irishpower
Posts: 371
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:18 am

Future Of T3/T4 At LHR

Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:05 am

Hey, I was just wondering once T5 opens at LHR and BA moves their operations over there, what is going to happen to T3/T4? Are any airlines currently at T3 moving over to T4? Will T3 be renovated?Is BA keeping some services over at T4 or will their Oneworld partners move either into T4 or go to T5 with them? What is going to happen to the terminals and airlines that currently serve T3 and T4?
 
worldoftui
Posts: 1054
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:18 pm

RE: Future Of T3/T4 At LHR

Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:42 am

I have heard differing reports that the Star Alliance want a terminal, T1 or T3 if I remember right. I also remember reading somewhere that they had made an official complaint to BAA over the sub-standard facilities of T3, especially when they are to be compared to T5, and are worried that it would put them at a commercial disadvantage.


Mark
 
northstardc4m
Posts: 2724
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 11:23 am

RE: Future Of T3/T4 At LHR

Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:49 am

ok, ill post "the plans" again as i know them:

Plan A (most likely): BA and Oneworld to T5 en mass. T1 converted to STAR terminal. Terminal 2 to be closed, rebuilt, possibly as Virgin or Skyteam terminal. T4 to take up carriers currently in T1/2 that are not STAR/OW and partially demolished (the remote finger) to allow additional carparks. T3 to be rebuilt in stages/linked to T5.

Plan B (also likely): Most Ba/OW services to T5, BA domestic/ireland to remain at T1, T2 rebuilt as eurohub, STAR possibly with Virgin and/or some non-aligned airlines to T4.

PLan C: Terminal 5 open season in part, BA retains T4 as well, T1 becomes STAR hub, T2 unchanged? T3 rebuild/linked to T5.

Plan D: requires opening of LHR to us airlines: T5 becomes OW, T4 Skyteam+Virgin, T1 STAR, T2 rebuilt as part of T3, non-aligned carriers use T2/3.

There are of course lots of possible outcomes. Alot depends on whos operating what by the time T5 opens. The BAA hasnt officially stated more than whats in the contract with BA regarding T5 yet, so alot of it is still unknown or undecided.

There are a few "wildcard" airlines as well: Emirates, El Al and some of the smaller European airlines (Luxair for example) that will need to be accomidated. El Al may get to use T4 or T5 regardless of what happens, just to allow them more room for their security services, which im told are shoe-horned into spaces at T1 currently.

Virgin will probably push to get T4 in part (if not in full) but BA still holds alot of the cards with that facility. Virgin might also push to be allowed to rebuild Terminal 2 as their "gateway" facility. Runway 23 could be a factor in any expansion of the terminals as well. It isnt officially closed yet, but might well be soon. IF and when it is, it would allow signifigant expansion of both Terminals 1 and 2.

Most of the plans i see for T3 have it becoming basically the mirror of T5 eventually. With remote concourses linked by a single tunnel running all the way between T3 and T5.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
EZYAirbus
Posts: 2318
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:57 am

RE: Future Of T3/T4 At LHR

Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:51 am

Star Alliance will be having Terminal 4, all BA flights, International and Domestic will be all going to T5.

Qantas are also moving to T5 with BA when it opens in 2008


Glenn
http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
 
iowa744fan
Posts: 906
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:31 pm

RE: Future Of T3/T4 At LHR

Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:29 am

Northstar,
If plan A is taken, do you know if they would renovate a bunch of the outside of terminal 4? Specifically, would they redo a bunch of the gate set ups? Currently, most, if not all of the gates are spaced so as to accomodate 747 size of aircraft (A380 too?). I know that many European carriers do operate larger aircraft to LHR, but a great deal of the ops are also smaller aircraft like the 737 and 320 families. Would they redo the gate spacing...add more gates...if T4 was made the new Euro terminal? Just curious since it seems that the European carriers would lose a lot of space...although you also have to consider which ones are in Skyteam, Star, etc. Oh well, it will be interesting to see what happens.

Also, quick question, in gates and ramp area, is T1 bigger than T4?
 
ba319-131
Posts: 8133
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 1:27 pm

RE: Future Of T3/T4 At LHR

Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:45 am

I too have heard that T2 will be demolished and re-built.

In addition,all of the Car Rental companies on the perimeter road are being moved to a new site of the A4 within the next 3 years,there goes my office view of T3 & 09L/27R Sad
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
Scott4AA
Posts: 319
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 11:36 am

RE: Future Of T3/T4 At LHR

Thu Aug 12, 2004 6:08 am

Will AA move with BA to T5?
American Airlines - We Know Why You Fly
 
irishpower
Posts: 371
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:18 am

RE: Future Of T3/T4 At LHR

Thu Aug 12, 2004 11:48 am

Does T5 have the capacity for ALL of BA's operations as well as AA,Qantas and the rest of Oneworld????

To form the terminal layout based on airline alliances seems like a bit of a risk (alliances add and delete airlines quite a bit)???


 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: Future Of T3/T4 At LHR

Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:51 am

Here is some more information: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1653989.

Will AA move with BA to T5?
Reply #2 says that the two most likely plans for the future of LHR call for AA to move to T5.

Does T5 have the capacity for ALL of BA's operations as well as AA,Qantas and the rest of Oneworld????
It looks pretty big from these photos:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stephen Boreham
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dean Barnes - AirTeamImages



To form the terminal layout based on airline alliances seems like a bit of a risk (alliances add and delete airlines quite a bit)???
Terminals (except LHR's T4  Big grin) are built to handle increased services, so adding an airline to an alliance would not be a problem. Almost all major airlines are already in an all alliance, very few switch, and it is a rare occasion that airlines "delete" an airline.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2565
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:15 pm

RE: Future Of T3/T4 At LHR

Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:48 pm

How's this for ultimate LHR expansion.

1. Demolish T1, T2 & T3 and rebuild the central terminal area in stages after opening of T5.

2. After finishing central terminal area, demolish cargo & T4 facilities and build a new runway south of Runway 9R-27L. Runway length could be around 2,500 to handle A380/744 landings. Maybe some homes may require purchasing, but most of the land is BAA. Somewhere cargo facilities can be built or move it out to Stansted.

Somebody ever think of this idea, instead of having a runway miles from the central terminal area. I know that there are some emission issues, but having a closer-in runway would definitely cut-down on emissions while taxiing miles to the far-away runway.
 
EZYAirbus
Posts: 2318
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:57 am

RE: Future Of T3/T4 At LHR

Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:29 pm

AA wont be following BA and Qantas to T5, it will strictly be BA/QF only!

Glenn
http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: Future Of T3/T4 At LHR

Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:45 pm

Carpethead, BAA is currently working on re-doing parts of T3. It is highly unlikely that any of the terminals will ever be completely torn down, especially T4.

T1, T2, and T3 are fairly close to the runway, but it is T4 that is a bit far from the runway.

AA wont be following BA and Qantas to T5, it will strictly be BA/QF only!
I do not mean to criticize you, but do you know that as "insider information"? The reason I ask is that there has not been anything official.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
JeffDCA
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:12 am

RE: Future Of T3/T4 At LHR

Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:56 pm

AA wont be following BA and Qantas to T5, it will strictly be BA/QF only!

I've heard differently from an LHR employee, it will be all One World airlines, AA, Finnair, BA, QF, Iberia... the lot!

T4 is being offered for use by VS, but they're still debating whether or not to take it due to the runway crossing situation (taxi delays due to having to cross an active runway).

Cheers,

Jeff

[Edited 2004-08-23 15:57:23]

[Edited 2004-08-23 15:58:27]
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
rwylie77
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Future Of T3/T4 At LHR

Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:03 pm

Surely T1 needs to be demolished and re-built - I hate it! It is so small as well, so surely there is no way that it could handle all of the Star Alliance! Also because it handles domestic flights, they would have to add a customs desk etc...also are the jetways big enough to handle larger planes because they currently handle small domestic planes...surely as space is the premium, it makes much more sense to have short haul/long haul terminals with suitably sized jetways and capacity similar to how it is set up now...
 
NYC777
Posts: 5066
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: Future Of T3/T4 At LHR

Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:50 pm

They should tear down T1-T3 (in stages) and replace it with a large, modern mega terminal where flight transfers are easier. It took me over an hour to transfer from terminal three (AA) to my connecting flight to Cork in terminal one. And we got lost trying to get to T-1. It's absoltely ridiculous. My wife was bitching at me for selecting the flights through Heathrow!
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3541
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Future Of T3/T4 At LHR

Tue Aug 24, 2004 4:45 am

"Surely T1 needs to be demolished and re-built - I hate it!"
Agreed.

"It is so small as well, so surely there is no way that it could handle all of the Star Alliance!"
Considering the size of the BA operation currently there, the Star Alliance operation is comparable.

"Also because it handles domestic flights, they would have to add a customs desk etc..."
What utter rubbish. Where do you think that passengers from South Africa, the USA, Hong Kong not to mention all the European flights clear customs ???.

"also are the jetways big enough to handle larger planes because they currently handle small domestic planes"
Well if you class a 744 or A346 as small planes then I guess that could be true.

"...surely as space is the premium, it makes much more sense to have short haul/long haul terminals with suitably sized jetways and capacity similar to how it is set up now..."
Not really - it's much more inconvenient for passengers to transfer terminals so if they can stay within the same one then connection times are less and also less chance of bags not making connections if they are in the same terminal.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3541
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Future Of T3/T4 At LHR

Tue Aug 24, 2004 4:56 am

I've posted this before in another thread not so long ago, but I'll say it again.

Currently STAR Alliance are planning on moving into T1 between 2008-2011. There are plans to extend the Europier out across runway 23 to create more stands.

There are "rumours" that T2 will be closed and refurbished (read: demolished) once T5 is open, also a possible plan is that One World Longhaul and all of BA will be in T5 and One World short haul will be in T2.

Virgin are planning to stay in T3 although everyone presumes they will move to T4. I've seen the plans to demolish the short stay car park and extend the terminal out as far as the end of South Wing. This will create a mini Virgin Terminal within T3. The long term future is for the Clubhouse to be moved to where the cafererias are above VS check in then linked to the new gates that are being built across the old "Hotel" cul-de-sac. No final plans are in place for the space that will be left between the new gates and South Wing - although if BAA have their way then more shops can be expected !!.

No firm plans as to what airlines will go to T4 as most airlines want to stay in the central area as it offers better connections for passengers.

Info I have is from a friend who is involved with the STAR relocation project, except the T3 plans which I have seen myself.

 Smile

"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
LHR27C
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:49 am

RE: Future Of T3/T4 At LHR

Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:49 pm

Regarding whether T5 will take all oneworld carriers or just BA/QF, available from the BAA's T5 website are a series of artist's impressions of the completed T5, including an overview of the complex showing the stands quite clearly. It's difficult to tell exactly which stands are split Left and Right, and also widebodies are shown at all the stands, however I estimate there are between 60 and 70 stands shown in total depending on how many are small, medium and heavy.

At the moment there are about 30 heavy stands at T4, of which BA uses most for most of the day. There are about 50 stands at T1 of which BA uses a good 30? So around 60 in total already. Obviously I have no inside information, however, I'm slightly dubious as to whether the entire oneworld operation at LHR would be able to fit into T5. Bear in mind that on a busy morning there can be as many as 6 AA aircraft on the ground at once, plus QF,CX,IB,AY,EI etc...

It does partly depend on whether the remote stands west of T3 which are currently used by T3 airlines will become stands for T5 airlines. They already have 5-- prefixes.

It's also planned to extend the current Alpha (outer) taxiway out towards 27R, making a parallel taxiway running all the way alongside which at the moment there isn't. Relocating Alpha will mean Bravo (inner) can also move out and as Leezyjet said then the Europier can be extended north-eastwards.
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward

Who is online