UtilianPilot07
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AA And The 7E7

Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:16 am

Hello,
I was looking at American Virtual Airlines which is a Virtual Airline that resembles American Airlines. I noticed it said Coming Soon in 2008 Boeing 7E7.
I know they might just be adding it for non realistic reasons but is American Airlines having any ideas of ordering any 7E7?

Thanks
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Starlionblue
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:21 am

SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!

Seriously though, I imagine AA would be a prime candidate, but they don't have the money I guess.

[Edited 2004-08-16 00:40:48]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:30 am

In time the 7E7 will be the dream machine for American Airlines, no pun intended. AA can potentially reduce three fleets and and five subtypes to a single fleet with two subtypes. The 7E7-3/8 will be right at home with AA once they have the funds.

Clarifying my earlier statement, I'm thinking AA would do something like-

some A3006 replaced with 7E7-3
some 762 replaced with 7E7-3
some 752 replaced with 7E7-3

most 762ER replaced with 7E7-8
most 763ER replaced with 7E7-8
most A3006 replaced with 7E7-8

[Edited 2004-08-16 00:35:43]
 
SafetyDude
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:32 am

I was looking at American Virtual Airlines which is a Virtual Airline that resembles American Airlines. I noticed it said Coming Soon in 2008 Boeing 7E7.
Keywords: virtural airline. A virtual airline can do anything.

AA and CO are both very interested in the 7E7, but do not have the money.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
NWAFA
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:35 am

I have been in two meetings now with the company (NWA) and in both of these, two different people have said that NWA is currently and actively looking at the 7E7. That Boeing had approached NWA to be the US launch carrier....NWA is looking to fly more frequent ASIA flights and to over fly NRT.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:48 am

Boeing had approached NWA to be the US launch carrier....NWA is looking to fly more frequent ASIA flights and to over fly NRT.

A case has been made for opperating the 777 and A330 side-by-side, because even though they are sized closely, they are tailored for different missions. This might be true with the 7E7 and A330, especially with the -3 variant. It will be interesting to see...

As for NW opperating the 7E7-8... I'd like to know how this fits their timetable for Asian expansion. The earliest NW could get 7E7s, not to mention if they even want them, would be 2009-2010.
 
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Crosswind
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:53 am

In a typical 2-class configuration the 7E7-3 will seat around 90 passengers more than the 757-200 (289 v 200) Even allowing for improved financial performance in the future, for most airlines the 7E7 will not be a suitable 757 replacement, AA included. Unless there is massive and sustained growth over the next few years, it wouldn't make sense to replace a fleet of 757s with 767/A300-sized aircraft, no matter how economical the aircraft is!

It pains me to say it, but most airlines that look to replace the 757, in the absence of a direct substitute, will look to the 737/A320 or future variants thereof. Afterall, it is those 2 types which eroded the 757 market, not larger aircraft.

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
Trvlr
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:08 am

Dfwrevolution: Whatever plan NW has for Asian expansion, it is undeniable that the 7E7 presents a innovative opportunity for the carrier, even several years down the road. In my opinion, NW would use the aircraft to not only expand service from its NRT hub to smaller American cities (a trend already started with the recent addition of PDX-NRT) as well as nonstop service from other Asian cities to NW's principal hubs (HKG-DTW, NGO-MSP, PVG-DTW, to name but a few possibilities). Even "point-to-point" routes such as NGO-LAX are possible--such is the versatility and beauty of the 7E7.

Needless to say, NW is probably still counting on the 747 and A330 to meet their transpacific requirements for the next decade or so. But I think there remain many opportunities for carriers such as NW, UA, KE, and NH to utilize an aircraft such as the 7E7 on new and existing routes in this market.

Aaron G.
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:02 am

American is by no means in a position to afford a new & different type in its fleet right now. Currently the F-100s are going, and next, in 2008, the A300s will be going home to France. AA's board of directors has stated they want to stick with 5 basic types for the near-term future...the MD-80s, 738s, 752s, 763s & 772s. Keep in mind that all future 738s & 772s deliveries have been deferred until 2006. If, and a pretty big "if", the 7E7 may be considered in 2008 when the Airbus fleet is being phased out. Right now AA is content to stay afloat & eases its debt load by cutting costs wherever necessary. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
gigneil
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:32 am

I would expect zero A300-600Rs to be replaced by the 7E7-8, when AA does get around to it.

They are most evenly matched with the 7E7-3.

N
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:12 pm

American is by no means in a position to afford a new & different type in its fleet right now. Currently the F-100s are going, and next, in 2008, the A300s will be going home to France.

As AA stated publicly this past week, the A300s are not being retired. I seriously wish people would just stop it with this "A300s being retired" garbage, because, for now, they aren't.

As for the 7E7 and AA: it is not a question of if, but when. And AA, unlike other airlines, actually does have the money to buy them, they have billions in cash reserves ($4 billion, I believe), which is one major reason they are in much better shape than other majors. They just aren't in the position to purchase new aircraft at this time. Things are really turning around for them. I wouldn't be surprise to see them in a position to buy new aircraft within 18 months.
a.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:18 pm

As AA stated publicly this past week, the A300s are not being retired. I seriously wish people would just stop it with this "A300s being retired" garbage, because, for now, they aren't.

Good lord no one said anything like that. But if you think AA won't jump at the chance to consolidate their 767s and A300s you're kidding yourself. Everyone has already stated that the 7E7 will be the perfect fit in due time.

I would expect zero A300-600Rs to be replaced by the 7E7-8, when AA does get around to it. They are most evenly matched with the 7E7-3.

I keep making that mistake. My bad

In a typical 2-class configuration the 7E7-3 will seat around 90 passengers more than the 757-200 (289 v 200) Even allowing for improved financial performance in the future, for most airlines the 7E7 will not be a suitable 757 replacement, AA included

It obviously remains to be seen, but plenty of wide bodies that are not even designed for domestic operations have been used for such. The 7E7-3 might be the paradigm shift in North America to the way European and Asian fleets have been for years.
 
tekelberry
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:13 pm

As AA stated publicly this past week, the A300s are not being retired. I seriously wish people would just stop it with this "A300s being retired" garbage, because, for now, they aren't.

They also stated that the A300 will be the next to be retired from their fleet.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:50 pm

I do think that AA will be in line to get the 7E7-8 and a lower MTOW 7E7-9 later this decade. The hard-worked A300B4-600R fleet will probably be phased out starting in 2008, and AA has already parked much of its 767-200 fleet.
 
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American 767
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:51 am

This was discussed in another topic that the A300's will start leaving the fleet in 2008 and the last one should be retired early next decade. But yes you're right, American is interested in the 7E7 to replace the A300's and the older 767-200's but they are for the moment not in a good situation to order new aircraft.
Yes, the A300's and 767-200's next to go once the Fokkers are gone end of this year. The types remaining will be MD-80, 757, 767 (300ER only), 777 and 737-800 (and maybe 700's to be added in the long run to replace the Super 80's), however I think that the 7E7 could in the long run, replace the A300 as discussed, and both the 757 and 767. I have the impression that, not in the near future, but in the far distant future (2020's I would say) the fleet will consist of only these three types:
7E7 of different variants
777 (will start showing their age in the mid 2020's)
737-700/800 (will start showing their age in the mid 2020's)
Any maybe by then, Boeing will be working on a new narrowbody version of the 7E7 to replace the 737. This new narrowbody and the 7E7 could be siblings like today the 757 and 767 are siblings.

Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium
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newkai
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:07 am

"As AA stated publicly this past week, the A300s are not being retired. I seriously wish people would just stop it with this "A300s being retired" garbage, because, for now, they aren't."

But what about 2008? That's another four years down the road.
 
aa777jr
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Aa 7e7

Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:17 am

AA has more than 4 billion in the bank, last income statement I checked, that more than 2 times their next competitor. Do the math, and it makes sense for them to get rid of the Airbus and go with the 7E7.

A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
highliner2
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:54 am

It will be interesting to see the 7e7 in AA colors. Because the fuselage is made of composites, they will not be able to have the polished aluminum look. And that silver/gray scheme the had on the A300s when they first came out was horrible. I hope they don't decide to do that to the 7e7 when it hits the skies with AA.
Go Cubs!
 
gigneil
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:35 am

AA has more than 4 billion in the bank, last income statement I checked, that more than 2 times their next competitor. Do the math, and it makes sense for them to get rid of the Airbus and go with the 7E7.


What math? AA is still burning through their cash, and they also have a massive debt load in the $23 billion dollar range.

Getting rid of an airframe that's doing superbly for the company doesn't make sense with any math I can do.

N
 
dutchjet
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:58 am

I agree that at some point AA will order the 7e7 to replace the 762/763/A300 fleet, but this would be a huge order and AA is simply not in the financial position to even consider ordering aircraft at the moment. While $4 billion in cash is a huge amount of money, AA will not commit to billions of dollars in aircraft orders unless and until the airline operation shows a significant profit and does so consistently for a few quarters. The busy summer travel season is coming to an end, and it remains to be seen whether AA, or the other US legacy carriers made any money during this high demand travel period and can add to their reserves. With the slow winter months coming up, fuel prices stuck at historically high levels, and lots of signs that we will see quite a few fare wars this winter (especially on routes where AA competes with LCCs), AA could quickly burn through its signficant reserves. Thus, while $4 billion sounds impressive (and it is), it is amazing how fast is can disappear - thus AA will wait and see with respect to the 7e7.
 
AAR90
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:35 am

What math? AA is still burning through their cash, and they also have a massive debt load in the $23 billion dollar range.

AA is not "burning through their cash." AA has been making an operating profit for most of this year and adding to its cash reserves while paying all its bills and fully funding its retirement plans. OTOH, the massive debt load is truly "massive" and management is slowly trying to work that down as well. $4 billion is not a whole lot of cash considering the size of AA's operations (costs) and its large debt balance.

...but this would be a huge order and AA is simply not in the financial position to even consider ordering aircraft at the moment.

Key phrase repeated here, but often ignored, is "at the moment." At the moment AA is not in a position to make a large capital committment. In the future AA may be in a position to make a large capital committment. The good news (hidden in all the hype) is that AA management is actually looking at and actively studying such future investment(s). If management now has the time/resources to spend looking at AA's long-term future, AA's short-term prospects are not as bleak as some pundits claim.  Big thumbs up


*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
motech722
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Tue Aug 17, 2004 6:59 am

I always love these forums because "everyone" knows what any airline is going to do. Let's wait to see what is going to happen when American or Northwest announces it in writing. Until then, speculation is fine, but please, don't continue to badger your neighbor with the idea that your speculation is right and their's is wrong.

At some point, I would speculate that all airlines will take a look at the 7e7, just as all airlines have taken a look at other projects. However, to say that American will buy the 7e7 to replace the A300s to me does not seem likely as the A300-605Rs are able to carry more freight with the special wings that they have. The B777 cannot replace these aircraft and carry the same amount of frieght, and not even the A330. The A300Rs serve a special niche for American.

At some point, yes, all aircraft get retired, but let me ask this, if American is trying to decrease the number of aircraft types being operated, how will it help to replace the A300 with the 7e7? Swapping one type with another doesn't help. Maybe a swap of B767s and A300s would work, but still, you're then only downsizing by one fleet, as the 7e7 is a new type.

I would speculate that the 7e7 will not be seen in AA's fleet for quite some time, even a few decades.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:11 am

I would speculate that the 7e7 will not be seen in AA's fleet for quite some time, even a few decades.

While I agree the A300s serve a perfect purpose and are going to be at AA for a while, to say that it will be a "few decades" before the 7E7 is in AA's fleet is ridiculous. I have no doubt they will be flying with AA by 2010, assuming they suddenly don't run into major financial problems.

While AA is not in the best shape right now, they are on track to be in very good shape in 2-3 years time, and are probably the healthiest of the majors.
a.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:32 am

I have no doubt they will be flying with AA by 2010, assuming they suddenly don't run into major financial problems.

If AA wants the 7E7 by 2010, financial issues won't be the biggest problem, securing delivery slots could be a huge hurdle. Boeing claims they already have 2008 slots 100% sold, and 2009 slots filling quickly. If the SQ order goes through, I'd wager 2009 would be full as well.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:44 am

If the SQ order goes through, I'd wager 2009 would be full as well.

That's assuming they get the whole bunch delivered at one time. I really don't think delivery slots will be an issue. When you are dealing with a potential multi-billion dollar order, Boeing will find a way to accomadate the need of AA or anybody else.
a.
 
brons2
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RE: AA And The 7E7

Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:09 am

At some point, I would speculate that all airlines will take a look at the 7e7, just as all airlines have taken a look at other projects. However, to say that American will buy the 7e7 to replace the A300s to me does not seem likely as the A300-605Rs are able to carry more freight with the special wings that they have. The B777 cannot replace these aircraft and carry the same amount of frieght, and not even the A330. The A300Rs serve a special niche for American.

The 772ER can lift less cargo than an A306? Uh, yeah, whatever you say. I will grant you that using a 772 on these short routes would be misuse of the plane, but they can lift more cargo than an A306.

The 7E7 is being built to carry more, not less, cargo as well.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.

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