaper than flying direct, KL and LH have been breaking the law by offering me, the consumer, a cheaper fare? Shocking isn't it that AZ now wants BA, LH, etc to stop doing this, just at a time when they're in real trouble.
Let's Go British Caledonian!

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