kl911
Posts: 3981
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A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 6:37 am

Just a question,

Marseille, close to where I live has more then 1.5 million citizens, but no Trans atlantic flights. Why is that? I understand AF wants everybody to fly via CDG, but with a million+ citizens it should be posible to fill a plane, like DL does to NCE, which is much smaller as well. Marseille area has many multinational companies, so I don't get it ........

Anyone?

KL911
 
SafetyDude
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:15 am

Well, if all those 1.5 million people fly at the same time, AF could certainly fill a plane. The issue though is that not everyone would to go to the same place (some might not even be going to North America), so routing passengers through CDG provides options for many cities.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
Alitalia744
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:19 am

Give continental a call, I'm sure they'd love more non-stop Euro destinations via 757s.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
kl911
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 am

Ohay, I understand that, but Marseille has also very limited European flights. How would an US city of about a million and a half citizen correspond to this? Would they have more flights? ( AMS only has 700.000 citizens... btw )
 
LHR27C
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:25 am

Absolutely, access to CDG provides onward connection to far more US destinations than possible out of Marseilles - all part of the "hub and spoke" system. And if people are desperate to fly to the US from that part of France they can go to NCE for the DL connection and transfer to the US cities they want once in the US.
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
 
Sabena332
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:27 am

Marseille, close to where I live has more then 1.5 million citizens, but no Trans atlantic flights.

Seems that the target group for transatlantic flights isn't living in this city. Flights to North Africa are extremly successful from MRS, there are many daily nonstop flights to ALG, TUN, CMN, etc. (a few of them even operated by widebodies like the 767 or the A 300).

Patrick

Edit: Correction of an airport code.

[Edited 2004-08-14 00:33:01]
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
kl911
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:34 am

Patrick,

Yep, We've got a few A300's everyday to Africa, every now and then also 747-200, DC10 and 340. It's just that I'm Dutch, Amsterdam has 700.000 citizens, Now I live here with 2x as many persons and the flights are sh*t...
Guess I'm pissed off of having no good spotting possibilities, although the airport is super!
 
SafetyDude
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:39 am

How would an US city of about a million and a half citizen correspond to this? Would they have more flights? ( AMS only has 700.000 citizens... btw )
Just like Sabena said, Marseille must not have a huge demand. Most US cities with a big population have a pretty big travel demand.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
kl911
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:51 am

'''Marseille must not have a huge demand'''

We have flights every 45 minutes to Paris on AF, Orly and CDG. And 3 times daily Easyjet to Orly and CDG. Seems like a lot of connecting pax to me... Besides the fact that the LH, BA and KL flights connect to their longhaul network as well. I just don't get it, Why NCE has DL service and MRS not.... grrrrrrrrr!
 
SafetyDude
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:55 am

There is a demand, but not that big of a demand. NCE has a wide appeal for Americans, and Delta obviously feels that there is a market for it, while for Marseille, it is better just to feed people to hubs.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
kl911
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:04 am

And still I don't agree, what do I tell my camera tomorrow?....  Laugh out loud
 
MAH4546
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:16 am

It's just that I'm Dutch, Amsterdam has 700.000 citizens, Now I live here with 2x as many persons and the flights are sh*t...

Amsterdam is a major transit hub, one of the world's largest cargo airports, and the main transportation centre for a country of 15,000,000. It's not that hard to see why it has so much service. Population is not everything.
a.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:34 am

Its all about the wealth of the people that live in the city, and if a strong airline hubs there.

Some examples:

Cali, 3 million people, very limited summer-only transatlantic charters
Medellin, 2.5 million, NO transatlantic flights.
Barranquilla, 1.2 million, NO transatlantic flights.
Brussels, 3 million, plenty of flights to choose from.


Also, ATL is not a huge city, but it sports the biggest airport in terms of traffic, thanx to DL.

(misspelled Brussels, sorry)

[Edited 2004-08-14 01:36:22]
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights.

Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:03 pm

How would an US city of about a million and a half citizen correspond to this?

Depends on plenty of other factors:

San Diego, New Orleans, San Antonio, etc all have metropolitan areas of well over a million people; yet feature no scheduled transatlantic (or hell, intercontinental at all) service.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
hz747300
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:11 pm

San Diego has BA service to London, no?

Anyhoo, traffic to Nice I am sure is leisure related. It is fun to visit the beaches there. However, I wonder if Marseilles generates enough traffic to warrant its own flight. In this day and age, it would seem if there was a need someone would fill it already.

Like no trans-Atlantic service from Hamburg or Berlin (though I hear Berlin routes are returning).
Keep on truckin'...
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights.

Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:31 pm

San Diego has BA service to London, no?

Neither SAN nor MSY retain their BA service  Crying
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
MAH4546
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:46 pm

In this day and age, it would seem if there was a need someone would fill it already.


In this day in age, less and less cities are trans-Atlantic gateways. In the United States, for example, the days of trans-Atlantic service to New Orleans, Nashville, San Diego, St. Louis, and, soon, Pittsburgh, are gone.

It was as recent as ten years ago when Lufthansa offered non-stop US service from a plethora of German gateways, not just Frankfurt and Munich. Hamburg and Dusseldorf both had non-stops Lufthansa flights to New York City and Miami, for example.

And Marseille itself is no stranger to trans-Atlantic service. In 1989 French airline UTA started service from Marseille non-stop to Newark. UTA also operated service from Newark to Bordeaux, Toulouse, Montpellier, and Nantes (some routes were paired up). They served the routes with DC-10s. Following the Air France merger in 1990, the MRS route was transfered to JFK, and Air France flew the route with A310s, but, eventually, it was dropped within two years, along with all the other ones.
a.
 
hz747300
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:52 pm

San Diego used to be a continuation on the PHX flight--I am glad PHX has its own flight, but is there any chance of that San Diego leg returning?

I guess San Diego's tourism is mostly domestic, and it is close enough to LA which has plenty of trans-Atlantic traffic, so it may not warrant its own service.
Keep on truckin'...
 
Trvlr
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 2:05 pm

There are plenty of other factors which contributed to the termination of BA's SAN-LHR service last year. I expect to see them (or another european carrier) back at SAN within the next few years, however.

Aaron G.
 
StarCruiser
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights.

Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:45 pm

I live in IND and we have a population of 1.5 million. IND is located in the center of Indiana which has a population of over 6 million. We're still waiting for some kind of nonstop service to Europe, but I doubt it will happen anytime soon except possibly on TZ (which doesn't really count). We are just too close to ORD (about an hour's flight). We can get anywhere on AA and UA (to say nothing of various European carriers) by flying first to ORD.
 
fraT
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:35 pm

"though I hear Berlin routes are returning"

Hz747300,

the only current rumor is a ATA charter but that's it. There was a approval this week for the new Airport BBI, but that will take more than 5 years. Until then there won't be any flights to the US besides the ATA charter (if it comes).
 
Beaucaire
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:57 pm

I agree with the sense of Kl911's question.
Marseille is center not only for the greater Marseille but also the airport for cities like Aix en Provence,Toulon ,the district Var and Gard. I live about 45 minutes away from Marseille and love the city. Much more to see in Marseille than in Nice ot Cannes...!!! But in France we suffer from the "Napoleon syndrom " - meaning the center of the french world remains Paris and it's stupid centralistic ideas.I used to live in Montpellier and had to fly first up to stupid CDG or ORLY airport if I wanted to continue to Madrid,Barcelona or Rome - all has to go via Paris even when it takes four hours more and cost the double.Marseille does deserve more direct air-links (like Montpellier does..) but Air France and some shrewed politicians find an interestt to waste the time and money of thousands of people. But then francs-macons and their networks work very well in France ....

[Edited 2004-08-14 14:59:13]
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
CXA330300
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:14 pm

Too many Marseille residents use NCE or Toulon, which are somewhat close, and maybe cheaper?
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
SafetyDude
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:39 pm

And still I don't agree, what do I tell my camera tomorrow?....
There is a demand for traveling passengers, but most likely not enough of a demand to launch services to a specific place. Of all of the passengers traveling, those going to North America have a huge selection of cities to choose from. It is easier and better for AF to bring the passengers through one of the Paris airports.

Marseille has a general traveling demand, but not a demand strong enough to have services to one specific place. DL has service to NCE, but only from one destination in the US. DL feeds that flight from all of its flights.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
JoFMO
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:28 pm

What about LYS? Its even bigger and more wealthy than MRS and didn't have a transcontinental nonstop.
 
unitedkatw
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:36 pm

In MKE the population is over one million, but yet there are none either. The closest thing to international is one flight to Mexico by Midwest and flights to Canada. That is because we are so close to ORD. But personally, I'd drive hours to get a flight from MSP to avoid the congestion and delays associated with ORD.
 
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solnabo
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:28 am

If U that unhappy with Marsielle, KL911, and no planespotting for you´re camera, you can always take the TGE up to CDG or Orly and snap you´reself happy  Big thumbs up

BTW, Sthlm has 1,5 mil. and ARN is almost dead....exept some 747 and 343!!

Micke
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
airtrainer
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights.

Sun Aug 15, 2004 2:56 am

Hi, as someone said there's maybe not enough demand for these flights. For example, there are a lot of people around Lille and the north of the country, and no transatlantic flights as well. A LIL-JFK direct flight was operated by AF a few years ago but that flight didn't see enough success... Of course, people in this area are much closer from CDG or BRU, but MRS is not so far from NCE which is one of the busiest airports in France after Paris.
Sad for you KL911 but at least the region is way better than the north where I'm from  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Jef
Life is short : eat dessert first !
 
dutchjet
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sun Aug 15, 2004 4:06 am

Hubs, hubs and more hubs - the simple and sometimes sad fact is that if a city is not a hub or atleast a focus city for an airline, there is not as much service as one would expect. AMS is smaller city, but a major international hub - it can also be said that AMS serves not only the city of Amsterdam, but is the airport for the entire nation of the Netherlands. Passengers 2.5 to 3 hours away from AMS, in Maastricht or Groningen, utilize AMS - they drive or take the train to the airport.

As for Marsielle, its simply much easier for AF to route pax via CDG, either by air or a TGV train connection from Marsielle to CDG. As pointed out, other airliners have tried trans-atlantic service to regional airports in France, such as UTA and AA, all with little success - I think that the problem is more yeilds than pax numbers, the airlines could keep the flights full, but at what price, and was the all important premium cabin filled up with full fare pax? DL (and initially Pan Am) have made a success out of the Nice route, but for US travellers the French coast is a far more interesting destination than Lyon or Marsielle.

Its been a while since any airline attempted transatlantic flights in and out of the French regional airports -maybe it is time for another look. CO has had a lot of success with its routes to UK regional airports (a lot has to do with the size and economics of the 752), maybe they should now take a look at France!
 
OB1783P
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights.

Sun Aug 15, 2004 4:31 am


I live in Pennsylvania. My Maman in Aix en Provence (near MRS) is turning 70, and I'm going to go surprise her on her B'day, using AZ from Newark to Milan to Marseille. Orbitz found it for me. $100 less than AF, and just a tad longer. I'll tell you all when I come back.

I've flown thousands of miles and I can tell you it's a lot safer than crossing the street!
 
BA
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sun Aug 15, 2004 4:38 am

I think there is demand for a transatlantic flight from Marseille to New York for example. They could fill up a flight, but the problem I think would be yields. Yields may not be very high because of the great connection opportunities through Paris or London or Amsterdam. They would have to undercutt those fares.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
elwood64151
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sun Aug 15, 2004 6:01 am

AMS only has 700.000 citizens... btw

True, but it covers a significant part of Holland's population overall.

Is Marseille 1.5 million plus those who live in the surrounding area, or are we talking 1.5 million total for the whole place?

If the latter, that roughly corresponds to Milwauikee or Memphis, not exactly huge international markets...

Also, ATL is not a huge city, but it sports the biggest airport in terms of traffic, thanx to DL.

True, at less than 400,000 people, Atlanta is not a huge city. But it's GMSA is quickly nearing 5 million, making it in effect larger than Houston and nearly the size of Philadelphia. In addition, the population is very wealthy, has a low cost of living, and a Delta hub...

IND is located in the center of Indiana which has a population of over 6 million

Ah, but a large number of that 6 million lives in the area near Gary/Chicago, which has significant trans-Atlantic service. IND suffers from the same situation as SAN...

but Air France and some shrewed politicians find an interestt to waste the time and money of thousands of people. But then francs-macons and their networks work very well in France ....

So why doesn't some French businessman/woman decide they're tired of flying through CDG or Orly and start their own airline with more direct international links? They could operate it like Southwest at DAL, SAT and HOU, except from various French cities... Just don't expect there to be too much in the way of intern-continental travel...

I could see travel between cities like (I'm assuming there are airports at these cities) Bordeaux, Lyon, Marseille, Nice/Monaco, Paris, Brest, Toulouse, and Strasbourg; with service from these cities to Lisbon, Madrid, Barcelona, Milan, Rome, Frankfurt, Berlin, London, Manchester, Glasgow, Dublin, Belfast, Copenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm, Vienna, Budapest, Prague, Warsaw, and Athens.

I could see these routes being operated by 737s or A32Xs (probably 73Gs or A319s), perhaps even 717s or E-195s, depending on whether the focus was on frequent short hops or less frequent longer-haul flights.

All these cities could see international service that generally bypasses CDG and Orly.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
gilesdavies
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RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:52 am

In this day in age, less and less cities are trans-Atlantic gateways. In the United States, for example, the days of trans-Atlantic service to New Orleans, Nashville, San Diego, St. Louis, and, soon, Pittsburgh, are gone.

It was as recent as ten years ago when Lufthansa offered non-stop US service from a plethora of German gateways, not just Frankfurt and Munich. Hamburg and Dusseldorf both had non-stops Lufthansa flights to New York City and Miami, for example.

And Marseille itself is no stranger to trans-Atlantic service. In 1989 French airline UTA started service from Marseille non-stop to Newark. UTA also operated service from Newark to Bordeaux, Toulouse, Montpellier, and Nantes (some routes were paired up). They served the routes with DC-10s. Following the Air France merger in 1990, the MRS route was transfered to JFK, and Air France flew the route with A310s, but, eventually, it was dropped within two years, along with all the other ones.


The UK seems to be very much an exception to fewer US and European cities having direct flightd to the US than we did 10yrs ago.

Direct flights to the US from the UK include LHR, LGW, BHX, MAN, GLA and EDI. It has been rumoured for some time now that BRS, CWL, NCL and BFS may also gain direct scheduled flights to the US. Many of these cities are far smaller than other European cities that have no drirect links to the US.

Over recent years and months many of these cities have gained extra flights to the US for example:

Birmingham
Gaining an additional daily 752 Continental service to EWR.

Manchester
Is vey much becoming an alternative US hub for Brits than LHR now with daily services to JFK, EWR, BOS, PHL, ORD, IAH, LAS, MCO, MIA and YYZ. Pakistain Airlines, American and BMI have all added services in recent months.

Glasgow
US Airways have added a daily 762 service to PHL along with the already established daily services EWR, JFK and ORD.
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: A Million Citizens, No Trans Atlantic Flights...

Sun Aug 15, 2004 9:02 am

I think there is demand for a transatlantic flight from Marseille to New York for example. They could fill up a flight, but the problem I think would be yields.
I highly doubt that a 767, for example, could be filled, but that aside, both JFK and EWR are not the best for connections to anything but decent-sized cities. Routing passengers first through CDG and then on to AF network makes more sense and I imagine is much more cheaper in the long run.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"

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