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Aeroflot777
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Emirate's Future A340-600s

Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:13 pm

Obviously I missed this news. When did they order 8 A340-600s??? I thought the A345 was bought instead. But now when I looked on A340.net, I saw that Emirates has 8 on order. So when did this happen?
Aeroflot777
 
bill142
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:27 pm

probably at the same time the order for the A345's and the A388's was placed. Not to sure exactly. What I can tell you is that they are HGW's which as far as I know Airbus is still working on it.
 
CRJ900
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:33 pm

News releases that I have seen said that Emirates ordered 18 A340-600HGW's, all firm orders.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
bill142
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:12 pm

Yes according to Airbus orders and delivers there are 18 of them on order.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:27 pm

They indeed have orders for 18 A340-600s. The deal was announced at the paris airshow last year. On top of that they are leasing two additional planes from ILFC, for a fleet of 20.
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:00 am

Whats a A346HGW?
Aeroflot777
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:03 am

Whats a A346HGW?

Because the 777-300ER performed so well, the current A346 is at a disadvantage in terms of payload and range. The A346 also suffers from a heavier than expected OEW, which compounds this issue. The A346HGW uses lighter structures in some places and is ceritified to carry a greater payload and fuel, which Airbus hopes will even it with the 773ER or possibly leap-frog it.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:21 am

Whats a A346HGW

To add to what was just posted... it stands for Higher Gross Weight (or Hadda Good Whizzgigging, whichever you choose to believe)  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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solnabo
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:28 am

Cheap thrills inhere I notice  Innocent

Qatar is about to get the 1st A346HGW early next year....

It gonna look awesome in the sky Big grin

Micke
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leelaw
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:28 am

Perhaps someone can explain why EK needs both the A346 and 773ER in their fleet? What's the logic of having two types of similar capability designed to do the same missions?
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
gigneil
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:33 am

The A340-600HGW was announced before the 777-300ER's improved performance. Airbus was always planning on extending the range of this frame.


Perhaps someone can explain why EK needs both the A346 and 773ER in their fleet? What's the logic of having two types of similar capability designed to do the same missions?


They need more planes than either manufacturer can deliver alone on the timeframe required.

N
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:38 am

It gonna look awesome in the sky

Actually, gonna look exactly the same as all the A346s before it...

...somewhat shy of aesthetic  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
leelaw
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:47 am

I'm not so sure about Airbus delivering the A346, but Boeing couldn't deliver as many 773ER's as EK needed? The ramp at Everett is kinda like a ghost-town these days, capacity wouldn't seem to be an issue?
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:48 am

Capacity wasnt the factor, TIME was.

Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
leelaw
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:59 am

If capacity isn't an issue then why couldn't timely delivery be achieved?
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
scottysair
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:01 am

Complete with the factor on EK of new A346. It still need to more aircraft into the fleet with EK. Will even need to get more new routes out of DXB or AKL? It will make for longer range to JFK on their new A346.
 
McGoose
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:22 am

When are Emirates getting them delivered? Will they have a similar cabin configuration as the A345?
 
SafetyDude
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:26 am

When are Emirates getting them delivered?
This news source (http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRNews1/FRNews03/FR030622.htm) says in June 2007, but that seems a bit far off. Any updates?

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
gigneil
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:55 am

2007 is correct.

N
 
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solnabo
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:05 am

Oooppss...

Qatar 1st A346HGW flight is june 2006, not early 2005 as I wrote..

Micke/SE  Big thumbs up
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Scorpio
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:12 am

Speaking of the A340-600HGW, this week's Flight International mentions that some of the planes in the recent Virgin Atlantic order will be taken as the HGW version. Virgin says the first batch of around five aircraft will be the standard -600, while the others will be -600HGWs.
 
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Richard28
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:24 am

Does anyone know if existing "standard" A340-600's will be able to be converted to HGW versions for complete fleet commonality?
 
leelaw
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:31 am

Since increased performance is achieved primarily through lighter internal structures it would not seem feasible/cost effective to convert the earlier version to the higher standard.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:48 am

If capacity isn't an issue then why couldn't timely delivery be achieved?

Because the capacity Emirates wanted within the timeframe (from order) that they wanted them could not be realistically achieved from the 777 family-only when taking the entire market into consideration.

I.e., why ramp a multiple 777 lines for the express purpose of filling a factory-order for EK, only to have the line run dry in a matter of months due to overproduction relative to market/backorder demand?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
gigneil
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:05 am

Since increased performance is achieved primarily through lighter internal structures it would not seem feasible/cost effective to convert the earlier version to the higher standard.

This isn't quite accurate. The HGW will feature lighter structures, but the most gain will of course come from uprated engines.

The 346 has a fair amount of tankage that can't be used with the current structural certification.

N
 
leelaw
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 6:10 am

"...why ramp a multiple 777 lines for the express purpose of filling a factory-order for EK, only to have the line run dry in a matter of months due to overproduction relative to market/backorder demand?"

To make a $3-3.5 Billion sale ConcordeBoy, it's relatively easy to adjust production tempo up or down for an in-production aircraft, but you can never recover a lost sale.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 6:46 am

To make a $3-3.5 Billion sale

As opposed to the cost of adding an additional line to a family assembly that was already in the plannings for relocation to a different/smaller facility...

...yeah, makes sense  Insane
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
bill142
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 6:50 am

but you can never recover a lost sale.

*cough*SQ A343*cough*

(not sure on the truth behind that tho)
 
leelaw
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 8:31 am

"As opposed to the cost of adding an additional line to a family assembly that was already in the plannings for relocation to a different/smaller facility..."

All Boeing widebodies are assembled at Everett. All 772s, 772ERs, 773s & 773ERs have been assembled interchangeably on the same production line, although the rate or tempo and model mix of assembly has varied considerably during the 777's production history. With a current 777 order backlog of 150+ and hopes to sell more in the future, this is the first time I've heard that Boeing is considering relocating final assembly elsewhere. Sounds like an apocryphal yarn to me.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:42 pm

Virgin says the first batch of around five aircraft will be the standard -600, while the others will be -600HGWs.

With the A340-600HGW apparently having a better performance, why has VS chosen to get the normal A346 for the first 5 frames?

Frederic
 
eg777er
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:08 am

Well, it may have better performance, but does this equate to improved economics over standard length legs? Virgin operate their A346s on routes such as LHR-HKG, LHR-EWR which are of ideal length for the existing airframe. Why add a longer range aircraft when the current will do?

I see Emirates using these in order to grow capacity on DXB-JFK. Also, I think Cathay could be a customer for their HKG-JFK runs....I understand that with the current A346 these services are heavily weight restricted.
 
KL808
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:26 am

HGW doesnt just mean extra range, it could also equate to extra payload.

VS might not need the range, but they can use the extra payload. Therefore ordering the HGW, makes sense.

drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
SafetyDude
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:49 am

Virgin operate their A346s on routes such as [...] LHR-EWR
Really?  Wink/being sarcastic NYC gets every type of VS aircraft, even the 742s when they were still around.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
The Coachman
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:55 am

You can bet on EK flying the new birds to SYD when they get them. The first city to get the A340-500 has a really high demand for seats on the daily flight from SYD. With only 258 seats on the A340-500 every day, flights are booked heavily. It's the cheapest and most convenient way to NBO, EBB, DAR and the best way to Europe (FF points excepted), one of the best ways to get to central Europe with only 1 stop. We need the extra capacity out here, desperately, here's hoping the 2nd daily flight will come into being.
M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:19 pm

"it's relatively easy to adjust production tempo up or down for an in-production aircraft"

No, it's not. To ramp-up production, one needs to inform suppliers, have the necessary manpower, have the production space available, etc. Boeing learned it's lesson a few years ago when they tried to do this with the 737, and failed miserably. In short, its not nearly as easy as you suggest. If customer X walks into your door and says, "I'd like to buy 50 of your aircraft, but I need them all tomorrow" your only response is going to be: "I'll sell you 50 aircraft, but you ain't getting them tomorrow." It's either that, or tell all your existing customers (who've already paid you money), "Sorry, but these guys are in a hurry, so I'm going to make you wait for your order(s)."


"but you can never recover a lost sale."

No, you can't. But there are some sales you were never going to be able to get, anyway. Also, we must remember that at the time that EK made their decision to split the order, the -300ER had not finished flight testing, and the true potential of the aircraft was not completely known. At that time, the 777 and Airbus' proposal for the A340 were virtually identical. Why not try them both out?

Finally, just as an FYI - EK has now committed to 20 A340-600HGWs, and 30 777-300ERs.


"this is the first time I've heard that Boeing is considering relocating final assembly elsewhere"

They're not. Actually, that's not completely true - 777 FA was just relocated one building down (the Everett plant is all one building, technically, but Boeing labels each bay a seperate building). This was to make way for 7E7 assembly.

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
leelaw
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:37 pm

Hamlet69:

The key word I used was relatively. All this chatter started when I asked why EK needed two aircraft, 773ER and A346 (30 and 20 a/c ordered respectively), with the same capabilities, designed to do the same missions in their fleet. Others replied the reason was that neither manufacturer could deliver the necessary quantity of aircraft in the timeframe required. However, there wasn't a near-term compressed delivery window involved with EK's order requirement based on earlier posters' claims that the A346s aren't due until 2007. IMO, given the facts presented, it doesn't add up that Boeing, at least, couldn't have timely delivered the 50 aircraft required as the production capacity and necessary lead times wouldn't seem to have been a problem. Therefore, doesn't my original queery remains unanswered?

Cheers

[Edited 2004-08-18 12:10:14]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
Scorpio
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:34 pm

Sabena 690,

With the A340-600HGW apparently having a better performance, why has VS chosen to get the normal A346 for the first 5 frames?

Probably because the -HGW will not yet be available at the time of the first few deliveries.
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:05 am

Leelaw,

I see. I understand your question perfectly, and now I see where the confusion started.

". . .with the same capabilities, designed to do the same missions in their fleet."

This is the point of confusion. As I alluded to in my earlier post, the 777-300ER has become a more capable aircraft in the time since EK announced their order split. At the time of EK's decision, shortly before Paris '03, the A340-600 could fly farther than the 777-300ER, while the Boeing twin could carry a higher payload. Therefore, EK ordered both aircraft to fly different missions. Since that time, further flight testing and some small engineering refinements (as well as better-than-expected fuel burn from the GE90s) has increased the range of the 777 beyond the A340. Thus, looking back at it, it seems the decision was illogical on EK's part. However, at the time, it was not.

"Others replied the reason was that neither manufacturer could deliver the necessary quantity of aircraft in the timeframe required."

This was where the error was made. This was, in fact, not the primary reason EK split the order. As I said earlier, the A340-600HGW promised more range than the 777 at the time. EK felt they needed the extra range, and therefore chose to wait for the aircraft (remember, they could have ordered basic -600s and gotten them sooner, but they chose to wait until 2007 to get the HGW). Now that the -300ER is a more capable aircraft, it will be interesting to see what EK does. . .

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
gigneil
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:19 am

I think it might be a bit premature to speculate if the -300ER is more capable than the -600HGW, unless you have numbers that I don't.

N
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Emirate's Future A340-600s

Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:37 am

Gigneil,

Unfortunately, Airbus has not confirmed the exact performance specs of the -600HGW as of yet. However, I can give you what I have:

MTOW will get a 24,200lb. boost to 828,900.
MZFW will get a corresponding boost to 542,335lbs. from 529,200.
OEW will increase slightly, though I have not heard by how much.

That is the weight side. On the performance side, I have not heard any definite numbers. However, the goal is to increase range by @ 400-500 s.m., which would put it on par with the 777-300ER (which currently maintains a 430 s.m. advantage). Max. payload is expected to increase, though by how much remains a mystery. I've heard anywhere from 0 to 10,000lbs. That would still leave it roughly 6,000lbs. short of the -300ER's max. payload.

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.

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