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Aeroflot777
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CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sat Aug 14, 2004 5:01 pm

When I was flying Alitalia 2 days ago, I decided to listen to my CD's in the middle of the flight, like I have been doing all my life. When all of a sudden an FA came up to me and asked me what it was. I told him it was a regular CD player run by batteries. After this he told me to put it away immediately and that I shouldn't take it out again since it was prohibited. I asked him why since I have never been in this situation before. He said you can not listen to music on the flight. This was an Airbus 321. The TV that was closest to me popped out of the ceiling and I realized the TV was broken, so I had to look further down the cabin to see the other one. But here came another problem. The FAs didn't distribute the earphones, so none of the passengers could listen to the TVs even though they were showing something. So basically the whole flight went on without ANY entertainment, not even my own personal walkman.
So my final question is, why does Alitalia prohibit walkmans on board? Is it some kind of new airline rule or something? Has anyone been in the same situation?
Thanks in advance. Aeroflot777

P.S. Is it normal for Alitalia to have an all male FA crew? Because thats what happened to me.
 
mikedlayer
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sat Aug 14, 2004 5:17 pm

Its one of those pathetic little rules that some airlines make up as a bit of a play safe method. If you had an A321 full of passengers using cd players, mobile phones, laptop cd players and radios, well yeah you might cause a little confusion to the navigational system the aircraft uses.

But the odd cd player isn't going to make ANY difference at all....we were only the other month having a discussion about ATC radio scannners the a lot of us have, and how some of us use it on board to listen in and follow the flight along the airwaves. If i were you i'd just have the cd player in your bag with an earphone discretly, thats what I did on Iberia - otherwise they would have opened the door and chucked me out!

Mike
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:32 pm

But doesn't Alitalia and Iberia see that other airlines allow them and nothing terrible happens. So why don't they just drop their weird rules?
Aeroflot777
 
Shamrock_747
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:25 pm

I was in a similar situation on an Alitalia A321 ATH-MXP flight in 2002. I got my CD walkman out and started using it and after half an hour one of the crew came up to me saying "it is forbidden". Funnily enough I had been listening to the same CD player a week before, perfectly legally, on a bmi A321. AZ's rule seems nonsensical.
 
SafetyDude
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:28 pm

My friend had the same experience on a 747. He took out his CD player while at cruise altitude, but a FA told him to put it away.

Is there any reason for AZ's "extra-precaution"?

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"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:00 pm

Quite stupid situations arise because of their weird rules.
 
burnsie28
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:40 pm

No wonder everyone seems to complain about Alitalia and Iberia, with service and rules like that, who does want to fly them.
 
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solnabo
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:15 am

AZ is going down the tube..............FAST!!!  Insane

Micke
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TripleDelta
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:55 am

I for one am inseparable from my CD walkman (it's an extension of my body  Big thumbs up ) and always carry it and listen to on flights. I've had no trouble so far (on carriers such as Adria Airways, Croatia Airlines, Air Adriatic, JAT and the like). I've seen passengers using a lot of appliances (laptops, calculators, PDAs, walkmans,...) and nobody ever said anything. The only things that were forbidden are those that...hmmm...transmit radiation for a living, such as mobiles (scanners excluded, if you just listen).
As Mikedlayer said, it's probably some sort of public statement that says "fly with us, we're safer cause we don't fly like cowboys like other companies". The reasons could be numerous, but probably some public image problems. To the layman, who doesn't know how electrical appliances like CD players and navigation instruments interact, this "it's forbidden" statement adds a note of confidence in the carrier and a sense of security - cause the "professionals" say it is safer and I don't want to get involved...
No plane, no gain.
 
Eirules
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:01 am

EI does not allow them either, which is a total pain especially since they dont offer PTVs on most of their transatlantic flights
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Aeroflot777
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:39 am

Could we see an improvement to these rules in the near future? Maybe the rules will be eliminated?
 
777236ER
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 2:14 am

But the odd cd player isn't going to make ANY difference at all....we were only the other month having a discussion about ATC radio scannners the a lot of us have, and how some of us use it on board to listen in and follow the flight along the airwaves. If i were you i'd just have the cd player in your bag with an earphone discretly, thats what I did on Iberia - otherwise they would have opened the door and chucked me out!

Wrong.

Rf interference is a real, and very serious issue.

Curtosy of aviation-safety.net, check out these incidents and causes:

NAV CDI needle swing (off course) - tape players
CDI needle swings - chess player
erroneous nav signal of VOR station - dictaphone
loss of VOR capability - cellphone
HSI's discsrepancies - cellphone
NAV compass & CDI oscillation (off course) - PEDs
off VOR course - cellphone
off course - tape player
music blocked VHF comm's - FM radio
comm's blocked - Nintendo, cellphone, notebooks
off course - tape machine+Nintendo
off course - cellphone
both VORs lost, no VOR audio signal - cellphone
all directional gyros lost - 25 radio's, 1 laptop
compass error; off course - laptop, comp.game
2 missed approaches - PED suspected
loss of all autonav functions - 3 laptops, cdplayer/radio
loc receiver anomaly; missed app. - PED suspected
compass precess 10deg - laptop
Omega NAV unreliable - tv set suspected
HSI errors - cellphone
nav compass sys error; off course - cellphone
temp loss of com freq. - cd player
INS nav errors - electronic games
off course - cellphone
eng fuel ctlr - vhf radio interference cellphone
off course - laptop
EMI interference & radio alt flag - cd-players (2)
erratic cdi indications - 2 gameboys
autopilot erratic - cellphone suspected
off course - gameboy
nav radio interference; off ILS course - computer game
EMI interference causes a split between the compass system in flight - laptop
both LOC and GS 'OFF' flags showed just prior to the Outer Marker - PED suspected
significant LOC rate of deflection - PED possible
loss of Captain EFIS display - 8 laptops
electronic compass erratic - cd player
interfering transmitter - cellphone
NAV and COM radio problems - PED suspected
off approach path - PED suspected
off course due to drifting FM - PED suspected
HSI discrepencies + PED suspected
EICAS interference, airspeed discrep. - PED
loss of COM frequency - cellphone
ILS, radio altimeter, and primary flight display went out - 20 cellphones

Scary stuff.

The rules are clear: no electronic devices are to be used during takeoff or landing. That includes radios, CD players, cameras, phones, anything. If the crew say don't use certain electronic equipment throughout the flight, don't use them. You're putting the lives of everyone on board at risk.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
smcmac32msn
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 2:23 am

Wrong.

Rf interference is a real, and very serious issue.


How come AA, UA, NW, YX, DL, AS have all let me use my CD player in flight without a problem. I take them out when they tell you that you can use these types of devices, and put them away when told to also... I don't see how this stuff happened unless people weren't following the take-off/landing rules.... It should be allowed at altitude. Will AS' DIGePLAYER interfere somehow with the navigation? Thats just a glorified portable DVD player.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
777236ER
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 2:32 am

Whether they should be allowed for use at altitude or not isn't up to you. Above are examples of serious RF interference. If airlines and regulatory authorities say you shouldn't you PEDs in cruise, you shouldn't. End of.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
aviationwiz
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 2:39 am

I can understand why you can't use cell phones, scanners, microwaves, all that crap on a plane, and I can understand why you can't use CD players and such during t/o and landing, but not being able to use them during cruise is nuts. *EVERY* airline I have ever flown on allows me to listen to my MP3 Player, I can't imagine being asked to put it away.
Proudly from the Home of the Red Tail.
 
smcmac32msn
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:07 am

How come AA, UA, NW, YX, DL, AS have all let me use my CD player in flight without a problem.

If airlines and regulatory authorities say you shouldn't you PEDs in cruise, you shouldn't. End of.

What regulatory authorities say you can't use a CD player at altitude? All those "SERIOUS" RF INTERFERENCE had nothing to do with a CD player, except a couple of TOGA' (Take Off-Go Around). Like I said, if you follow the rules of using it at altitude, you shouldn't have a problem.

My other question, how could a computer game cause "NAV RADIO INTERFERENCE"? Why do they put power-ports on certain seats designed for LAPTOPS if they cause such "SERIOUS" RF INTERFERENCE?
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
CVGpilot
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:09 am

Well it hasn't been a "real" prob for the last 70 or so years of passenger flights, I doubt it will turn into a big prob' now. I think if American carriers tried to pull a stupid stunt like that, people would gladly choose another airline even if it cost a bit more to avoid such ignorance! Alitalia and TSA must be must get there policys from the same 7ucken genius!
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777236ER
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:22 am

All those "SERIOUS" RF INTERFERENCE had nothing to do with a CD player, except a couple of TOGA' (Take Off-Go Around).

Look at all the PED interference incidents relating to CD players.

A temporary loss of comm. freq., erratic compass readings and EMI interference & radio alt flag.

Now, any of those at any stage of flight is serious. Consider how deadly they could be in busy airspace in bad weather.

My other question, how could a computer game cause "NAV RADIO INTERFERENCE"?

Every PED puts out RF. Even 'non-transmitters'.

Why do they put power-ports on certain seats designed for LAPTOPS if they cause such "SERIOUS" RF INTERFERENCE?

Laptops are another story! Laptops are a serious fire-risk. Li-ion batteries tend to heat up quite a lot when charged. Imagine leaving your laptop on charge, with a napkin underneath it, while nodding off in a business class seat. A deadly fire isn't too far away.

As for RF interference, airlines need to make money. It's a calculated risk. You can guarantee that if a plane crashes tomorrow from laptop-induced RF interference, or thanks to a fire caused by a laptop, the power ports would be removed immediatly.

Well it hasn't been a "real" prob for the last 70 or so years of passenger flights, I doubt it will turn into a big prob' now

The same sort of attitude that lead to Swissair 111, and TWA 800. RF interference is a very real and very serious issue. Apparently it only takes a crash for ignorant people such as yourself to realise that.
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smcmac32msn
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 am

My other question, how could a computer game cause "NAV RADIO INTERFERENCE"?

Every PED puts out RF. Even 'non-transmitters'.

Why do they put power-ports on certain seats designed for LAPTOPS if they cause such "SERIOUS" RF INTERFERENCE?

Laptops are another story! Laptops are a serious fire-risk. Li-ion batteries tend to heat up quite a lot when charged. Imagine leaving your laptop on charge, with a napkin underneath it, while nodding off in a business class seat. A deadly fire isn't too far away.

As for RF interference, airlines need to make money. It's a calculated risk. You can guarantee that if a plane crashes tomorrow from laptop-induced RF interference, or thanks to a fire caused by a laptop, the power ports would be removed immediatly.


LOL... SO I CAN BRING MY DESKTOP COMPUTER ON THE PLANE TO PLAY "COMPUTER GAMES" and cause interference, but then you tell me that Laptops are another story? LOL. I know all about LITHIUM-ION BATTERIES. Yes they do heat up, no more so than the hot meal they put on the doilies. Those haven't caused fires lately, have they? No plane has been put at risk by laptops yet... nor will they be. The whole last paragraph that you wrote is laughable. They need to make money, so they put them in, but as soon as something happens, they are gone??? If they wanna make money, CD players shouldn't be on AZ or IB banned lists... Cuz then the money will go other places like, say, Olympic Air, Air France, British Air, BMI, BMIbaby, etc. And pretty soon, AZ and IB planes will have a nice fresh coat of paint or be in such places as GYR and MHV.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
777236ER
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:35 am

LOL... SO I CAN BRING MY DESKTOP COMPUTER ON THE PLANE TO PLAY "COMPUTER GAMES" and cause interference, but then you tell me that Laptops are another story?

Laptops put out RF, so does your PC.

Yes they do heat up, no more so than the hot meal they put on the doilies.

And the hot meal cools down in minutes. A hot laptop battery stays hot throughout the flight.

They need to make money, so they put them in, but as soon as something happens, they are gone???

Just how many Swiss MD-11s have PTVs?

If they wanna make money, CD players shouldn't be on AZ or IB banned lists... Cuz then the money will go other places like, say, Olympic Air, Air France, British Air, BMI, BMIbaby, etc. And pretty soon, AZ and IB planes will have a nice fresh coat of paint or be in such places as GYR and MHV.

Really? How many passengers have done that? People don't switch airlines because they can't use CD players. They do because they can't use laptops.

Both are dangerous.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
smcmac32msn
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:46 am

Just how many Swiss MD-11s have PTVs?

Hmmm... how many have seen the light of day in the last 4 years? NONE! They, along with TW no longer exist!

Really? How many passengers have done that? People don't switch airlines because they can't use CD players. They do because they can't use laptops.

People switch airlines because of many factors, just not because their laptops. Some switch because of things like laptop use, CD player use, PTV's, etc. I'll ask again, do AS DigEplayers cause a threat? They are a glorified portable DVD player... why do they allow that???
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
CVGpilot
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:47 am

Easy killer im not saying your full of shit, but 10's of thousands of flight take place daily, and 10's of thousands of flights land while pax on board used a wide range of eletronics, and you named 2 that you THINK crashed due to RF interference. Yes it truly sucks that planes crash, but 2 for a Million is'ent bad. Bad things just happen man. It's like saying eating cheeros is "VARY REAL AND SERIOUS" every person that eat cereal could choke and die on an O.

111, and 800 RIP

p.s Show me where it says what happened to 800 happened cause a kid was playing his gameboy???
Globally Yours
 
777236ER
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:53 am

I'll ask again, do AS DigEplayers cause a threat? They are a glorified portable DVD player... why do they allow that???

They're onboard equipment, so they're electrically tested.

Easy killer im not saying your full of shit, but 10's of thousands of flight take place daily, and 10's of thousands of flights land while pax on board used a wide range of eletronics, and you named 2 that you THINK crashed due to RF interference. Yes it truly sucks that planes crash, but 2 for a Million is'ent bad. Bad things just happen man. It's like saying eating cheeros is "VARY REAL AND SERIOUS" every person that eat cereal could choke and die on an O.

I never said TWA800 or Swissair 111 crashed because of RF interference. Read what I write.
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CVGpilot
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 4:03 am

Its all good man, I see what your getting at, I just could not imagine being told all I could do on a flight is sit there. Im vary happy that the main carriers of the world have not done anything like that!
Globally Yours
 
FlyboyOz
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 10:03 am

BTW Aerofolt777 said:

"Is it normal for Alitalia to have an all male FA crew? Because thats what happened to me."

Yes..it's normal but very WEIRD to see all male cabin crew...lol...Qantas also have all male cabin crews in economy class as well.

[Edited 2004-08-15 03:05:06]
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Msl747
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 2:21 pm

So if laptops cause interference and pose a fire danger then why are airlines supplying power-points for them?

-Msl747 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Commercial Pilot Certificate: Single and Multi-Engine Land; Instrument Airplane
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 4:34 pm

FlyboyOz,
Thanks for answering my second question. Kinda weird from my point of view. I mean flying is a little more graceful with a female FA, at least one.
Aeroflot777
 
777236ER
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 9:31 pm

So if laptops cause interference and pose a fire danger then why are airlines supplying power-points for them?

Because there is no industry-wide consensus on RF interference.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
UN_B732
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 9:59 pm

I guess we are PEDophiles.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
AeroSvit bars CD Players, as far as I remember, but I don't think the rule is strictly enforced. I'm really surprised by those reports. Thanks.
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What now?
 
SafetyDude
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 10:19 pm

Above are examples of serious RF interference.
Just for clarification, did those incidents happen when electronic devices were not supposed to be used or when they could be used?

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
greasespot
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 11:17 pm

Everyone is missing the biggest point. You do not own the airline therefore they make the rules. IF They say every passenger has to wear a green shirt they can.

This is their rules and if you do not like fly with someone else who has different rules.

But I really wonder how many people switch airlines over something as stupid as being told CD players are not allowed. I am thinking the number is pretty small.

Greasespot
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777236ER
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 11:47 pm

Just for clarification, did those incidents happen when electronic devices were not supposed to be used or when they could be used?

It doesn't say. Presumably they interfere all the time. It becomes more serious during approach and takeoff when you're in busy airspace and relying on all your equipment functioning correctly.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Sun Aug 15, 2004 11:54 pm

If they don't like CD players, buy an MP3 player. Ironically the hard drive models (like the iPod) have a much more powerful spinning disc than CD players  Big grin


Sometimes electronic devices malfunction, or they are designed or built incorrectly, sending out lots of interference. Usually not enough to affect anything by navigational equipment, which is triple redundant anyway, with several backup methods of navigating behind it...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
mdl412
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:55 am

When I flew Aerolineas Argentina in South America back in July of 2002, I tried to listen to my Nomad Muvo MP3 player, but the F/A told me very sternly in broken english, "put that away, you're violating federal laws."

I never understood why either... considering that I've never had a problem on any US/Europe/Canada flight. Safety first, I guess.
 
Schoenorama
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RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:14 am

As Iberia has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread, I've looked up an article published in 1996 on this subject, in the Spanish magazine, "Avion Revue" (September issue, # 171).

The extensive article includes some examples recollected in Spain from 1994 to 1996. According to the mentioned magazine, these examples, which are listed below, are only 12% of all the incidents reported by crews in Spain during the indicated period.

Although the original article is in Spanish, I'll try to translate them as professionally as possible. The words for which I don't know if I used the proper translations are written in italics.

  • B-727, Madrid-Tenerife, differences between the Captain's and F/O's compass. A passenger with a working video-camera is located in the cabin. When the camera is switched off, the differences disappear


  • B-727, Madrid-Barcelona, ATC notifies the crew they have a 18 degree deviation from their course. This is confirmed by the crew when checking their back-up compass during 5 minutes. A passenger with a video-camera is located. When the camera is switched off, both compasses indicate the correct course.


  • B-727, Madrid-Barcelona, periodical oscillations occur on the VOR read-outs. A passenger with a working laptop is located. The oscillations disappear when the laptop is switched off. When the VOR frequency is changed, they also disappear.


  • B-727, Tenerife-Madrid. ATC informs the crew of an important course-deviation. In row 22, a passenger playing a video-game is located.


  • B-727, Madrid-Tenerife, when selected the same VOR frequency on both radios, a difference of 10 degrees became apparent. In seat 18F a passenger was using a video-camera.


  • A320, Barcelona-Munich, a difference of 2.5 nm is observed between the #1 INS and the remaining two. A passenger with a working video-camera is located. When switched off, the difference disappears.


  • A320, Barcelona-London, while descending, oscillations of 3 to 4 nm, both left and right, on the course occur. In seat 12F a passenger is playing a video-game. When swithing off the device, the oscillations disappear.


  • A300, Tenerife-Madrid, a deviation of 50 degrees to the right occurs on INS 1 and of 20 degrees on the INS 2, with respect to the initial course. In seat 9A, is passenger is located with a CD-Player. Once the device is turned off, the anomalities disappear.


  • B-727, Seville-Madrid, At cruise altitude, while approaching the Villatobas NDB, the ADF indicators started spinning clockwise on both HSI. On row 19, a kid was playing a video-game. The problems disappeared as soon as the device was turned off.


  • B-727, Seville-Madrid, differences occured on the compasses of 20 to 30 degrees. In seat 10D, a passenger was using a laptop. After switching off the laptop, the differences disappear.


  • MD-87, Barcelona-Stockholm, a complete failure occurs of all VHF communication equipment on all selected frequencies, both in reception as in transmision. In seat 4F a passenger is operating a laptop. After switching it off, the problems disappear.


  • B-727, Málaga-Barcelona, at FL280 a strong yaw is noticed followed by another one even stronger. A passenger with a laptop is located and both yaws occured when the laptop was switched on and off again.


  • B-747, Madrid-Rio de Janeiro, during take-off and climb, a difference occurs of 180 degrees between ADF 2 and ADF 1. When a laptop in use by a passenger is switched off, the difference disappears.


  • B-727, Barcelona-Santiago de Compostela, the radio-altimeter shows a flashing flag while flying at FL270. It only disappears when a handheld radio in use by a passenger is switched off.


  • B-727, Barcelona-Dublin, while turning to heading 340, 5nm from the Barcelona VOR, a deviation in the compasses occur. In seat 22F, a passenger with a working CD-Player is located.


  • DC-10, Montreal-Madrid, while still climbing, after passing FL100, extremely strong winds are indicated on INS 2 with the subsequent course error when trying to adjust the drift. In seat 35A a passenger with a working CD-Player is located. After switching off the player, everything returns to normality.


  • B-727, Tenerife-Seville, a deviation of 45 degrees to the right on both RMI's is observed which do not affect the HSI. In seat 7D a passenger with a working video-camera is located.


  • B-757, London-Málaga, 3 minutes after take-off while passing through 6,000 feet, flags and caution lights begin to appear, all navegation data is lost, the centre auto-pilot disconnects while the other 2 can't be connected. In seat 9D, a passenger was using a laptop.




  • Although a bit old, I hope these examples can still be informative regarding this particular subject.
    Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
     
    OV735
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    RE: CD Walkmans + Alitalia = Don't Match?

    Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:04 am

    Agreed with Greasespot. Unless own the airline, you have to comply with the rules, or fly another airline.

    Besides, I really hate it when my life is put at risk because somebody can't get along without a CD-player, a gameboy or a cigarette for a number of hours.