b727fan
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:54 am

EWR Take Offs Vs Landings

Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:07 am

I was wondering how come planes taking off from EWR immediately bank eastward, then shortly after bank westward or continue on. I realize that the airspace between EWR, JFK & LGA is a tight one, but on approaches, the planes line up miles away heading "straight" for the runway. Can someone explain why the take offs are in "S" patterned climb while the landings don't seem to mind the straight approach?! Thanks.
 
JBLUA320
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RE: EWR Take Offs Vs Landings

Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:21 am

Hey

Im pretty sure you infact did answer your own questions. As the three major airports share the same airspace around the Metro area, each must be in accordance with the other 2s operations.

Its like a puzzle- when one airport uses one runway, the other two have to fit their operations so that their planes stay clear of the others traffic.

It could be for noise abatement, but I highly doubt that.

JBLU
 
spacecadet
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RE: EWR Take Offs Vs Landings

Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:35 am

All airports have standard instrument departures (SIDS) and standard approaches (STARS). The three NYC area airports have to have coordinated SIDS/STARS as JBLUA320 mentioned, so this is probably the reason. I looked at the EWR SIDS, which you can see yourself at http://www.airnav.com/airport/ewr and I think I see the S-turn you're talking about in both departure charts - there's nothing in the narrative about it (page two) so I would think it's probably just for traffic separation purposes. If it was for an obstruction or noise abatement it would probably say so in the narrative.
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timz
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RE: EWR Take Offs Vs Landings

Sat Aug 21, 2004 8:03 am

It's impossible to see how the initial left turn off of runway 22, or the initial right turn off of runway 4, would help with traffic separation. Much of the time LGA arrivals are over the Hudson River at 4000 ft; the departures are turning toward them. I'd say it's unquestionably for noise abatement and nothing else.
 
JBLUA320
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RE: EWR Take Offs Vs Landings

Sat Aug 21, 2004 8:37 am

Timz,

Id wager a bet that it is definately unrelated to noise abatement. TLC did a show with the Port Authority some time ago specifically on this subject- I wish I could find it!

JBLU
 
AAR90
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RE: EWR Take Offs Vs Landings

Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:55 am

The S-turn is to put the EWR departing acft inside its "climb corridor" to not interfer with both inbound and outbound traffic from any of the area's airports. If all is well, you won't be stopped at 5,000' for very long (if at all).
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
PHLapproach
Posts: 1054
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RE: EWR Take Offs Vs Landings

Sat Aug 21, 2004 11:45 am

The Mariner Two Departure Procedure (DP) off 4L/4R calls for a 060 heading then at I-EZA 4 DME turn left 290, climb maintain 2,500....Thence. On a Mariner Two DP for 22L/22R it's a initial left turn to 190, once crossing I-LSQ 2.3 DME turn right to 220, climb maintain 2500....Thence.

Now the Newark Seven DP basically calls for the same things as Mariner Two on both ends. Although for 22L/22R departures should expect Radar Vectors Direct LANNA, Sparta (SAX), or Pottstown (PTW).

These DP's are specifically designed for traffic to stay out of the surrounding airports LGA, JFK's airspace. Why do you think the Canarie Climb (CRI) DP was created.... for traffic to not go into LGA's airspace.
 
trickijedi
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RE: EWR Take Offs Vs Landings

Sat Aug 21, 2004 11:52 am

I've noticed the eastbound turn and then west for some LGA departures as well. Just thought I'd bring it up here in case they may be related.
Its better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Fly safe!
 
sdkualeb
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:13 pm

RE: EWR Take Offs Vs Landings

Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:52 am

IT KEEP THE AIRTRAFFIC AWAY FROM THE RESIDENTUAL AREA'S OF Elizabeth AND NEWARK, DEPENDING ON THE RUNWAY USED. IF YOU NOTICE THAT MOST OF THE TAKE Offs ARE OVER PORT ELIZABETH.
 
cicadajet
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 1:54 am

RE: EWR Take Offs Vs Landings

Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:50 am

Yes, noise abatement is an issue with the initial left turn off of 22.

- Tom

 
WindowSeat
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RE: EWR Take Offs Vs Landings

Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:52 am

First off, this has everything to do with noise abatement and citizens' concerns than anything else. It does not really have any bearing on entering any of the other airspaces as mentioned by some.

Both runway 22 departures at EWR call for immediate heading changes to get the aircraft over the water as opposed to the land for noise abatement. While in the early 80s and before the FAA introduced the Expanded East Coast Plan (EECP) in the 90s the bearing change from the initial 190 turn to the 220 happened a little later than 2.3 DME which was then pulled back to the current 2.3 DME due to noise concerns over the Staten Island area. Newark also has take off minimums of at least 410 ft climb rate to minimize noise.

These DP's are specifically designed for traffic to stay out of the surrounding airports LGA, JFK's airspace. Why do you think the Canarie Climb (CRI) DP was created.... for traffic to not go into LGA's airspace.

I agree that the turns to 290 (rwy 4s) and the 220 turn (rwy 22s) is indeed to get out of each others airspaces, but I think the question was, why the initial turn to 060 (rwy 4s) and 190 (rwy 22s)? If at all these turns put traffic closer to LGA.

Since the EECP, when introduced, did not take into consideration traffic below 3000' these procedures have stayed. Apparently there were tests conducted by the FAA on straight-out departures at EWR and there are allegations that the findings were destroyed. There is a lot of political wrangling that took place of EWR's departures and the saga still continues. Until a decision is reached, these procedures are here to stay.

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