boeingbus
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More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:12 pm


According to Boeing, the 747 aircraft with 450 passengers will have 2% higher trip costs and 6% lower seat-mile costs than a 747-400 with 416 passengers. Using its US international rules, Boeing claims that the 747ADV will have 19% lower trip costs and 3% lower seat-mile costs than an A380 with 542 passengers.

The 747ADV will have an MTOW of 930,000 lb. and a range of 8000 nm with a noise footprint 40% less than the 747-400. Regional Director-Product Marketing Mike Wilson told this website that the company hopes to have aircraft definition by mid-2005 with a launch in the first half of 2006 and delivery in the first half of 2009.

http://www.atwonline.com/indexfull.cfm?newsid=4466

Very nice numbers and I really hope to see this happen. They are a lot of 747 operators out there where these numbers would garantee the life of the 747 for many years to come.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
JeffDCA
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:20 pm

Cheers for the info, BoeingBus. I too hope to see this bird become a reality!

Cheers,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:25 pm

The 747ADV will have an MTOW of 930,000 lb. and a range of 8000 nm with a noise footprint 40% less than the 747-400.

Sounds like some of the 747-400QXLR tech will make its way onto the 747-Adv, no pun intended  Big grin

Very nice numbers and I really hope to see this happen. They are a lot of 747 operators out there where these numbers would garantee the life of the 747 for many years to come.

At this point I think Boeing's best bet is to market this as a very-low risk alternative to the A380 and as a nearly 1:1 744 replacement. Few airlines want to replace an old 744 with a new 744, so a 747-Adv might prevent those airlines from finding some way to justify the A380.

If there are any commonality ties (in terms of systems and engines) then Boeing might have atleast put their foot in the door, which for now, is better than nothing.

Using its US international rules, Boeing claims that the 747ADV will have 19% lower trip costs and 3% lower seat-mile costs than an A380 with 542 passengers.

And when compared with an A380 in an SQ-like configuration of less than 500 seats, I'm sure this is even more favorable for the 747-Adv... though the 747 would not match the A380s comfort.... that is to say, unless Boeing can pull off some *very* innovative cabin enhancements.
 
AvObserver
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:49 pm

"Sounds like some of the 747-400QXLR tech will make its way onto the 747-Adv, no pun intended."

Exactly. The Advanced model is largely an evolution of the QXLR, the principal difference, along with the slight stretch, is that it will use more fuel-efficient engines; bleed-air adapted variants of the 7E7's powerplants, according to Flight International. FI said there would be no major systems changes, mainly just flight deck upgrades. Whether they can sell it or not is still up in the air but it's nice BCA is trying to stay in the very large airliner market in some capacity. The freighter is a slightly larger stretch and MTOW (around 960,000 lbs.) and I suspect, if the Adv. is launched, this could be the most popular model.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:02 pm

The freighter is a slightly larger stretch and MTOW (around 960,000 lbs.) and I suspect, if the Adv. is launched, this could be the most popular model.

If the 747-Adv-F indeed has that much demand, could we possibly see the freigheter version subsidize a passenger version like the 747-400ER?

Whether they can sell it or not is still up in the air but it's nice BCA is trying to stay in the very large airliner market in some capacity.

This has been the achiles heel of all 747-X proposals, securing a firm order  Big grin

If Boeing were to approach an airline who still hasn't committed to the A380 and offered the 747-Adv in conjunction with the 7E7.. I'd be interested in the response.
 
AvObserver
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:57 pm

"This has been the achiles heel of all 747-X proposals, securing a firm order."

You are SO right, DFWRevolution! 3 1/2 years ago before it scrapped its' last near A380-sized 747X, program manager Walt Gillette was at one point, going to commit it to development WITHOUT any firm orders, saying "Boeing will pick its launch customers along the way" to first flight in Dec., 2004. Fortunately, wiser heads at BCA prevailed and a costly potential 'while elephant' was aborted. All recent new 747 proposals have come to naught, although I suspect the Advanced may just break that mold due to its more fuel-efficient engines and growing demand in Asia. Still, unlike the A380, I feel demand might be weighted to the freighter. As for your last possibility, sure, a sales package tying it to the 7E7 might be a good bet for some non-A380 carriers since it will also use a 7E7 engine variant. For those not needing a true 'superjumbo' and not bent on having the newest technology, the 747-Adv. would warrant serious consideration.
 
United Airline
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:54 pm

I am sure airlines like CX, SQ, BA, UA, QF etc will be interested.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:19 am

CX, BA are definitly contenders, but I'd say SQ and QF are out as they have already ordered the A380 and expressed interest in the 777-300ER. I would also put NW on the list for no other reason than they don't like to take risks. Asian opperations are extremly valuable to UA, so if they get their fianances in order around 2010, maybe they could be in there as well....
 
United Airline
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:27 am

Well the gap between the B 777-300ER and the A 380 is big so I believe QF and SQ will order let's say 25 frames.

QF wants additional B 747-400ERs and they ordered them along with the A 380 a few years ago, which means, they are committed to the B 747 program
 
DIA
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:36 am

A stretched 747. Never thought I'd see it happen. But with the A380, it is obvious that there would be a market for an a/c in between the two. I think it would become the 747-500.

The question is, will Boeing still offer the current size 747 when the 747ADV is being produced? Or will Boeing only offer the 747ADV while selling the 777-300 to replace the regular size 747s out there?





Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:50 am

Or will Boeing only offer the 747ADV while selling the 777-300 to replace the regular size 747s out there?

I think Boeing's intention is for the 747-Adv to replace those regular sized 744s out there. There is no arguing that there is increased demand for larger aircraft, the question is how large. Jumping 150 seats to an A380 is a lot of risk for some airlines, jumping 20-30 seats to the 747-Adv is easier to swollow. As of now, airlines looking to replace their 744 only have these choices-

1. Replace a 20 year old aircraft with a new build of a 20 year old design
2. Drastically increase capacity to the A380
3. Remove about 50 seats and downgrade to a 777-300ER or A346

If an airline can fill a 744, why even consider option 3? The 744 is a fine aircraft, but its grey hair is starting to show. And then there is always risk of having too much capacity with the A380. The 747-Adv effectivly gives airlines an option 4.
 
United Airline
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:52 am

They should offer two B 747 Advanced variants: 1) The 450 version 2) A B 747-400 sized B 747 Adv
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:55 am

United Airline: This was, in fact, the basic idea behind the 747-500X/600X. The 600X would be the big stretch with the same range as the 400, and the 500X would be the small stretch with megarange.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:04 am

United Airline: This was, in fact, the basic idea behind the 747-500X/600X. The 600X would be the big stretch with the same range as the 400, and the 500X would be the small stretch with megarange.

If a 410 passenger 747-Adv were to have the same MTOW as the 450 passenger 747-Adv, it would push the range of the 7E7-8...

This might be attractive to some customers, but at the same time, it would increase development cost and add complexity to the whole 747 family. Boeing is not looking to put that much food on their plate
 
brons2
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:14 am

They should stretch it farther, as many seats as they can get in up to 998,000 lbs @8000 nm, in order to get the maximum number of pax across the bridge at LAX.

Even though they won't, at 930,000 lbs, this tips the scales quite a bit lower than the A380 and may be an easier sell than more massive variants of the 747.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
SNATH
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:43 am

BoeingBus,

Many thanks for the info!

United Airline,

I am sure airlines like CX, SQ, BA, UA, QF etc will be interested.

Hasn't also LH shown interest and been asking Boeing to build the 747ADV to bridge
the gap between the A340-600 and then A380?

Tony
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whitehatter
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:04 am

The freight version of a 747A would be the killer version.

There are many older 742s out there which will need replacing in the medium and long term. The 744SF conversion won't cut it for many of these requirements as the swing-nose for outsize freight is where they are going to be needed.

Even cargo A380s won't offer the outsize ability of the 747, no matter what their capacity or weights. There's billions of dollars worth of business in freighters alone for Boeing to totally dominate.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
United Airline
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:46 am

Yes LH is very interested too. Also MH and TG.

Well the B 747 Advanced should be a LOT more advanced than the B 747X
 
Greg
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:56 am

Will it be FBW?
.
.
..




 
United Airline
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:29 am

Yes it will from what I heard. Well it has to be in order to be ADVANCED
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:33 am

Yes it will from what I heard. Well it has to be in order to be ADVANCED

Not at all, the 737NG has sold 2000+ units and it is non-FBW.
 
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tavong
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:21 am

what is FBW???

Gus
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whitehatter
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RE: More Info From Boeing On The 747ADV

Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:24 am

FBW is fly-by-wire

Simply put, it's an electrical system which replaces the pulleys and metal cables that previously operated the control surfaces of an aircraft. It reduces weight as there isn't all that internal knitting to be carried.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...

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