kl911
Posts: 3979
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:03 am


Sorry for the negative sound of this thread, but I think the risk is serious.

One more 11/09 or 9/11 ( whatever you want) and a few airlines can really say goodbye forever. For me for example, AZ, UA and US are on the list. Ofcourse I hope it will never happen, but there are a few airlines at the edge..

opinion?

KL911
 
freshlove1
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:08 am

If that were ever to happen again no airline would be safe, you could probably pick a name out of a hat and that airline woud be either out of business or very close to it if it did happen again. Lots of people would be out of jobs. Just don;t want to think about a outcome like that.
 
kl911
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:40 am

I know, but there are a few that are really on the edge. Even a minor attack might get them over it.. Passengers are really sensitive these days.. Unfortunately.

KL911
 
artsyman
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:36 am

One more aviation attack happens(within the US) and they are all gone.

J
 
warren747sp
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:50 am

Maybe they will all be given another life while the government provides more grants and loans.
747SP
 
nealcg
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:04 am

Ditto Warren747sp,

Another 9/11, and if it involves aviation you will see the FEDs bust out the $$,$$$,$$$,$$$.00 (thats tens of Billions)

The govt isnt going to let commercial avation collapse.


pretty simple




___________________
AGGIES WIN !!
REMEMBER...NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO...THERE YOU ARE !!
 
transPac
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:13 am

I tend to agree with Warren. If things get bad enough to where it looks like the infrastructure is starting to crumble, the government will intervene to keep things going. Contrary to popular belief around here, supply and demand does not work all the time and in all situations. However, I don't think another air attack on the scale of 9/11 is going to happen. It's possible but it doesn't seem likely. US Intelligence has been indicating that if another major attack happens, it will be through other means. Hopefully, this intel is more reliable than the stuff that sent us to Iraq.
 
kl911
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:18 am

'''However, I don't think another air attack on the scale of 9/11 is going to happen. It's possible but it doesn't seem likely. US Intelligence has been indicating that if another major attack happens, it will be through other means.''

Wasn't US intelligence wrong at 9/11 as well? ( They didn't know anything about the attack! ) Never say Never! I have the feeling that US intelligence is not as good as they want us to believe. Ofcourse, after 9/11 a lot has changed, but so did the terrorists...


KL911
 
Womack17
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:54 am

I'm find this topic to be very insensitive. To any family members of friends who died in the 9/11 attack I would like to apologize for this tactless post.
Oh how I miss Midway Airlines. A class act right to then end.
 
Womack17
Posts: 442
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:55 am

Grammar correction - "I find" not "I'm find" Sorry for the error
Oh how I miss Midway Airlines. A class act right to then end.
 
AEROFAN
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:29 am

Most of the carriers that would be flying the A380 at the time
 
Ken777
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:39 am

There is an assumption that such an attack would be in the US. Bali and Madrid shows that no place is really safe and that the US is not the only country on "the list".

There are, sadly, too many things besides a 9/11 situation that could have the same impact on airlines, or other industries.

As for posts on boards, I think that a post does not hurt those directly impacted by 9/11 if we continue to remember them - not only by respecting them in the post, but on a continual basis in our thoughts.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:43 am

I can try to help WOMACK17.
If the airlines suffer any kind of prolonged interruption of cash flow, like three of four days, some airlines will not survive, cash influx from the government or no cash influx.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:04 am

if another 9/11 occured:

For sure:

-US
-AZ
-LB
-RG
-UA
-LX (if the attack was in europe)

Mostly would:

-KL (as a separate airline)
-DL
-AC
-N6

Maybe:

-AV
-JL
-AA (if an aircraft was involved)
-CO (if an aircraft was invcolved)
-NW

(edit: forgot LX)


[Edited 2004-08-18 04:05:39]
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:23 am

While I can not rule out another use of aircraft being used by terrorist group, my feeling however is that they would probably go for a softer target, most likely using a car/truck bomb where there is a large concentration of people say at a sporting event. How such an attack would effect the aviation sector is unknown but any massive strike whether it involves civil aviation or not will have some negative impact on the airline industry.

Let's just pray very hard that nothing like this ever happens.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
NWAFA
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:25 am

Womack17

As someone who did, THANK YOU...I am only responding in this section to YOU for your words!

NWAFA
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
ua777222
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:10 pm

Though not personally close my family lost a dear family member (Dad's cousin who is a f/a for UA but wasn't working at the time) in the attack this is a good question concerning the matter of the worlds current aviation industry.

I think a lot of the listed airlines are already crippled by 9/11 and are slowly making their decent into non-existence. US, UA, AZ, DL are all current victims of the world's (Esp. the United States) crappy economy. The gov. won't step in b/c there are still other airlines that can invest and thrive off of these failures.

The US will slowly come out into the light of day and start spending more money allowing for current and new airlines to succeed. In the very unlikely and very sad event that another 9/11 type attack happens you can see the people backing into their shells again.

At that point you will see the gov. step in. The point is that there is still success to be made out of all of this and that's why I think the gov. is holding back. It will be sad to see those who could be great airlines leave due to this but that's part of what it will take to grow and reconstruct and stable and well maintained aviation industry.

Just my 2¢

UA777222

Also see;
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1697785/6/
For my personal opinion on the reasoningng for the down fall in the airline industry and the why airlines such as UA and US are failing in the current markes that they serve. Comments quite welcome seeing how I am less experienceded than you guys and might be missing a few key points....

Thanks again.
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
AFROTC
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:43 pm

To be honest, not trying to start a flame, but I don't quite understand how this post can be tactless, just because the guy is from the Netherlands and is honestly curious about a harsh subject doesn't exactly make it tactless. It is my firm belief that the more we question and learn, the less their deaths will be in vein.

my 2 cents.
We've Been Looking For You, United States Airforce, Cross Into The Blue!
 
burnsie28
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:51 pm

I dont think it would happen again like that of 9/11, do they really think that pax are going to sit around, and now that they would have a hard time slipping anything by security (Even though the TSA Sucks), Pax will kick their A**. I know i would do what I could, no terrorist is taking over my plane that I am on, if any terrorist happen to be here, MARK MY WORDS!
 
ua777222
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:14 pm

Burnsie28,

How about you watch your words....

With the new threat of home made bombs being built while in the air out of things that any ordinary traveler I'd be scared. You're comments of "...though the TSA Sucks" should be rethought. The TSA might "suck" in your eyes but they are the only thing standing in the terrorist way. With this in mind how many planes do you see crashing into buildings or blowing up mid-air.

I'm positive that a few members are either associated with the TSA or know someone who is and would find these comments very disrespectful. You should really back down and stop being the big "I'm going to kick all of their asses if they even try to pee in the wrong direction" and realize that 9/11 happened b/c they hit all the weak spots in aviation.

To date we still have spots that we can't control such as brining a camera on the a/c, bringing a bag of food onto the a/c, this freedom will be used against us just like everyother thing that was in place before 9/11.

If we all followed your viewpoint we would not have food after security, no bathrooms, no phones, no walls that you can't see through, everything either made out of paper or plastic. And you'd probably be at the front of the line to complain about how this is unfair and should be put back in place b/c it's your freedom, just like it's supposedly your freedom to protect America's skis. It's coming out of your tax money any ways so why don't you save youself the worry and let the guys you're paying for deal with it. The world and all your freedoms that you think you have are no longer as free as they used to.

Back down and next time please watch your words.

Thanks again.

UA777222
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
apollo13
Posts: 559
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:42 pm

If it happens again, I will personally go over there and bust those mother F***ers until they all are on their knees praying for the US to put them in Guantanamo Prison before i get to them!!!!!!!!!!!
 
UALFAson
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:59 pm

As someone who lived a mile from the Pentagon on 9/11 and has a mom who is an F/A for UA that was stuck in California for a week afterwards, I feel like I lived through the experience first-hand and choose to participate in what I think is not an offense thread.

Honestly, if there is another major terrorist attack in the US in the near future, whether by plane, truck bomb, or some other means, I think this country is going to go to heck in a handbasket. Airlines will be the least of our concerns--the entire encomony will go down the crapper. The public will be split between wanting to bomb the entire Middle East back to kingdom come and those who believe we brought this upon ourselves and should throw ourselves at the mercy of the UN and withdraw all our troops immediately.

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), Americans are just not used to dealing with terrorist activity on our soil. IMHO, this is a much bigger issue than which airlines will fail, but I agree with Freshlove1 who said pick a name out of a hat, and that includes many LCCs. It'll be the WN "trailer trash" who will be the first to decide no more plane trips to grandma's, not the business execs and salespeople who have to fly for business like it or not.
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
aa757first
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:24 pm

You're comments of "...though the TSA Sucks" should be rethought.

UA777222,

I don't know where you live. I'm sure some TSA personnel are great. The ones I have seen look like they belong in McDonalds.

In Boston, I bought a case of root beer from Cheer's. Each bottle was individually wrapped in paper. I knew it would cause a search, but as I didn't check a bag I had no choice. So my bag stopped in the X-Ray machine. The man yelled "What the hell?" and his college came over to inspect it. They watched it for about three minutes, trying to figure out what it was. "Can we search this?" "Sure." They moved it to a back room for about four minutes. A man came out and said "What is this?" "Root beer?" "What?" "Root beer, like the soda?" "Oh. Ok, enjoy your flight." Who knows what could have been in those bottles.

PHL security is scary. Really scary. The woman at the X-Ray machine doesn't pay attention. At the end, where the rollers are, there were about four TSA officials with their feet on spewn on the rollers, screaming.

The TSA might "suck" in your eyes but they are the only thing standing in the terrorist way.

That's what I'm worried about.

With this in mind how many planes do you see crashing into buildings or blowing up mid-air.

They are afraid of passengers and cabin crew fighting back, not the TSA. Flight attendant manuals essentially told flight attendants to ask the terrorist if they cared for coffee. Hijackings in the 1960s and 1970s were no big deal, really. A nut would tell the Captain to fly to Havana, he would, they would land, re-fuel, the nut would be arrested and the passengers would get a bottle of rum and a box of cigars. Now, the last thing a flight attendant will do is be "passive".

If we all followed your viewpoint we would not have food after security, no bathrooms, no phones, no walls that you can't see through, everything either made out of paper or plastic.

Even Israel doesn't have standards like that!

AAndrew
 
bill142
Posts: 7853
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:35 pm

The govt isn't going to let commercial avation collapse

Commercial aviation as a whole won't collapse as it is an integral part of modern societies infrastructure. Some of the players, even some the major ones won't be able to survive.

Most of the carriers that would be flying the A380 at the time

That being a bit cynical don't you think?


If/when another attack involving an aircraft involved you can bet that all hell will break loose on the governement in question for not taking propper actions and not learning from previous events around the world. Sure we complain about security checks taking forever, but if we want to feel safe in the air it is nessecary.
 
ua777222
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:53 pm

AA757First,

Are you even old enough to get a job at McDonalds? Until you are I wouldn't be passing judgments on those who actually get off their butt and work for a living. Making statements like the one's above, be it factually correct or not, are not ok. Not by you, not by me, not by anyone. These people have a job that, even though you think they suck at, they manage to do well and still keep the airports and all passing passengers safe.

The statements are not correct and should not be stated in the form that they were. Not ALL TSA people are "stupid". Though some might truly be unfit to work in that field, most if not all of them are qualified and perform the job to it's max.

Burnsie28, AA757First, Myself, and a lot of the posters in this forum are all under 20. I'm soon to be 15, you are somewhere in that range, Burnsie is 18-20. We (well I try not to) all comment on stuff we have no right commenting on. How the hell would I know if the TSA is good or bad? How would I know if another 9/11 will happen? I'm just making an educated guess but you two come off as though you know it all and whatever you say is what's going to happen.

I try to live by this: If it shouldn't be said don't say it. If it should be said say it in a manner that comes off as though you are making an educated guess such as; "I think the TSA sucks b/c I have seen many errors that have caused the corruption of the flight b/c they were unsure if they had scanned a passenger or not causing them to evac. an entire terminal and spent 4hours rescanning all the passengers and both their checked and carry on bag's" not just "though the TSA Sucks..." or "the one's I've seen belong at McDonalds".

Just a thought.


UA777222
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
maiznblu_757
Posts: 4952
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:28 pm

If there were another attack, you wouldnt see very many photos from the US on airliners.net anymore, that is for sure, as bad as it is now.
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:45 pm

Hi guys,

Most of you will be familiar with what i do as a job, and also familiar with my habit of watching threads and responding when i feel i can add a valuable input - wish more members would do the same but there you go.

I can tell you catagorically that if a major 9/11 style attack, on a similar scale were to re-occur, then there would be major casualties within weeks. I feel that the European air network is more robust and probably better equipped to absorb a large attack as each major player has its own distict "back yard" - whereas in the US all the majors fight over the same traffic. I'm broadly oversimplifying much of this, so that it is easily understood by all our members in her, as sometimes, even as an analyst in the industry, i find some of the information on here inpenetrable, and confusing.

Figure 9/11 style losses for all the airlines concerned - US, United, probably SA)">AA would go. Their survival is debatable at the moment, with SA)">UA and SA)">AA being in the better postion. Continental, Delta, and Northwest would have to furlough staff left right and centre. The LoCos would be hit very hard too, as their business model is based on low-costs, and the first thing that will happen is the fuel suppliers will raise their prices as the price of oil rises, as it will in reaction to the attacks, in anticipation of reaction from those nations involved. In any case, as soon as the attack happens, all the airlines in any kind of danger will be placed on cash terms only with the jet fuel companies, and this will mean any airlines with poor liquidity will not able to pay for their fuel or any other d2d running costs that are not done on credit (as they are currently in most cases) - and this is how airlines stop running, and collapse. My job is to assess the credit worthiness of an airline and decide on a suitable credit line, any special terms, and make a review of that company's operations and financial situation - its a cool job - basically i get paid to talk about airlines like you guys do. Anyway back to the point-

To prevent a collapse, airlines will be compelled to ditch fixed asset strength (aircraft mostly) and the preferred way to do this is to sell them to banks and financial institutions and aircraft lessors who will then lease them back to the airline which provides a cashflow boost in the short-term but raises current liabilities on the balance sheet and all things being equal, it is better to own the aircraft. Any routes that are not profit making or show even the slightest signs of sluggish loads will be dropped and this means more business for Goodyear and Marana.

Once one of the majors falls, the industry will brace itself and any remaining credit lines will be dropped, and shareprices will plummet. There will be no confidence in the marketplace in the airlines considered "in danger" and this will spread into the media. Bookings will fall as people realise that the airline is in trouble, and this will kill the airline stone dead.

If SA)">UA and SA)">AA both fell, there would be no immediate under-capacity in the marketplace as traffic is laid low after the attacks and the uncertainty remains. How long it takes for bookings to begin to rise again, is open to question, though you can bet SA)">DL, SA)">NW, SA)">CO, and the LoCos will have removed any spare capacity from the desert, and increased fares to take up the slack. SA)">UA and SA)">AA will return albeit in a much reduced and more streamlined profile - their crown jewels, the 100+ 777s and various slots around the world such as LHR, will probably be gone. What happens to them will be open to question, though certainly the financial institutions owed money by SA)">UA/AA will have taken these assets away, and they will probably not be leased back to the new companies for routes it cannot run, so they will find their way onto the second hand market - who they will go to will be a source of great debate in here i imagine.

In the aftermath you will find that costs stay high. The problem may be that airlines cannot make an operating profit even with 90%+ load factors with the costs they have to carry in terms of fuel price, security etc, and ongoing losses year by year erode shareholder equity and will eventually be very damaging. You cant retain a 90% load factor without better than competitive fares, and if the company raises these fares the load factor will obviously go down - simple economics. Once the loads decline and operating costs stay high - the airline will become very loss-making very quickly, and may fail.

If no new 9/11 style attack happens i can see a lot of changes for the US industry, and a number of major players will have problems if oil prices remain high, or even get higher. If i had to guess, and its probably not very professional of me to name names, but as a rough guide (and by no means definitive) if a new attack were to happen id say the following would be staring collapse in the face - NOT certain to die, but in serious trouble - who would collapse would come down to timing, and outside influences that i dont have time to go into now, but suffice to say its a lottery. Figure any two or three from the list as worst case scenario.

SA)">UA
US
SA)">AA
SA)">DL
RG
AV
AC
LX
SK
AZ
SA)">HA

Id be a bit worried about:
SA
EI
SU
NG
KE
JL
JK
BD
BA
JE
SA)">CO
ANZ

I would say these guys are safe

AF
LH
IB
TP
SA)">NW
A6
SW
QF
SQ
MEA Middle East Airlines (Lebanon)">ME
MH
TG




What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
User avatar
Buyantukhaa
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:56 pm

Excellent post ChrisBA777ER! I wish more people would give such to-the-point answers. You are on my respected users list now!
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:26 pm

Thanks very much mate - appreciate it. Hope it helped.

Rgds,

CM
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:46 pm

Chris - I'd be more than worried about BA, I think BA might be one of the first to go. They are so dependent on transatlantic flying for their big money, look how deeply BA went into the sh*t after 9/11 - it was scary. If another one hit, on either side of the Atlantic, I'd say BA would be looking very very dicey indeed. Of course we don't know whether the EU might allow state aid or loan guarantees if the attack was in Europe, but still, BA would be in a LOT of trouble.

I think also that airlines in countries not in North America and Europe might do OK, especially those in non-Islamic countries (assuming of course any attack was originated by Islamic extremists). Carriers in Latin America and non-Islamic Africa (SAA being a prime example) might pick more traffic as Europeans try to avoid travel to the US for vacations etc. If there was an attack in the US again, US security measures would be MENTAL afterwards, the Visa Waiver Program would be the first to go, the US would basically kiss inbound tourism (and transit pax) good-bye. The loss of big chunks of transatlantic business would hurt VS and UK charter operators too, it would hit KLM/NW and AF/DL.

Bottom line it would be a mess.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
CHRISBA777ER
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Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:00 am

Cant really say too much, as we charge many hundreds of pounds for our detailed credit opinion, but i would say not to lose too much sleep over BA. They have massive fixed asset strength, and do not have a junk bond rating - they can borrow their way out of trouble, and should survive another big attack unless of course it was on Heathrow terminal four or something in which case there would be issues. BA are more vulnerable than VS for example, but not as screwed as you may think.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
prosa
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:07 am

Any routes that are not profit making or show even the slightest signs of sluggish loads will be dropped and this means more business for Goodyear

In more ways than one  Smile
Note: I don't mean to make light of what would be a terrible situation, but the double meaning of the word was just too good to pass up.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
RCS763AV
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:07 am

AV would get really bad if another 9/11 happened, i mean,their flights to the US are the cash cows! They dont face competition on CTG-MIA BAQ-MIA BOG-FLL and BOG-JFK!
 
prosa
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:11 am

It'll be the WN "trailer trash" who will be the first to decide no more plane trips to grandma's, not the business execs and salespeople who have to fly for business like it or not.

That is a very stereotypical description of WN's customer base. WN carries plenty of people with decent jobs and lifestyles, and yes, even many business travelers.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
ltbewr
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:05 am

The world has already weathered several 'big attacks' since 9/11 that affected economies and airlines around the world but for the most part airlines continued to survive. SARS disease, the Bali terror attacks, the War in Iraq led by the US and UK and continuing unrest there and for many months, the Israeli-Palestitan conflicts, the attempt to shoot down an Israeli charter flight in Africa, all have occured since 9/11/01.
If an attack within the USA were to directly involving an airliner, such as a 9/11 hijacking plot or cargo bomb or missle attack, I don't think any airline would survive without a major grant bailout. The airlines may have to be nationalized, under military orders much like WWII. Probably a program where those personnel whom are military reservists and aircraft under national/ military emergency program would probably have to be operated for a period of time just to get people home in the initial weeks.
Even if there were to be a major ground attack in the US, such as our current alerts are trying to prevent, the economy would still go into a depression-like status and NO company would be safe, including airlines.
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:08 am

It wont happen, but DL and US would be gone. UA Would fight it out like usual, and AA would enter the largest BK in aviation history.


UA
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
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RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:02 am

These people have a job that, even though you think they suck at, they manage to do well and still keep the airports and all passing passengers safe.

From an ABC news article:

Kyler Thompson, flight attendant: "Somebody could get a knife through there or that's a place where a bomb could get through."

Rachel Brownfield, flight attendant: "Our security at our nation's airports is a complete joke, and we're not laughing, it's not funny to us."

Flight Attendant: "Since September, we have found box cutters in places in the cabin of the aircraft."

Rachel Brownfield, flight attendant: "Passengers say, 'So, don't you feel much safer now after September 11?', and I say, 'No, and neither should you and this is why.'"

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/022702_iteam_back_door.html

The statements are not correct and should not be stated in the form that they were. Not ALL TSA people are "stupid".

Show me where I said that. Show me where I said they were stupid as a matter of fact. Are all TSA personnel stupid? No! I never said that. At EWR and FLL, to name a few places, I felt very safe.

If it should be said say it in a manner that comes off as though you are making an educated guess such as; "I think the TSA sucks b/c I have seen many errors that have caused the corruption of the flight b/c they were unsure if they had scanned a passenger or not causing them to evac. an entire terminal and spent 4hours rescanning all the passengers and both their checked and carry on bag's"

Did you look at my post before yours? The one about the root beer incident at BOS? That's why I think, in a few airports, security is lackluster.

Sorry that post was in all italics, it was 3:30 AM.

AAndrew
 
ua777222
Posts: 2987
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:23 am

RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:30 am

You stated it as though when we all go to the airport we can expect to have a highschool drop out, burger flipping, man/woman checking our bags. Like any other profession there will be slip ups and what not but you can't label all of them just biased off of your own experiences.

Persionally I have found that the TSA do a great job here at SFO in keeping the flow of passangers steady while at the same time allowing for the MOST caution to be taken.

Just a thought.

UA777222
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
JetMechMD80
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:27 pm

RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:27 am

I have to comment on this, while we make a lot of jokes about the TSA. (Thousands Standing Around), (Take Scissors Away) and so on.
But, the TSA is not the problem. Political Correctness is. As long as they shake down 82 year old ladies, and allow 25 year old Middle Eastern males to pass by, so they can prove they are not profiling. The problem will still exist.
Blame Liberal America, and the ACLU. They are the culprits, and they will be responsible if it happens again.
"I get along great with nobody"~ Billy Idol
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:19 am

JETMechMD80.....From someone who logs around 100 commercial flights a year,
which means he goes through a lot of airport metal machines and sees a good amount of TSA people, amen.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:19 pm

The sad part is people are under the impression that if you don't attend a college you aren't shit. We have retired military, young folks looking for careers, and people making step into the future, they aren't retards!!! They are very smart people. If you ask people like rogue trader who feel that only him and college degrees deserve bennies like the government he is wrong. Very smart and intelligent people aply for these spots. I would trust half the people searching my bags than a attitude bag like himself.

TSA doesn't = retard,drop our, burn out, stoner

WHILE I SAY THEY ARE COOL, THEY HIRE A FEW REAL ANAL PEOPLE!!!
most are so down to earth it is sick, they are good people.


UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
expressjetphx
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:33 pm

RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:36 pm

How about you watch your words....

With the new threat of home made bombs being built while in the air out of things that any ordinary traveler I'd be scared.

You're comments of "...though the TSA Sucks" should be rethought. The TSA might "suck" in your eyes but they are the only thing standing in the terrorist way.


Burnsie28 doesn't need to watch anything. The fact that the TSA is the only thing standing in the terrorists way is a very scary fact. I have seen TSA agents, on more than one occasion, pat down a handicapped 80+ year old woman hooked up to oxygen in a wheelchair because the belt that she couldn't get off anyways set off the metal detector. The poor woman probably couldn't get out of her seat on the plane even if she wanted to go to the bathroom.

In other experiences, I have had a TSA agent see my belt buckle in the X-Ray, and stand up from his post, while still keeping the X-Ray machine running, to call me until he could get my attention to compliment me on my belt. During this whole time, the X-Ray belt was moving and not once did he look at the screen. Sounds like this guy should have been flipping burgers. I believe that part of the reason that the TSA doesn't do their jobs like they should, is that there is no responsibility to any one agent. No agent can ever be tracked down and punished for not detecting something potentially dangerous, because there is no way to know who scanned who.

It is true that terrorists aren't blowing up buildings with planes anymore, but it is hard to believe that they would keep trying to perform the exact same attack. Correct me if I'm wrong, but before 9/11, we saw no airliners crash into buildings due to hijackings, and very few attempts. We obviously don't need the TSA, it's that the TSA needs us (our money). I believe that with privatized security, we could have saved taxpayer money, actually increase productiveness and efficiency, and better protect pax. With the TSA, all we get is bureaucracy. Honestly, I don't think anyone should have to pay their own money for the salaries of these people who obviously, as reported time and time again, cannot do their jobs. UA777222 can defend them all he wants, but then why are the TSA all over the news, and notorious for being lazy, inattentive, and sometimes dangerous?
 
expressjetphx
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:33 pm

RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:37 pm

I'm positive that a few members are either associated with the TSA or know someone who is and would find these comments very disrespectful. You should really back down and stop being the big "I'm going to kick all of their asses if they even try to pee in the wrong direction" and realize that 9/11 happened b/c they hit all the weak spots in aviation.

I'm positive that more than a few members are associated with the TSA, but I'm also positive that this isn't the first time they've heard she*t about TSA and their employees. You are right, they did hit the weak spots in aviation, mainly being security, but the government has only weakened the weakest spot by forming the TSA. Pre-TSA, sharp items such as scissors or knives et. would be routinely seized. I know that the terrorists got by the box-cutters, but because they were trained, and were well hidden. I don't think anyone on this earth could argue that TSA could have actually caught those. This past summer, in the Post-9/11 period, I was traveling with a friend PHX-ATL-MAD. She brought regular-sized sharp scissors unknowingly in her carry-on. The TSA failed to recognize the scissors, which were effectively two 9-inch pointed metal blades! When she discovered the scissors, she quietly threw them away in ATL because she was scared that the Spanish customs or security may find them.
 
expressjetphx
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:33 pm

RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:44 pm

Are you even old enough to get a job at McDonald's? Until you are I wouldn't be passing judgments on those who actually get off their butt and work for a living. Making statements like the one's above, be it factually correct or not, are not ok. Not by you, not by me, not by anyone.

Now this is where it gets downright ridiculous. According to your previous post, you aren't able to get a job at McDonald's either, so how can you pass any judgement, good or bad, about the TSA any more than anyone else? People with common sense also remember that being old enough to work at McDonald's is not a rite of passage that allows you to make judgements about government workers. It's just not related at all. Theres no problem in pointing out the truth as long as it is factually correct, and of course, we all have our own opinions. You happen to like the TSA, and countless other Americans happen to disagree but you are still allowed to like the TSA.

The point is: No, the TSA has not kept the airports and all passing pax safe. I'm pretty sure the fellow pax of the 'shoebomber' didn't feel all too secure. It is my own 'educated guess' that about 70 to even 90% of Americans will tell you that the TSA does suck at their jobs. I felt much safer in the Pre-TSA days, when the agents actually had motivation to work, not bureaucracy and wages from our taxes. Now, I feel like these agents don't know a hawk from a handsaw, the latter which is probably easier to get on a plane.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:45 pm

I'm find this topic to be very insensitive. To any family members of friends who died in the 9/11 attack I would like to apologize for this tactless post.

I agree. Its disrespectful and inappropriate to those who already lost their lives after 9/11 happened and those who are clinging on to their jobs at airlines who are on 'sinking ships' throughout the industry.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:13 pm

I, like a few million other regulars at the airport, are not knocking the TSA.
I just say, to me, it looks like they're looking in the wrong places with WHO they pull aside for REAL a search, that's all.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
kl911
Posts: 3979
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:14 pm

'''I'm find this topic to be very insensitive. To any family members of friends who died in the 9/11 attack I would like to apologize for this tactless post.'''

Are you communist or what? What's wrong with this subject? I have the feeling Americans make 9/11 to big. In history there have been bigger events, like the 1 million persons murdered in Rwanda. There is a real possibility of another attack like in Madrid and New York. Since that risk is there it's good to have a discussion about it.

As said so often, if you don't like a topic, don't read and answer it!!
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:31 pm

Are you communist or what? What's wrong with this subject? I have the feeling Americans make 9/11 to big.

I dont know what communist things have to do with 9/11, but I dont know about you, Kl911, You have no idea how things were like when 9/11 happened. I dont know where you were at the time, Im assuming you have no idea.

BTW, communism has nothing to do with 9/11. AND I dont believe anyone was 'acting' as a communist. Get a clue!

I vote that this thread be deleted as a whole!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
kl911
Posts: 3979
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:20 am

AirframeAS,

This a normal subject, with normal questions, and we all want to see normal answers. I said communist, because you wanted to delete this threat just because a few persons don't like it..

Anyway, back to topic: Since longhaul will suffer big time, will CX/SQ etc be in danger as well? Ofcourse it depends on where it happens, but it could as well be Hong Kong next time, as being a (capitalist) financial centre. I don't want to sound to negative, but we should be prepared incase it does happen. And here on A.net we have a lot of brain power to discuss those things.

I still don't believe the industry will suffer as much as in 9/11, since people tend to start to get used to things and continue their daily habbits.

KL911
 
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: The Risk : One More Big Attack And Who's Gone?

Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:42 am

I doubt an attack at the scale of 9/11 would occur in the near future in the US, but the real danger, as far as terrorism involving commercial arilines is concerned, is in other parts of the world. Many intl. airports in europe have very bad security. For example, just 1 week after that guy tried to blow up an AA flight from CDG to MIA I flew the same route in an AF flight and they werenot even close of checking if I had explisoves in my shoes. Needless to say the "smaller" european airports, such as BEG. I think most of europe doesnt realize the danger. And I dont even want to start with airports in some parts of Africa or in Latin America. That's why i'm afraid a 9/11 could happen again outside the US.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...

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