Oneworld Scrambling To Find New Canadian Partner?

Fri Feb 25, 2000 6:47 am

I read in a news article about a couple of weeks ago(can't remember which paper, definitely not the Edmonton Journal, though) that oneworld is rumored to be scrambling to find a new Canadian carrier to codeshare with, as CP is going to be pulled out of the oneworld alliance. CP is going to be in the Star Alliance, especially now that it will be merged completely with AC within the next few years.

However, only Canada 3000 and Air Transat would be large enough of an airline to codeshare - and they're both charter airlines - not scheduled. I kind of wonder if either carrier will become or have to become scheduled carriers like Wardair did briefly. (just hope neither goes under like Wardair did!) And I don't see any potential new scheduled Canadian carriers on the horizon yet.

Is there any truth to this situation?
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RE: Oneworld Scrambling To Find New Canadian Partner?

Fri Feb 25, 2000 7:29 am

Hello there,
I highly doubt that One world will want Canada 3000 or Air Transat in the alliance!! As you have said these are non scheduled airlines and I don't think that the traveling public will want to fly on something that has no choice of classes other than sardiene class!!! My parents have flown on both of these airlines and were totally hocked that they could fit so many people in a plane!! Plus that there was no room and had alot of trouble fitting on the flights!! My parents arenot very big or tall so I cannot imagine how a taller person like myself or a bigger person would feel after switching from say American, " Where Coach Has More Class " to Canada 3000 or Air Transat which have " NO CLASS " I hope that I don't offend anyone that works with ither of these companies. Sure your airlines are doing great things making certain flights affordable but you should really talk to your superoirs and see if you could get them to take out some seats and add another Class other than Sardiene!!!

Safety is Everyones Responsibility.
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Yes I Know That AirTransat Has...

Fri Feb 25, 2000 7:33 am

another class besides the all coach layout. but only on certain flights!! But you still have to worry about losing all feelijg in all your lower body if you fly this section! Also Canada 3000 had a Clud 3000 class and I heard that it was only on 1 757-200 aircraft?
Sorry that I have gotten off topic but this is to make my point about One World wanting to sign up ither of these airlines!! I highly doubt that they will!!

Safety is Everyones Responsibility.

RE: Yes I Know That AirTransat Has...

Fri Feb 25, 2000 8:20 am

i would like to have read that article myself and if it was accurate from oneworld looking for another canadian partner....

hey... ya snooze... ya loose!

all of the charter airlines are out of the question. they do not offer the dynamics that the alliance needs such as seperate classes, lounges, frequent flyer program, destinations and coverage, etc.

even if canada 3000 or air transat converted to scheduled services, it would take several years before any airline alliance would look at them as they have to remember that they are putting their own passengers on that other airline. they would not want to sacrifice the bad PR that will result.

the sad thing is, oneworld could have rescued canadian, which brings up a spin off point.... is star alliance much stronger than oneworld. are they more cohesive? they came to air canada's rescue to fend off Onex, yet when the chips were down, oneworld walked away from canadian. i wonder if they will regret it. Qantas may when those AC wheels land in Sydney soon!


RE: Yes I Know That AirTransat Has...

Fri Feb 25, 2000 8:38 am

Yes, I know how some people don't like using these Canadian charters because of the legroom and no biz class and all that. Even I don't want to fly on either one of those airlines! My brother and his g/f once flew on a C3 A330 from YEG to YVR - depating quite early in the morning, about 6 am or so. You should see the schedules! Very strange domestic departure and arrival times!

True, oneworld likely wouldn't go for taking of these charter carriers in right away for the reasons you (and I) said, but that could change if one or both of the carriers improve their seating and cabin service standards to the same level as AC or CP! Or a completely new Canadian scheduled carrier could arise, becoming a Canadian counterpart to Ansett Australia in the sense that it would be mostly domestic with a limited number of international routes.

Sorry to go off topic, but Transport Minister David Collenette had threatened to let US carriers take on Canada's domestic routes if no new Canadian competition comes along. I posted this topic some time ago. Quite a few people had said this is all nothing but a scare tactic, or as Flygirl put it, a comparison to the Three Stooges! But I have a feeling that he may actually mean it, and if this does happen, I don't think anybody would be laughing anymore and this could well be a serious warning to any Canadian airline to wise up! This is one of the main reasons why I said that either one of Canada's charter airlines could go scheduled or a new Canadian airline may come along.
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RE: Yes I Know That AirTransat Has...

Fri Feb 25, 2000 8:44 am

AA did, you will recall, retain some code-share rights on CP for the next 10 years, although that does leave the rest of oneworld out in the cold.

I personally doubt they're looking for a Canadian partner-who could they choose? At this point if they can either fly direct to the few big Canadian cities, or route passengers on AA, that can suffice. But losing CP does rather put 1W in a distant 3rd alliance in Canada, way behind Star and NW/CO as far as offering connections and destinations.

You guys also overlooked Royal Aviation. They're not as big as Transat or C3, but they do have a lot more diverse operations, and seem to have more interest in the domestic traffic. I could see Royal becoming a major player in domestic travel, although WestJet is taking a pretty good run at that segment, too. None of the charters would join 1W, of course, but just thought I add Royal to your list of "wouldn't joins" so as its not forgotten.
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RE: Yes I Know That AirTransat Has...

Fri Feb 25, 2000 8:52 am

oneworld may have lost its Canadian partner, however with the recent news of British Airways taking over the Africa- Australia routes for Qantas, QF could conceivably utilise the freed up aircraft to fly to Canada in their own right. It may well be a case of the flying kangaroo touching down on Canadian soil again. Interesting days ahead for sure.
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RE: Yes I Know That AirTransat Has...

Fri Feb 25, 2000 1:12 pm

WestJet would seem to be the most likely new Canadian Oneworld carrier as they have just announced the purchase(20+30 options) and lease(10+10 options) of 737s(600 or 700) from 2001-2008. This would give them a substantial domestic feed market that could be utilised by the AA,BA,CX and QF international services. I don't know if Oneworld is interested in another Canadian airline but with the possibility of having 70 737NGs by 2008 they would probably be the preferred option.
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RE: Yes I Know That AirTransat Has...

Fri Feb 25, 2000 2:54 pm

Me Again,
I would love to see another airline start up in the near future. Do any of you recall the Airline Called TRITON AIRLINES from St. john's Newfoundland? I had an interview with this airline once and if they had gotten off the ground I would have guessed that they woudl still be around today. They had Extreamly good service's in mind. Their First Class was outstanding, i have flown on Air Canada and to me it seemed it would have been on par with Air Canada if not beating it. Also their second class was something worth talking about.
Who knows mabye they are in the process of trying to get off the ground again. I hope so. I would love to see a Newfoundland airline started up again!! Remember EPA? That was an impressive airline as well. Hope something comes out of all this!!

Safety is Everyones Responsibility.
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RE: Oneworld Scrambling To Find New Canadian Partner?

Fri Feb 25, 2000 6:34 pm

I think Canada 3000 had aproval to commence scheduled flights to Europe and Australia and if i´m not wrong to Asia. With the merger of Canadian with Air Canada, Canada 3000 is in good place to substitute Canadian.
v jet
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RE: Tanguy

Fri Feb 25, 2000 6:53 pm

Tanguy I have not heard this announcement at all.
BA are pulling out of BNE and PER and are not flying Aust - Africa
on behalf of QF.
Do you have a source??

Not Going To Happen....

Sat Feb 26, 2000 1:33 am

I follow the canadian airline scene quite closely along with the prime world alliances and i know that they (the alliance) claim there is a "strict" governance and specific parameters that a new entrant must qualify under.

for canada 3000 to be considered, the world will have to revolve in the other direction first along with the other charters "i wanna be a scheduled guy" airlines.

can you imagine a guy coming off BA in Club Class and being put in an under mature business class that canada 3000 may have? before he does that, he will have to go into the bar at the airport and buy a drink because there is no lounge for Canada 3000. and frequent flyer points... might as well forget that too.

i am very confident that it would take years before one world will look at a new canadian representative as there is no serious or near to serious airline at the world alliance level.

like i have said, oneworld could have saved canadian...

you know what i would like to see.... Virgin Canada come in and offer business class at 50% along with lounges and a world wide frequent flyer program and lounges for the usual crowd that get in.... especially the reduction in business class fares.... i think Air Canada and Lord Milton have really become cockey of late!
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RE: Oneworld Scrambling To Find New Canadian Partner?

Sun Feb 27, 2000 6:49 pm

Airman99o: You a Newf? Good to hear from ya! Didja make the new year's in Town?

I remember the Triton days from when I was flying for Air Atlantic Ltd.

I certainly can't speak for my company, but as an employee looking at the big picture of OneWorld, it's difficult to see us filling that role on our own. As stated in this thread, we have (for the most part) one type of service: super economy. Yes, the leg room is tight. Yes, the baggage allocation is strictly monitored; yes, the price is cheap(er). For us, this has been a winning (read profitable) formula. If a OneWorld future is in our cards, I'm certain our powers-that-be are looking at it from a point of view as how it would benefit our type of operation, less than from a prestige point of view.

Sorry to jump in late, but I actually had to go to work over the last couple of days!

Best Regards,

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RE: Oneworld Scrambling To Find New Canadian Partner?

Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:57 am

All oneworld needs is an airline to feed pax to smaller destinations within Canada. We all know that BA, QF, CX can fly to the major Canadian airports and feed whoever. I would bet that if Westjet gets all those new airplanes,oneworld might look their way. They have the route network and they are sched. Don't count on C3 or especially Transat, charters don't have the KNOWHOW to run sched properly, they cater only to the leisure market and know very little about the business traveller. They don't have the staff for Reservations, most of them don't even have their own agents at the airports aside from YYZ and YVR, otherwise its Hudson General. I believe that not having their own res system would be the biggest downfall. Transat would have to do something about that so called "service" of theirs, cabin crew attitude and 9 abreast seating on an A330. C3 has a problem, namely their CEO. Although if I would place $ on a charter, they are definitely the best of the lot. No offence to anyone at C3, I have alot of good friends employed there and they are all very professional people. If I insulted anyone at Transat, oh well....
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RE: Oneworld Scrambling To Find New Canadian Partner?

Thu Mar 02, 2000 1:41 am

WestJet won't go in with oneworld. It has no business class, no lounges, no frequent flier programs, isn't going to fly to YYZ, and many other factors. The charters are the same story. 1W has lost its Canadian partner, and doesn't have any replacement in sight.

In terms of how they will cover for the loss of CP, I think 1W's Canadian network will look like this. BA and CX will fly to YVR and YYZ. That will handle overseas international traffic out of the two biggest airports. Other than that, AA will offer connections to medium sized cities like YYC. And anything else they feel the need to offer flights to would be handled by AA codeshare on American Eagle, or Horizon, or Business Express, or whoever. That would cover almost all the cities 1W would have any interest in offering connections to. It wouldn't be as good as CP, but it would be sufficient for the alliance.

RE: Oneworld Scrambling To Find New Canadian Partner?

Thu Mar 02, 2000 3:02 am

It looks like oneworld probably couldn't have saved Canadian Airlines even with a huge cash injection, anyway. CP's debt was so massive, and that probably made oneworld partners like BA or AMR very reluctant or even outright refuse to help bail out CP. Not to mention the federal government of Canada.

Most of you are right that C3 and Air Transat and WestJet wouldn't be even worth looking at by oneworld. In my opinion, I have a feeling that Canada will eventually have a new second scheduled carrier competing directly with AC. It will take years for that to happen, but it will happen, nevertheless, and it's not like I'm going to be an old fart by the time it happens! I'd say give it about 8-12 years or so and you'll likely see it happening.

RE: Oneworld Scrambling To Find New Canadian Partner?

Thu Mar 02, 2000 4:59 am

i think we have agreed that there will be no OneWorld representation domestically in Canada....

i tend to think that Air Canada should enjoy their ride right now, because if foreign money comes into Canada pulling a popular aviation brand with it.... watch out.

i also tend to wonder that when Westjet begins receiving their 737NG's, will it be a good time to bring in a 3 row "big seat" option which we be the usual 4 seats in a row and price the enhanced product at a slightly higher amount to offset the loss of 6 economy seats otherwise. i wonder if some frequent travellers from AC will come over because they just want a bigger seat, more comfort and a free drink?

sure, there is no lounge, frequent flyer points, etc.... but business class in Air canada for under 2 hour flights is really not that great anymore and you are paying up to $1700.00 whereas at westjet, you could maybe get the big seat for a return of $400.00?

bigger seat, free drinks, better snacks.... and a good stab in the "real" heart of Air Canada.... the business traveller.

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