widebody
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TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Fri Aug 20, 2004 11:17 pm

Full article on www.irishexaminer.com

A Portuguese airliner dived sharply to avoid a mid-air collision with a smaller aircraft near the Azores Islands today, injuring 23 passengers and two crew.

The TAP Air Portugal Airbus A310, carrying 131 passengers and eight crew from Lisbon, was on its approach to the mid-Atlantic islands when a cockpit alarm and the local air traffic control tower warned the pilot of an imminent collision with a twin-engine Beechcraft crossing its path, officials said.

The jetliner went into a steep descent and those on board who were not wearing seat belts were thrown against the plane’s ceiling. None of the injuries was said to be serious.

The Beechcraft, which belonged to private Portuguese airline Omni, was flying to Cascais, near Lisbon, officials said.

The TAP Air Portugal plane landed safely and some of those hurt were taken to hospital, the flag-carrier said in a statement. The Beechcraft continued its flight.

Authorities said they were opening an official investigation into the incident.
 
7LBAC111
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Fri Aug 20, 2004 11:19 pm

Wow - thats the 2nd Near Miss posting today. (the other at LAX)
Thank god this didnt end in disaster.

Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
CV990
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 1:23 am


Hi!

Just to add, the TAP airplane involved was A310-300 CS-TEW and according with some passengers the airplane made a righ turn and then it descended right away.
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
luisde8cd
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:19 am

Does anyone know which was the flight's destination/arrival airports?
 
cedarjet
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:36 am

Why do people take their seatbelts off in flight? Anyone who dies of injuries in turbulence (other than cabin crew and pax going to or from the toilet) should be given a Darwin Award. It never fails to astound me when I hear a chorus of unbuckling sounds when the seatbelt sign goes off after takeoff. Idiots.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
fraspotter
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:37 am

Here is the same story from airwise.com

http://news.airwise.com/stories/2004/08/1093002529.html
"Taking off is optional. It’s landing that’s mandatory."
 
fraspotter
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:45 am

Cedarjet,

So you are saying that you have NEVER unbuckled your seatbelt even once while flying in an airplane? That is extremely hard to believe... Insane
"Taking off is optional. It’s landing that’s mandatory."
 
cancidas
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:48 am

err.... why was the beechcraft routed in front of a heavy?
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
knoxibus
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:09 am

Why do people take their seatbelts off in flight? Anyone who dies of injuries in turbulence (other than cabin crew and pax going to or from the toilet) should be given a Darwin Award. It never fails to astound me when I hear a chorus of unbuckling sounds when the seatbelt sign goes off after takeoff. Idiots.

At last somebody I definitely agree with. I hate that kind of attitude. I've got a friend who is F/O on a T7. At arrival, everytimes he hears the F/As performing a PA and saying "please remain seated until arrival at parking" to all the idiots that unbuckled their belts and are already opening the luggage bins, he slams on the brake slightly, just to scare them off. Morons.

Ohh and FRASpotter, even on long-haul flights, I NEVER unbuckle my seat belt, apart, like Cedarjet mentioned as you should have read, when going to the lavatories, or going to the galleys area chatting with the F/As  Smile
No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
 
captaingomes
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:47 am

I agree, I always leave my seatbelt buckled during flight when I'm in my seat. I don't leave it tight, but you just never know when something might happen. You are travelling at high speed through the atmosphere, and there are many things that could happen instantly, and without warning.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
MD80Nut
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:47 am

>>Why do people take their seatbelts off in flight? Anyone who dies of injuries in turbulence (other than cabin crew and pax going to or from the toilet) should be given a Darwin Award. It never fails to astound me when I hear a chorus of unbuckling sounds when the seatbelt sign goes off after takeoff. Idiots.<<

I couldn't agree with you more, Cedarjet! I always keep my seatbelt on except when I have to go to the toilet. I was on a Piedmont 727-200 back in the early 80s when we hit a patch of turbulence. While it wasn't too bad, I saw people's heads and shoulders as they were momentarily lifted out of their seats before falling back. No one was hurt, only some drinks and food were spilt, and a few nerves frayed, but if it had been more severe many would have been injured. My seat belt kept me secured in my seat.

Stay safe, keep the seat belt buckled!

cheers, Ralph
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
henpol747
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:35 am

Remember: NEVER take your seatbelt off during the flight!!!  Big thumbs up

Cheers,

Henpol747
Vive la France! ¡Viva México!
 
FlyingColours
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:47 am

I always keep my seatbelt fastened from when I get on to when I get off - I never need to get up on the 4 hour flights.

What I don't get is this aircraft was on it's approach??? so why would people have their belts unfastned? the report says approach to the island so I am not sure.

RE T7 F/O: That's exactly what I plan to do when I start flying commercially.

So the beechcraft continued flying then?, seems odd - can't put it into logical words for you guys right now, maybe tomorrow.

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
Pe@rson
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 7:54 am

I too always keep my seatbelt tighted - I don't even think about it. The exception, of course, is when I need the toilet. I don't think I'd feel particularly comfortable without it tightened.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:32 am

What's even more unbelievable here is that the TAP A310 was on its final portion of flight - i.e descent - and there were still 30+ people with no seatbelts on.

If it happened during the cruise portion of the flight, then I would understand, because not everyone puts on their seatbelt all the time while seated.

But during the approach phase of the flight!...Like you said CedarJet...IDIOTS!

TheNoFlyZone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
aussie747
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:49 am

In car do you take your sealt belt off whilst it is in motion, why should in the air be any different. Do what I do just loosen the seatbelt do not undo it. I have no sympathy for those that are injured because they took of their seatbelt. Being a candidate for the Darwin award is an understatement to say the least.
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 1:17 pm

When Im in my seat and the seatbelt sign goes off I have to admit I do loosen mine up so I can hardly tell its there, but never take it off unless it's to get something out of my pocket, go to the can, get something from the bin, etc. Seatbelts are for putting on, not for sitting on.



CanadianNorth
What could possibly go wrong?
 
airxliban
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:32 pm

there's really not a whole lot of point in unbuckling your seat belt during flight unless you're going to get up or have to move around.

now in a car its a different story...
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
leelaw
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 5:00 pm

Unbuckling your seat belts? What about the concept of the airliner as a flying cruiseship, aka A380, with: lounges, bars, spas, pools, showers, duty free shops, bowling alleys, etc.?
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
justplanecrazy
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 5:13 pm

Ive noticed in the many ITVV cockpit videos ive watched that the pilots rarely wear their seat belts.Apart from take off and landings.
your pilots today on this 747 flight are captain oliver hardy and assisting will be FO stan laurel.Have a safe flight
 
CRJboy
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 5:24 pm

Every time we arrive in an airport and i say "For your safety and the safety of those around you..." everyone starts unbucling.....one time we really came hard toa stop and i saw someones face crush up agaisnt the seta in frotn of them...i waited till everyone left to start bursting out laughing....you do not unbuckle your seatbelt while you are in a active taxiway...period. If the seatbelt sign is on..remain seated... Smile
 
jonty
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:57 pm

Although I do agree with the fact that for safety you should keep your seatbelt fastened, when I was on a Air China Flight to PEK from LHR and on the return leg I was on a school trip of 25 ppl, so everyone got up and wandered about - it was the longest flight anyone had been on I think, i even went and sat in the isle next to my friends seat to do a crossword, and we sat on the stairs (it was a 747), and I even went and sat on the stewardess' seat to talk to one of my friends trapped in his seat by a sleeping Chinese person!
It is easy to stay seated for most of the flight on a shot haul flight, but it does get boring sitting in your seat for hours, especially when the films were in Chinese, and your friends are in random places in the cabin!

Although when on the ground its just common sense to keep your seat belt fastened, i mean, they tell you to do it, and they don't just say that for no reason! When on a flight from NCL to Fuerteventura (sorry, i dno't know the code) apart from having the hardest landing of my experience, the F/A had to tell twice and then shout at a man through the intercom for him to sit down as we were still decelerating on the runway, the reversers had only just shut off! stupid or what?

[Edited 2004-08-21 12:02:32]
 
TUNisia
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:37 am

A funny thing happened to me a few weeks ago while flying FCO-JFK on AA. There was an area of clouds ahead and the pilot told the FA's to stop the pre-arrival snack service and to be seated.. yet people were still getting up to use the lavs. Amazing! Are these people deaf? Thankfully it wasn't that bad when we flew through the clouds, probably because we gained some altitude, as I heard the engines roar.

TUNisia
Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
 
greasespot
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:31 am

Actually most cockpit crew HAVE to wear their seat belts. What they can and do is release the shoulder straps. The waist belt is securely fastened. Atleast on the flights I have jump seated.

Greasespot
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:42 am

I might get slapped in my e-face for this, but...

It might be a cultural thing. Having lived in Portugal for some years now, I am still shocked everyday by the absolute disregard of Portuguese for safety procedures. If I wear a safety belt in a taxi, people will tell me I shouldn't as it is safer anyway in the city (oh really) and that the driver is a good driver. Also, when flying, Portuguese passengers will always walk around much more than other passengers. Although they're a friendly lot, I'd wish Portuguese would have more sense of responsibility. To not have your seatbelt fastened 10 mins before landing is just asking for trouble, sorry.
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
md11dude
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:56 am

Always wear em belts at least loosly....never know when a good case of CAT could sneak up and kick you in your sorry butt....

dk
CP979
 
BizFlyer
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:23 am

>>>Unbuckling your seat belts? What about the concept of the airliner as a flying cruiseship, aka A380, with: lounges, bars, spas, pools, showers, duty free shops, bowling alleys, etc.?<<<

Leelaw,

the same thought had occurred to me too, and I really wonder in what kind of dreamworld the adverstising managers of Airbus or their customers live...

Apart from that I have observed on several long haul trips between AMS and Asia with KLM that at least in Business-class almost all pax remain belted.

Problem is that most pax have no access to publications like "Flight International" where you find every half year a statistic giving you what kind of incidents (fatal and non-fatal, with and without injuries) had been reported worldwide.
If any of the "unbucklers" would know how many people get hurt every year in CAT and how many planes stick their nose into the terminal-buildings or have to make an emergency-braking on the runway, they would reconsider their actions.

I think that if a passenger would be unbuckled despite seatbelt sign being on and then he hurts me because he falls on me, I would sue this person for damages!!!

Greetings from

Andreas Damm
Buxtehude, Germany
Stay belted as long as you can!
 
andz
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:27 am

What about the concept of the airliner as a flying cruiseship, aka A380, with: lounges, bars, spas, pools, showers, duty free shops, bowling alleys, etc.?

Let's be realistic here, the 380 is going to be chock full of fare paying seats, the rest is bullshit.

After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:27 am

I was watching the (not excellent) news channel "SIC Noticias", that reported extensively on the incident. They gave a lot of attention obviously to the question why two planes could have come so close, and then started interviewing some of the passengers on that flight, some of which were still in hospital then. The seatbelt question never came up. Apparently it is to be taken for granted that passengers do not wear seatbelts... The TV had a "wonderful" computer animation showing passengers flying to the ceiling - who expects people to obey rules anyway?!
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
Vimanav
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:39 am

I vote for all those who keep their seat belts fastened throughout the flight. There may be accidents where wearing a seatbelt may not necessarily protect you from injury or death but as somebody once said.. "Trust in God but keep your powder dry".

Staying unbuckled during critical phases of the flight stems from another of my favorite quotes which is something like "man believes in all but his own mortality". There is too much of a feeling that this cannot happen to me. It may not be just the Portuguese but I've seen them all over the place. I've seen passengers already jumping up and taking down stuff from the over head bins seconds after touchdown and then falling like nine-pins as the airplane braked.

Idiots all !!!

Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:43 am

What about the concept of the airliner as a flying cruiseship, aka A380, with: lounges, bars, spas, pools, showers, duty free shops, bowling alleys, etc.?

Well said Andz,

That's a load of BS!

us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
TAP1972
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:43 am

Luisde8cd

I guess no one has answered you, TAP was flying from Lis to Terceira Island in the Azores. The other plane was flying from Terceira to Cascais (near Lisbon).

Also, the TAP aircraft was under the military air traffic control as Terceira airport is a military US base which also serves civil aviation.

Regarding the seat belt discussion, I think all the companies warn in the beginning of the flight when they show the safety instructions video, that the passengers must fasten the seat belts when the sign is on and whenever they remain seated during the flight. Hope some people have learnt their lesson. Moreover the Portuguese Agriculture Ministry was on the flight and didn't suffer any injuries because he had his seat belt fasten.
 
redngold
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:41 am

I think there's a couple of airlines here in the U.S. which actually have written policies about passengers keeping their seatbelts fastened while seated, regardless of whether the seatbelt light is illuminated. I've heard that almost every time I've flown, in recent memory - on Continental, Northwest, Southwest, and Delta.


redngold
Up, up and away!
 
fspilot747
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RE: TAP A310 In Near Miss - Pax Injured

Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:04 am

I'm all military when it comes to airplanes  Big grin. I sit up straight, don't recline, seatbelt on, and read a book or magazine whilst stirring the straw around my drink or reading a magazine. I just feel sloppy without the seatbelt and everything messy. Maybe I'm just a neatfreak.

Sometimes I'll loosen up and when I'm really tired and wanna sleep.

Like mentioned above, no reason to not have your seatbelts on up there, folks. It's not like you're tied in with 5 straps around your body. It's a waistbelt, easy to keep on. It's funny to watch people unbuckle it and leave it there, as if the mere act of unbuckling it is a source of relief somehow.


My 0.02 + Tax.

[Edited 2004-08-22 23:05:19]