squirrel83
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Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:01 pm

Why is there no DFW-LHR Service and if there is who? I looked into most airlines and even BA doesnt have a DFW destination. . and I know AA flys DFW-LGW, and they fly threw ORD-LHR.

Just thought it was interesting that no one flys DFW-LHR direct.
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daumueller
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:14 pm

simple question / simple answer: Bermuda II

according to bermuda II, no airline is allowed to fly DFW-LHR since AA flys DFW-LGW

cheers,

ben
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:15 pm

Under the Bermuda II pact between the US and the UK, Dallas/Ft. Worth is not one of the "approved" metro city areas which is eligible to receive service from Heathrow.

Interestingly enough, BA has a provision in the pact which states that if no US carrier is operating the route from a LGW-designated city, then they are able to switch that authority over to LHR.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
squirrel83
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:22 pm

The air agreement between the two countries, known as Bermuda II after the place it was negotiated, has been in force since 1977. It limits access to the market, especially to London's Heathrow Airport, and controls pricing . Efforts to negotiate an open skies agreement that would free up competition have been fruitless, with U.S. negotiators breaking off the most recent round of talks after seeing no signs of a willingness to change on the part of their British counterparts and suspending all future negotiations indefinitely.

'For over 20 years the U.K. has withstood all of the unrelenting attacks on the agreement ... and has steadily increased its dominance in the U.S.-U.K. market to the detriment of U.S. consumers,' Wolf said. 'At this point there is only one proper course of action for the U.S. government to follow: renounce Bermuda II.'

When a country renounces an air agreement, the terms of the agreement remain in force for one year after which air travel usually continues on a reciprocal basis until a new agreement is negotiated.

The U.K. unilaterally renounced the first Bermuda agreement, a more consumer-friendly, pro-competition pact, in 1976 and threatened to block all air service unless the U.S. agreed to the more restrictive Bermuda II accord.

Hmm interesting; I guess im stunned that such a market mover city such as DFW wouldnt be approved or ever applied . . .
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thomasphoto60
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:45 pm

IAH is in the same boat as DFW, though we do have a direct BA flight via ORD. Houston has been fighting for a N/S LHR service since the late 60s....one day perhaps.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
adh214
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:55 pm

BTW, BA does provide service between DFW and LGW.

Andrew

[Edited 2004-08-09 13:56:14]
 
trident2e
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:16 pm

Fly777UAL - that's very interesting. Would there ever be a case for AA stopping LGW service, thereby allowing BA to have the route authority transferred to LHR, then to code share with BA on an LHR service?
 
Snoopy
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:24 pm

BA does provide service between DFW and LGW.

A remnant of the BCAL days....I remember flying LGW-DFW-LGW in 1980 when I went over to do my PPL. It was a great flight.....
 
aa777jr
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:27 pm

That Bermuda II agreement is crazy, learn something new everyday. Regards.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
jasepl
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:55 pm

This has been done to death, but here's what Bermuda II says:

Flights can go to LHR only from these airports:
ANC, BWI, BOS, ORD, DTW, LAX, MIA, MSP, JFK, EWR, PHL, SFO, SEA, IAD

In addition the designated British carriers (BA & VS) may fly from LHR to the following airports provided an American carrier is not already flying from said airport to LGW:
ATL, DFW, DEN, IAH, PHX, PIT, SAN, SFO, TPA.

This means that, were UA to start DEN-LGW, BA too would have to switch their flights to LGW. Conversely, if AA were to stop flying DFW-LGW, BA can start DFW-LHR.

I might have messed up a couple of the airports, but I think I got them largely right.

* Note that Bermuda II only governs British and American carriers. This means, in theory at least, that those carriers that have access to US airports from LHR (AI, KU and NZ) can fly LHR-DFW if they manage to negotiate it!
 
antonovman
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:58 pm

I think when BA "merged" with Bcal, one of the stipulations was that the ex BCal
services to the US were not moved to LHR for some reason
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:34 pm

Hmm interesting; I guess im stunned that such a market mover city such as DFW wouldnt be approved or ever applied . . .

Cities didn't get approved, nor did they apply. The US cities that had non-stop flights to Heathrow when the pact was signed were grandfatherd in: Boston, New York City, Newark, Washington, Miami, Detroit, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Seattle.

BA does provide service between DFW and LGW.


No, BA flies DTW-LHR.
a.
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:38 pm

MAH456

BA do actually fly DFW-LGW as BA2192/2193 every day on 772's

Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
bartond
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:48 pm

I'm doubting that AA will ever stop DFW-LGW service seeing as they have 3x daily flights in the summer and double daily 772s for the rest of the year. They do quite a bit better than BA on this route.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:04 pm

MAH456

BA do actually fly DFW-LGW as BA2192/2193 every day on 772's


Nevermind, I for some reason though they poster said DTW-LGW. Sorry about that. Yes, BA does fly DFW-LGW, though it is one their poorest performing trans-Atlantic routes.
a.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:14 am

BA has a provision in the pact which states that if no US carrier is operating the route from a LGW-designated city, then they are able to switch that authority over to LHR

...assuming they can meet the required pax throughput between that city and London every 2 consecutive years.



then to code share with BA on an LHR service?

AA cannot codeshare on any BA transatlantic flight that operates between the USA and London or vice versa.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
StearmanNut
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:33 am

PHX has a daily PHX-LHR flight. 747-400. Used to be a 777, but evidently, they needed more seats. I lay in the pool every evening and I see this big beautiful monster overhead at about 8:10PM as it departs northeastward off PHX 26R.
If wishes were horses, a Tail Dragger I would fly...
 
NWA757
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:35 am

According to a knowledgable source no airline is allowed to fly DFW-LHR since AA flys DFW-LGW. It would be nice to see British Airways fly to LHR out of DFW. Maybe in the future.....
Fly High!
 
muttley35
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:21 am

Nevermind, I for some reason though they poster said DTW-LGW. Sorry about that. Yes, BA does fly DFW-LGW, though it is one their poorest performing trans-Atlantic routes.
What are the figures to back this statement ? I fly this route a couple times each year and have yet to see a spare seat .In fact I have prayed for a half full plane but to no avail.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:25 am

What are the figures to back this statement ? I fly this route a couple times each year and have yet to see a spare seat .In fact I have prayed for a half full plane but to no avail.

I don't have figures, I have sources, which I have no reason to doubt. The route was on its death bed and almost dropped back in 2002. There was even some little mentions of it in public media.

Regardless of how full or empty the flight is, BA has not been able to lure lucrative business travelers on the route, as AA has them all. Also, this route will likely loose first class service in 2005, in favour of the C/Y+/Y config used to destinations like Denver, Calcutta, and Montreal. BA will be expanding use of this configuration in 2005. Dallas is a very likely canidate. Atlanta also looks like it will loose first class.

a.
 
bartond
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:28 am

Muttley - I'm not positive on whether or not the route performs great/poorly but if you go to DFWairport.com and find traffic statistics, you can see how many pax fly on the route each month. Divide the # of pax by 30 or so days in the month and figure out how many pax/flight. The past few months it has been in the 150-190 area, not nearly enough to fill a 772 (how many seats does BA have on their transatlantic 772s?).

So, I think people assume that the reason they keep the flight going is that BA must sell a good number of the premium seats on a consistent basis.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:30 am

Barton...

...they're still waiting on you at Airwise  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
squirrel83
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:33 am

Thanx for the responses ~

Here is the seating for the 772 atlantic ~ it looks about right 190 pax http://www.seatguru.com/british/B777.shtml


119 in Economy on a 772


[Edited 2004-08-09 23:38:00]
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bartond
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:39 am

Squirrel - I might be retarded but I'm counting about 229 seats. Either way I don't think this flight ever goes out very full.

Muttley - you said you fly this route a few times a year and it does well?
 
muttley35
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:55 am

Bartond, No what I said in response to MAH's comments that the route performs poorly was that whenever I have flown it the plane has been full.Maybe I am just flying on the wrong days ?? In fact last year I got an upgrade because economy was full as did the lady sat next to me.Which I guess backs up MAH's other comment that BA are struggling to attract business passengers on this route.
The last time I did a net search on this route I found a good number of indirect routes from LGW to DFW with AA which may also be impacting on numbers but I can only repeat that in my experience economy at least has always been full.
 
muttley35
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:58 am

By the way I am flying this route Saturday and returning Sunday so if I can see straight I will give a full report Monday night
 
zonks
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:18 am

By the way, does anyone have a link to the exact wording of Bermuda II? This topic seems to come up a lot here on A.net and it'd be useful to be able to consult the document.
 
texdravid
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:51 am

You want to know why the BA LGW-DFW-LGW flight may not be performing up to expectations?

Because a large part of a transatlantic crowd from DFW are foreigners like Indians (like myself) who gave up on BA. The LGW angle, I would argue, is the number one impediment to more people flying the route.

People line up miles deep to get on the LH flight to Frankfurt, because it has ready connections to the world. What does Gatwick have? Certainly not easy connections.

So if BA wants more traffic, send us to the big honcho airport in London.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:56 am

It's been mentioned on here plenty of times that BA apparently has poor yields from premium passengers on the LGW-DFW route. Just because the flight is full doesn't mean BA is making lots of money - could be discounted tickets, upgrades, etc. PHX is apparently the same. The switch to a 744 6xweekly (From a daily 777) was meant to see if an improvement in yield could be generated by carrying more passengers. SAN, CLT and PIT have been dropped by BA in recent years. DFW, PHX and BWI could also be at risk. BA won't maintain those routes for prestiege - look what's its done to its Far East network (KIX, NGO, SEL, MNL, TPE and KUL all dropped).

Bermuda II is a perpetual headache. Solving it won't be easy, though just rolling over and letting CO, DL, NW and US in AND giving them slots is not the answer. Slot trading is a grey area, but maybe should look at letting them buy their way in. The issue would remain though what BA and VS would gain. BA won't accept the alliance with AA alone as a reward, and VS would certainly expect something. As for BD, well depends where they want to fly to whenever any agreement is reached!
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
squirrel83
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:13 am

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bartond
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:02 am

Oh Caledonian I thought it was the opposite - BA does fairly well filling up the premium seats but overall does not fill up the plane very well. I thought that's why they continue with the service is that they make up for a lack of economy pax with high paying biz pax. Just speculation.
 
MontanaFL
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:09 am

If I understand this correctly, according to Jasepl comments above, BA could fly TPA-LHR. Why then is BA flying TPA-LGW and not LHR? From what I understand, BA does very well on this route but being that the majority of travelers would prefer to fly into LHR over LGW, why don't they fly this route? Does it have to do with slots into LHR? Maybe I just answered my own question.
I miss those DL L-1011's
 
brons2
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:31 am

perhaps they should get more serious about routing more traffic into LGW if it's such a problem to give up slots at LHR.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
cbphoto
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:03 pm

Jasepl:
Interesting how on that list MSP is the only city without non-stop service to LHR. Why is that??? No market, too much competition from NWA, although they only go into LGW. Why is that MSP has no direct LHR service?? Icelandair is the only foreign Carrier to get you to LHR with a short hop in Iceland. Of course there is ORD, and the entire east coast.
I wish there was MSP-LHR n/s flights.
hmm...
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
newkai
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:27 pm

Wasn't there once DFW-IAD-LHR Concorde service codeshared with Braniff?
 
jasepl
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:15 pm

MontanaFL: I might have messed up a couple of the airports and TPA might be one of them! Sorry!

Cbphoto: American carriers are permitted to fly MSP-LHR. However, since only AA or UA can fly into Heathrow, unless one of them decides to do it, it won't happen. NW can't.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:12 am

So if BA wants more traffic, send us to the big honcho airport in London.

...they'd love nothing more. Only problem being: it's not their decision to make



BA could fly TPA-LHR.

Not now they couldn't.



Why then is BA flying TPA-LGW and not LHR?

Not enough throughput to meet the required threshold for a switch. That, and I rather doubt they'd give up that slot at LHR.




Interesting how on that list MSP is the only city without non-stop service to LHR.

Not true. ANC is also among the permanently approved LHR gateways, but currently with no nonstop service.



Why is that???

Because MSP-LHR is open to UA/AA only, and they aren't interested.




Wasn't there once DFW-IAD-LHR Concorde service codeshared with Braniff?

Actually, it was operated by Braniff, who was the only other carrier besides AA & BA to operate Concorde service (and no, before some moron screams it... SQ never operated Concorde service).
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
jasepl
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:02 am

and no, before some moron screams it... SQ never operated Concorde service

Don't be so sure Concordeboy! There was a joint BA-SQ Concorde service between London and Singapore, albeit short-lived. BA operated the London-Bahrain segment and SQ did the Bahrain-Singapore bit. They even painted the aircraft with both BA & SQ liveries; one on each side. I'm sure I have a pic or two somewhere on my computer. I'll try and look for it.

Now, whether it was technically an SQ-operated service may be up for debate. I don't have an answer for that.

What I do know is that the LHR-BAH-SIN joing BA-SQ service did occur, but didn't last long. Something to do with not being able to so supersonic over India because the sheep were getting scared or something.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:06 am

Don't be so sure Concordeboy! There was a joint BA-SQ Concorde service between London and Singapore

Sorry Jase, but....
*hands Jasepl the baited-moron tiara & sash*  Laugh out loud


G-BOAD was operated in dual livery with some SQ FAs... but that's it. All operational licensing was under the sole command/responsibility of BA.

[Edited 2004-08-10 20:08:25]
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
jasepl
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:18 am

whether it was technically an SQ-operated service may be up for debate

Dear Concordeboy,

I knew you'd come up with something! That's why I wrote the up for debate thing.

By the way, I love the tiara and sash. Did you make them yourself? Now, if only I could finds shoes to match...

Love,

Moron


* curtsies

[Edited 2004-08-10 20:20:55]
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why No DFW-LHR Service?

Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:27 am

lol, finally... new members with a decent sense of humor  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!