FJWH
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Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:16 pm

I was wondering this for a while:

Imagine: A plane flying LHR - JFK(example) is hijacked. It's heading for the USA. Is there a plane of action for these kind of situations?
Can somebody tell me what the authority is going to do? Like for example: shoot down the plane so it can't be used for purposes as 9/11.

Any reply: thanks

FJWH
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7LBAC111
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:18 pm

I think its a cert that if a plan is hijacked and it can be safely shot down, it will be. A small sacrifice - but the pax become unwilling heroes. But only after all other attempts and negotiations have been proved fruitless.

Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
pilatusguy
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:21 pm

A wise thing to do is talking to the hijackers and seeing where the plane actually goes. It is not in any way appropriate to shoot down a plane just because it's hijacked and heading to the US.
Looking at the USA's - let's call it: state of alert - they would probably send up some fighters to impress the folks and may even shoot - at the very last minute.

Sidetask: Think about what (i.e.) India would do if a hijacked plane would be heading towards their territory.....
 
jonathan-l
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:25 pm

The film Executive Decision offered a solution: use a F-117 to fly in US Marines, have them enter the aircraft through a cargo door of some sort and have them take posession of the aircraft.

If the aircraft is flying from London to New York, little chance it would have much fuel at destination. How much impact did the quantity of fuel have on the 9/11 scenario?
 
Gary2880
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:28 pm

isnt being safley shot down a contradiction in terms
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
FJWH
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:31 pm

"How much impact did the quantity of fuel have on the 9/11 scenario?"

A lot I guess, both planes had just took off and had some distance to fly to their (original) destinations. So a pretty big quantity of fuel was on board.
But Londen - New York was just an example.

FJWH
FlightS in the next 3 months: MSP, PHX, MEM, NCE, TFS, BCN. All round trips from AMS
 
IAH777
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:35 pm

isnt being safley shot down a contradiction in terms

Safely for those below, but yes, it is an oxymoron. More than unwilling heroes, the pax would become martyrs. Shooting it down would be the "best" option, but not one made easily.
 
edka
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:46 pm

The film Executive Decision offered a solution: use a F-117 to fly in US Marines, have them enter the aircraft through a cargo door of some sort and have them take posession of the aircraft.

please tell me you are joking, right??
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:51 pm

EDKA - They got a load of maribes in through a small opening in the underside of the aircraft - if i remember correctly - but it not possible in real life.

Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:01 pm

Note to pilots: never open cockpit door.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
jonathan-l
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:04 pm

EDKA,

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116253/

Great movie though!
 Wink/being sarcastic
 
rwylie77
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:10 pm

I don't think the hijackers would do this because of the risk of being shot down would be too great. They would be more likely to hijack a plane going from New York to London and turn it around quickly before there was a chance of jets being sent up.

I think there is so much focus on aviation and security, i think the next time they will strike it will be on something with low security such as trains (like Madrid recently) or a cruise ship for example.
 
JCS
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:11 pm

While wondering either the rescue-plot from Executive Decision is a real possibility (I remembered btw: "Critical Decision"), it is scary how the movie and 9/11 are equal.

Check also: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116253/board/nest/9412157
"The whole plot of the movie has relevance to 9/11 [ hijaking planes (which was done before in Passanger 57), islam, etc]."
 
ltbewr
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:13 pm

First, assuming an armed marshall is on the flight, he/she would probably have reduced the chance of this situation going any further than an initial phase of the attempted hijacking. Second, with the new cockpit doors or clear procedures to reduce access to the cockpit, and will not open them would probably fly severe manuvers to throw around the a-holes. Third, the a/c would be in constant radio contact with government authorities in the UK and US to determine the situation if just knifes, guns or a bomb on board and find out what the hijackers wanted. Fourth, probabably all flights within and inbound to the US would be halted and grounded until the situation concluded and later reborded with extreme inspections of passangers, luggage and freight. Probably some inbound flight would be diverted or retuned to airport departed from, depending where in flight. Fifth, the flight would be surrounded by military aircraft to act if necessary. Sixth, the a/c would probably be directed to an airport not in a major city (a diversion or emergency airport) or maybe a military air base. Once the a/c is on the ground then 'negotations' would take place and if they fail, then storming of the a/c at great risk of the death of many pax. If the a/c cannot be diverted, and continues to present a high risk of a crash into a building, then after all else fails it would be shot down.
 
edka
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:13 pm

I have seen the film, the reason i was asking if you were joking is that you don't REALLY believe this can happen in real life, do you?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:18 pm

As Ltbewr says, the situation has to progress rather far for it to get to the point of shooting down the plane.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
Gary2880
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:19 pm

also about the being shot down bit, wouldnt it be in the hijackers interests to wait till they reached american airspace or something? i would have thought it was silly from their point of view to hijack it too early, just depends on their intentions i guess
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
jonathan-l
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:19 pm

EDKA,
No, although I liked the creative minds of the guys who wrote the script.
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:22 pm

I hope nobody thinks I'm an advocate for shooting down planes which have been hijacked - hence (from my original post!) ? Insane

But only after all other attempts and negotiations have been proved fruitless.

Edited to correct spelling.

[Edited 2004-08-19 14:24:32]
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
soaringadi
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:33 pm

"Can somebody tell me what the authority is going to do"

If its VS or BA......

Then blow the bloody plane off
If it ain't Boeing, I'm not going !
 
bennett123
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:44 pm


Soaringadi

Given that last time that it was AA and UA...
 
soaringadi
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:53 pm

Bennett...

It's nothing personal.... as if I am against any British airline or something.....

Infact I have flown on Bmi a couple of times since it's a member of star allianc, whenever I went to Europe.
If it ain't Boeing, I'm not going !
 
NIKV69
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:16 pm

The only course of action is sending two fighters to intercept it, if the hijackers don't change course then it must be shot out of the sky, in this day and age with Terrorism we don't have many choices. If the pilots get overpowered and there is no air marshal we must let our Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines defend us. With force.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
richierich
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:29 pm

I agree with Rwylie77. A hijacking attempt in the vain of 9/11 is unlikely, at best. It may have worked pre-9/11 but it sure wouldn't after.

Unfortunately terrorists are more creative than this and there are other means I am sure they will explore first. Is it possible there are al-Qaeda pilots out there, flying for non-US airlines? Absolutely.
None shall pass!!!!
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:50 pm

Let's also not forget that there are other means of terrorizing, though I would argue that airplane terror is more frightening to many people because of the whole claustrophobia/fear of flying thing.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:32 am

In my opinion, I believe you'd have the same scenario as 9/11.

I don't believe the hijackers would hijack the plane too early in the flight, therefore helping their cause of "surprise" attacks.. If they hijack the plane 20/30 minutes out of New York/the US, there going to be shot down or escorted to the ground via fighter jets OR subdued by the pax/crew. NO one is going to let a terrorist take over a plane again, trust me. Since we all now know that it's a hopeless cause (i.e, if there's a bomb on board, you have a 50/50 chance of living or dying, so you might as well try to turn the tide of luck on your side).

If this were to ever happen again, I don't believe we are adequetly protected, even though we are being assured we are. Look at the stupid Canuck (Canadian) at the Olympics. 1.x billion dollars of security, and some guy in a tutu just walks into the swimming pool and dives off the diving board. Perfect example.

The only way they would be able to do ANYTHING about this, was if someone on the plane was able to communicate to the ground that they were being hijacked. In which case, the US would take appropriate action in removing the danger to their Homeland. If this meant taking the plane down with a missle, then it's going to go down.

This 'shooting down' of aircraft has occurred in other countries before. I believe China and Russia have both shot down Airliners whom were supposedly in restricted areas. No negotiation, just shot down. The US actively tries to dissuade terrorists from doing what they are going to do, and if that doesn't work, they need to resort to the same manner. 200-300 people dying for the sake of 3,000 isn't any easier to swallow, however it's the honorable thing to do.

This is the scary part of terrorism. The terrorism isn't the hijacking. The terrorism is the "what ifs...." that come with the threats.

Lets hope and pray to whomever you choose to pray to, that this won't occur ever again.

1011yyz.
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
Indio66
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:25 am

If the plane gets too close to the US it will absolutely be shot down. Depending upon timing, fighter pilots now have the authority to do so.
 
bruno
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:35 am

FJWH


My best advice, just don't do it.  Smile
I support the women’s movement up and down!
 
robsawatsky
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:54 am

Firstly, I wouldn't use China or Russia as good examples of how airspace should be protected with due consideration for human life.

Secondly, if the hijacker/terrorist is of the "martyr" variety, the situation could be designed specifically to incite the shooting down of the plane. Mission accomplished, the hijacker only needs to be a threat and the victim country will complete the scenario to the desired outcome. Could be a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't situation.
 
acidradio
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:01 am

In this day and age, the passengers need to get mad, get even and mob the hijackers. Make everyday non-restricted items on the airplane into weapons and kill them. Jab a sharp pen into their eye. Take it and jab it into their other eye and their ears. Smash them in the face with a dress shoe (those hard soles could really hurt). Take your car keys and make a makeshift brass knuckles. Find the emergency liferope and when they are subdued strangle them until they expire. Pour hot coffee at them. Put their hands on the coffee maker burn element, I don't care if it burns all the skin off their hand make it so they can do nothing but howl in pain. When they are howling in pain, break every bone in their face so they can do nothing but suffer and stay subdued. Stick their face in the vacuum lav and keep flushing.

Everybody needs to get up and do this. Also, you need to make sure that the hijacker doesn't have accomplices waiting for the mob to go after one only to attack the passengers while they are taking care of the first one. You make it clear that if you aren't helping out in the attack that you stay put or else. Also, once you let the hijackers split you apart and segregate you, you are finished. You have to act quick and immediately.

Look I know this all sounds angry but this is what has to be done. If one of these guys really has a bomb, it's likely a 50/50 chance that you will survive anyways. You have to be vigilant.
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
robsawatsky
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:01 am

Firstly, I wouldn't use China or Russia as good examples of how airspace should be protected with due consideration for human life.

Secondly, if the hijacker/terrorist is of the "martyr" variety, the situation could be designed specifically to incite the shooting down of the plane. Mission accomplished, the hijacker only needs to be a threat and the victim country will complete the scenario to the desired outcome. Could be a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't situation.
 
AEROFAN
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:34 am

It better had not be a VS plane. What what I hear. The Air Force will ask it to land. If it doesn't well - that will be all she wrote folks!
 
aviationwiz
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:40 am

Second, with the new cockpit doors or clear procedures to reduce access to the cockpit, and will not open them would probably fly severe maneuvers to throw around the a-holes.

Most American, or even most pilots in general, are not trained to do 0G maneuvers in a commercial aircraft, I assume you got that idea from what the El Al pilots did during the Dawson's Field Hijackings.
Proudly from the Home of the Red Tail.
 
sunnyb
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:06 am

QUOTE Reply: 2:
     Sidetask: Think about what (i.e.) India would do if a hijacked plane would be heading towards their territory.....


What would India do??
 
GuyBetsy1
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:09 am

Americans are just too paranoid these days.

Paranoia fuels fear. Fear fuels ignorance. Ignorance fuels arrogance. Arrogance fuels suspicion. Suspicion fuels paranoia.

[Edited 2004-08-19 21:11:23]
 
AA717driver
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:18 am

This is what would happen: Some F-15 pilot from the Mass. ANG would get to stencil a little 747 silhouette under the canopy of his jet.TC
FL450, M.85
 
mikester540
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:19 am

Right when the plane enters US Airspace, blow it up. Then send president bush on vacation in crawford,TX and leave him there...


Mike
We need men who can dream of things that never were. -John F. Kennedy
 
MCIrunway
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:43 am

"Americans are just too paranoid these days.

Paranoia fuels fear. Fear fuels ignorance. Ignorance fuels arrogance. Arrogance fuels suspicion. Suspicion fuels paranoia."

A gentleman and a scholar.
 
David T
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:52 am

Acidradio: You have hit it on the nail... Yes, the U.S. Government (Homeland Security, etc) will have numerous scenarios worked out... But at the end of the day, all passengers on this plane knows what happened on Sept. 11, 2001. The reality is very clear to them... Get up and beat the living crap out of them... Because after all, the end result will be death anyway. So go out on your own terms and the chance of victory and survival is very high. "You got a bomb, detonate it... Becuase you're going to anyway!"

Sad reality, but this is the time when passengers won't need flight attendent safety instructions.
 
ordflyer
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:01 am

"Sad reality, but this is the time when passengers won't need flight attendent safety instructions."

I couldn't agree more. I am convinced that a 9/11 style hijacking is no longer possible, not only because of increased security on the ground, but because the passengers will just not stand for it. Imagine how many hijackers you would need to compete against 200+ angry passengers who know that they're screwed anyways if they cooperate with demands so they might as well go down fighting.
 
Logan22L
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:28 am


Acidradio: Enjoyed your post; I agree with the concept - find whatever you can to defend freedom from terrorism. I think you left out "rip their heads off and defecate down their necks." But seriously, I think and do hope that no passenger would be unwilling to mount whatever offensive it would take to thwart any hijacking attempt, regardless of the cost.

Logan
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
nosedive
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:32 am

Most American, or even most pilots in general, are not trained to do 0G maneuvers in a commercial aircraft, I assume you got that idea from what the El Al pilots did during the Dawson's Field Hijackings.
Tell that to the crew of FX 705........ In any event, you can be damn sure that I'd, and most anyone else, who'd try to breach an already breached cockpit would do anything we could to upset that plane.....

As for the topic, I think it'd be political suicide for any leader who shoots down an airliner as a first resort, espcially one over the mid-Atlantic. Now if the plane was 15 min of of LHR, JFK, IAD, you get the idea..... that's another story...
 
IndianFlyboy
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:05 am

Sidetask: Think about what (i.e.) India would do if a hijacked plane would be heading towards their territory.....

Pilatusguy ,

Dont get your point . What would India do , the same as anybody else , scramble fighters , however I seriously doubt the part about shooting the aircraft down though , it would be forced to land alright. Shooting the aircraft down will be the last option , if it is proving a threat to innocents on the ground and any kind of negotiation is failing. However if the aircraft does land , it will be taken over , thats for sure.

Regards
 
UA744KSFO
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:11 am

I don't think the terrorists will ever be able to successfully pull off another hijacking again. If they even tried to get more than 5 of them on the same plane again, they'd probably be caught before they could even get on the plane, and if they have fewer than 5, I think the passengers would have the advantage in taking them down. Besides, pilots that I have spoken to have said that a number of security measures have been taken within the airlines to make sure that they could not be hijacked.

That being said, I think that cargo planes may still be vulnerable. There are fewer crewmembers on board, and the planes would cause the same kind of damage as a civilian airliner (in terms of those on the ground).

If the terrorists are going to hijack a plane, they're probably going to pick a cargo plane, but if they are just going to destroy a plane (like Richard Reid tried to do), that's the more pressing concern.
 
wdleiser
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:31 am

Yes, yell at them, if they don't respond send out fighters and try and make them turn back, then if they don't and get to close they will be shot down if it looks like they will crash and not land.
 
DC10Heavy
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:01 am

This may offend some politically correct people however, if we (the U.S. and Europe) properly profile passengers (Terrorist Profiling) like the Masad does for El-Al, chances of hijacking by the infidel's would be slim to none.

And yes, I am saying that the MASAD / I.D.F plays the part of your typical Cust. Serv. Rep. at both the check-in and gate area.

NWA DC10 LAX to HNL the only way to go!
 
MattCLE
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:18 am

If I were a passenger on a hijacked plane I would sure hope I could gather up the strength to fight back. Of course it is one thing to say it and then do it if I were in that situation. I think in the world we live in today if you want to survive a hijacking over the US the only option is to fight back and regain control of the plane. I don't think any US officials are going to risk having that plane flown into a skyscraper, dam, power plant, etc. I would rather die fighting back then just sitting in my seat awaiting my doom. Hopefully no one will have to be put in this situation.

-Matt
Bear Claw, Free Fall, A Gunner's View
 
AEROFAN
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 11:07 am

Soaringadi

bite your tongue, no I mean it bite it in two!
 
N766UA
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:09 pm

If an airplane were over the ocean and we knew it was hijacked, we'd shoot it down in a heartbeat. NORAD is jumpy enough as it is.
This Website Censors Me
 
fspilot747
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RE: Imagine: Plane Hijacked And Heading To The USA

Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:39 pm

Don't know if I'd have the sack to do it, but if the military was gonna inevitably shoot us down, I'd just make a mad rush at the hijacker(s). Might as well go with a fight. I bet if enough passengers mobbed the terrorists, it might work. I guess that's easy to say from down here, though.


FSP

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