lat41
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United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:30 am

Does anyone have information on the SUD aviation Caravelles that were in the United fleet in the 60s? What was their time frame in the fleet? How many did they have? I beleive I saw one as a kid on approach to Providence in the pre 737 days. I wonder what destinations did they served. They must have replaced DC-6s at some point.
 
PanAm747
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:40 am

I know that the last flight of the day ORD-LGA and LGA-ORD was a "Businessman's Special" on special Caravelles - male passengers only, and what we would call business class seats today.

Imagine telling a female CEO she can't get on the plane as a passenger, but she's welcome to help sling drinks and food to the male passengers. You've come a long way, baby!!

That's all the information I have...I know they didn't last long in the fleet with the 737's entering service.
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desertjets
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:02 am

Off the top of my head I am thinking the number was about 20, and they were retired by 1973 or thereabouts.

Reg #s were from N1001U to N1020U... so twenty frames exactly. Entry into service from May 1961 to February 1962. Retired from service from May 1970 to March 1973.

http://www.geocities.com/~aeromoe/fleets/airlines.html

The Caravelles and 720s were both completely retired in the early 70s after large numbers of 727-100s, -200s, and 737-200s came online.

[Edited 2004-08-10 19:08:45]
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
timz
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:10 am

The men-only flights left around 5 PM, not the last flight of the day. They were DC-6s out of LGA; when the Caravelle took over it flew out of Newark.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:20 am

DESERTJETS has it correct. UA had 20 of the "screamin Banshees". The Caravelle Model VI was a very loud plane on taxi and T/O. I loved every minute of it, too.
Two and two seating and the windows were tear drop shaped...very odd.
The Model VI had slightly larger cockpit windows then the early Caravelle models.
United instructed SUD to install them for better visibility.
A little know fact was that in 1960 or 61 TWA ordered the Caravelle but had to Xcle because of poor funds at that time. Mr. Hughes had something to do with that because he held TWA's pursestrings and the Convair 880's that TW had also ordered. Remember that TW credit was bad so the Convair 880 were accually ordered by Hughes Tool Corp, a major stockholder in TWA.

TWA ended up getting the Convairs because HH was convinced by the board that TW needed the smaller jet to survive. AA and UA didn't have a plane like that, except for UA's 20 Caravelles. Don't write back and tell me about the 727-100. That came a couple of years later, ok?
Onward and Upward, everyone....

safe
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timz
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RE: UA Caravelles In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:43 am

Oh yeah, what destinations. Last time this came up, didn't we say they got as far west as Omaha? Never farther?
 
MarcJet66
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:47 am

They were wonderful. I wish I could have flown on one of those beauties.
Marcos
 
stirling
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:12 am

Timz-

I asked a UA oldtimer that same question a few years ago. Omaha is a fair guess as to how far west they traveled. Same guy told me that they spent most of their time based out of ORD, PIT and CLE, flying most of the higher-density Capital routes previously flown with the Viscount. First flight was IDW-ORD 14Jul61.
United's models had the optional thrust reverser, hence the "R" in Caravelle VI-R

Anyone know the story of F-WJAP? This was the VIR prototype, painted in United colors, but am I to understand correctly it never enter revenue service for UA, instead winding up at Cruzeiro Do Sul in Brasil. (?)

United Caravelles lacked the long thin dorsal fin extending forward along the upper fuselage, and which was common to most Caravelles.
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isitsafenow
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:16 am

MSP and OMA was the most westerly cities. The reason was the maintenance base for the SUD' S which was in the east but I forgot where(grayhair has its drawbacks). They were not long distance planes. ORD to NYC was the longest route I believe it had not peeking into my timetables from the early and mid 60's.
safe
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whitehatter
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:18 am

The Caravelle was originally intended to be a joint project with Douglas managing the US side of things, and a production facility established in the US.

They instead opted for a design of their own which became the DC-9.

Lovely aircraft though. Some of the Caravelle was directly lifted from the Comet, but it had a unique look and feel to it. That's probably why there are a number in preservation by enthusiasts rather than just museums.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
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yyz717
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:19 am

Saw it very rarely on ORD-YYZ probably subbing for a 721/732. Don't believe it was ever scheduled into YYZ.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:33 am

STIRLING...I show that F-WJAP was built in Aug of 59 and went to Varig as PP-VJC in Sept of same year. It was a series Three aircraft. UA were 6R's as you stated.
F WJAP went on to Air France, Air Vietnam, back to Air France, to MEA, back to Air France(who was leasing this plane out) to Royal Air Maroc, Central African Govt, Air Centrafrique and finally scrapped in Feb of 83 in France.
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
rongotai
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:40 am

The UA Caravelles were delivered via PWK. I was completing my CPL written exams at PWK in September 1961 when N1007U came through. They did a short marketing flight for local travel agents and I got invited along. It was my only flight on a Caravelle and my first on a UA liveried aircraft. In fact it was my first sight of a UA aircraft.
 
masseybrown
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:09 pm

I actually flew UAL's Caravelles and I didn't much like them. That was UAL's fault, not the airplane's. UAL tricked them out in some version of "first class" that was much inferior in terms of comfort, space, and service to what was offered on 720's and DC8's, but they still charged top dollar first class prices. All you could say was they were a lot better than DC-6B's.

In their favor, they had terrific takeoff acceleration, much more exciting than today's planes.

As I recall UAL used them on their high frequency routes among BOS, EWR, LGA, PHL, CLE, PIT, DTW, ORD, ATL, MSY, MKE, MSP, OMA. UAL tried them on Florida routes from CLE and PIT; but they flopped when they went up against EAL's 720's and DC-8's with coach fares.

UAL's gouging me for CVL first class fares on some monopoly routes has made me avoid UAL ever since.
 
ordpark
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:24 pm

When I was a kid, I had the good fortune to live next door to a United Caravelle f/o - later Captain. He indulged my fascination with airplanes by taking me to EWR with him and virtually having the run of UA ops while he was on one day trips. (No security concerns to speak of back in the '60s!)

EWR was a BIG Caravelle station...service to PIT, CLE, ORD, DTW plus some routes you would never dream of today....EWR-TOL-ORD, EWR-FWA-SBN-ORD,
EWR-HSV-BHM. There were others, but they escape me at the moment...

In her last years, the Caravelles flew a lot of sports charters - teams loved them because of the all First class cabins. I remember once at BOS while I was attending college around 1971 or so, seeing two of them side by side operating chtrs for the Boston Bruins and St. Louis Blues during the Stanley Cup Playoffs....

They were great little airplanes...noisy as all get out, but to airplane buffs, of course, that's music to ones ears! Like all aircraft, eventually a better, quieter more fuel efficient replacement comes along, but in her day, she was a beauty!
 
milesrich
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:54 pm

United never operated the Caravelle in scheduled service in or out of LGA, although they did go there on charters. The Caravelle was introduced on July, 1961, the Capital-United merger initial schedule, and operated from IDL to ORD, initially. All NY flights with the Caravelle were soon shifted to EWR. Jet service at LGA began on June 1, 1964, with the 727. The Caravelles were retired and stored at DEN in 1971-72. Seven were sold off individually, and the last 13 went to Sterling. They operated the Executive from ORD to JFK then EWR from the initial schedule until their retirement. With the end of the Caravelle, so ended the Men Only Executive.

The VIR in UA service sat 64 in 16 rows of 2-2 seating. During its service, the CVL with United served, IDL(JFK), ORD, YIP, CLE, PIT, PHL, EWR, MIA, TPA, PBI, JAX, MSY, MOB, BHM, ATL, HSV, MEM, CHA, TYS, FWA, SBN, DSM, OMA, MSP, MKE, DTW, BOS, PVD, BDL, DCA, BAL, TOL, and IAD.
 
hnl-jack
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:29 pm

Unfortunately, I am old enough that I got to fly those magnificent airplanes many, many times. The best flight was ORD/SFO when the airplanes were sent for service checks. They generally would send out the Caravelle as a second section of another flight. With a light load the airplane could make it non-stop, but most often would make a fuel stop in Denver. It also seems to me that for a period of time there may have been a MKE - DEN flight. If not, OMA was the farthest west as mentioned in another post.

The flights between EWR and ORD were called "The Executive." Men only flights that served huge steaks, magnificent martinis, offered cigars and had a Playboy Magazine in every seat back.
 
RareBear
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:21 pm

Flew on a United Caravelle in 1967 from ATL-PIT-ATL. I had flown virtually all coach seating up to that time, so the first class seats were a treat.
Illegitimus non carborundum
 
isitsafenow
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:25 pm

MILESRICH.....You remembered Willow Run..kudos to you!
I did my Caravelle mileage with the youth fares or Z class. YIP-ORD for 6 bucks and
YIP-EWR for around twelve. I kept the receipt coupons. Z fare was fun but
space available, of course.
safe
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stirling
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:01 am

isitsafenow-

So why was F-WJAP painted up in UA colours?
Was she a demo?
See it's the dates that confuse me.
So she rolled off the line in 59, while the actual first UA flight wasn't until 61. She was painted in UA colours 2 years before UA actually got one? Interesting.
Was the VI-(R) even planned as of 59?
The pictures I have of F-WJAP are air-to-air shots, so I don't know if she even ever made it to the states?....I can imagine that in those days, a French, or European aircraft for that matter would be a big deal if it was ordered by a U.S. airline. Nothing like today.
So I suppose the answer to my own question, it had to be a Public Relations thing.(?)
One last thing. In 59, was Cruzeiro a part of Varig?
Thanks for helping me connect the dots!
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Tan Flyr
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:40 am

Back in the 70's in FWA I worked as a PT travel agent while going to school. The lady that owned the agency loved to tell stories about the Caravelles from FWA- EWR...dinner on china..the whole bit. If My memory serves me correct an early morning flight from ORD-FWA-EWR was offered and a return early evening (hence the dinner service) was what she mentioned.

Would not surprise me that the schedule would have included a stop at SBN. UA offered a ORD-SBN-FWA late night flight until 1979 or 80 (departed ORD at 10:51PM as I recall from when I was on it a few times) and this operated with a 722.

Funny thing..as I recall (doing a lot of that here arn't we!!) that flight deadheaded back to ORD with the mail about 2 AM. Would hear it on climb out when it used rwy 31 on cold winter nites.
 
access-air
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Thu Aug 12, 2004 11:57 am

I have a slide of an United Caravellle taxiing out for take off shot in January 1968, N1017U at Cedar Rapids, Iowa (CID).
I have no idea if it was a scheduled run or an aircraft sub but its neat none the less..

Access-Air
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timz
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RE: United Caravelles In The 60's

Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:54 am

As for how far west they got, I finally looked at the Airport Activity Statistics.

In 1962, Denver had a total of 7 Caravelle departures-- and 1 UA CV340 and 1 UA Viscount.

1963: 46 Caravelles, 1 UA Viscount, no UA CV340s.
1964: 47 Caravelles, 0 Visc, 0 CV340
1965: 64 Caravelle, 0 Visc/CV340
1966: 74 Caravelle, 0 Visc/CV340
1967: 139 Caravelle, 0 Visc/CV340
1968: 42 Caravelle

So I guess we'll check the 1967 timetable for scheduled flights to DEN.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:31 am

Sorry TIMZ, but I cannot back you up. IM not saying you are wrong but I cant help you. I checked two 1966 and two 1967 UAL timetables and a JUNE 1967 OAG and find no Caravelles by UA into or out of Denver. I found all other flights and cities listed on this thread but no Stapleton Caravelles.
safe
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LoneStarMike
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:55 am

Speaking of The Businessman's Special, here's a couple of ads from the 1950's when they were operated with the DC-6.




LoneStarMike

 
milesrich
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:31 am

United kept a Caravelle at Denver for training from time to time. But there were never any scheduled flights with them there. I have UA schedules for 1966, 1963 1964, 1965, and 1968. No Caravelles in Denver. Also they had to fly them to SFO for maintenance, and they may have stopped in Denver on the way, xince at the time, there was no UA city between LNK, and GJT other than Denver. There was only one or two flights a day to OMA with them, and only for a short period of time. MSP and DSM were the farthest western cities that received continuous CVL service. With its limited range, if they were ferrying a ship to SFO for maintanence from ORD, DEN would have been the perfect fuel stop.
 
fanofjets
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:13 pm

Three of these birds survive in the US:
New England Air and Space Museum

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Photo © Yevgeny Pashnin



Port Columbus, OH:

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Photo © Streep



Pima Air & Space Museum

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Photo © Paul Chandler



I agree, these are beautiful planes. My favorite scheme, however, was the old Air France (with the Cheval Vapeur on the nose).
The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
DIA
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:46 am

To add to Fanofjets list of U.S. Caravele survivors:

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Photo © Steve D Hall


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Photo © James Richard Covington, Jr



Now, to add to the Caravelles in Denver. . .I found these training photos:
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Photo © David Schulman


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Photo © David Schulman


Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
timz
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RE: United Caravelles

Sat Aug 14, 2004 6:30 am

"...F-WJAP was built in Aug of 59 and went to Varig as PP-VJC in Sept of same year. It was a series Three aircraft."

It seems there were two different Caravelles that carried that reg. The second one was a VI-R, and presumably that's the one that we've all seen the pics of in UA colors. The other one started as a I and converted to a III-- does that mean it couldn't have the large windshield that the UA-scheme F-WJAP had?
 
DIA
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Sat Aug 14, 2004 6:59 am

This is a UA Caravelle that had an incident at ATL. Interesting little gem of history here. Look at the doors on the Caravelle, I've never seen them "taped" off before. Caption tells all.
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Photo © Kjell nilsson


Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:31 am

TIMZ...After peeking in the "build book" I noticed there were two F-WAL one a model three and the other a 6N. I cannot find a UA plane with the F registration but there was one for photo publicity purposes. I have a color photo of that Caravelle with the F registration. It was probably N1001U.
Wonders never cease.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:42 pm

I remember back in 1973 or so UA had a Caravelle sitting on the ramp across from the Frontier hangar. Since I was there for training at TK, I was given a tour of it. My first time inside a Caravelle. My impressions? Quite nice, I liked the triangular windows as well as the door that rolled up on tracks, similar to how a garage door works, and all the tube-type radios behind the cockpit. The radio setup is very similar to our Martin 4-0-4.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
FlySSC
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Sat Aug 14, 2004 4:47 pm

United Airlines choose the day of July 14th 1961 to put in service its first Sud-Aviation Caravelle on the line New-York ---> Chicago.
The a/c, N1000U, was named "Ville de Toulouse".

20 Caravelles were sold to United in a modified version called -VIR. They were fitted with Rolls-Royce/Avon engines ( with thrust reverser ). They were also equipped with a stronger landing gear and a new windshield, to improve the visibitlity.


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m404
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RE: United Airlines Caravelle's In The 60's

Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:09 pm

Even though I've flown many in Europe and one in S. America I never got to use one of UAs beauties. I just loved the take off with those huge long wings and very high angle.

Only twice had I seen the UA planes. Once in mid-sixties some sports team came into LAS on one. Seems like it was baseball from Chicago. Then sadly once from the windows of a Frontier (the original) CV580 on landing in Lawton Oklahoma what seemed like at least half the fleet grounded and in storage. I've wondered if thats where they were sold from or actually broken up.

I will miss them as a thing of beauty.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding