7LBAC111
Topic Author
Posts: 2427
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:17 am

ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:19 pm

Following on from the threads about ATA and the sale of slots at MDW,
the following is published on Airwise. (http://news.airwise.com/stories/2004/08/1093378912.html)

According to the FT, the Indianapolis-based airline is also seeking buyers for its more than 30 Boeing 737-800 jets. AirTran Airways and Mesa Airlines are "among those understood to be interested,"

7LBAC111

Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
mauriceb
Posts: 2150
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:50 am

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:45 pm

wow, that doesn't sound very well, but if they don't have money i doubt they could ever start op USA-EU routes because you have to have some money to set new long range routes up..who may be the buyer? Air tran? AA? DL? CO.... we just have to wait...



greetings maurice
 
Byrdluvs747
Posts: 2375
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:25 am

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Wed Aug 25, 2004 8:07 pm


According to the FT, the Indianapolis-based airline is also seeking buyers for its more than 30 Boeing 737-800 jets. AirTran Airways and Mesa Airlines are "among those understood to be interested,"


I don't understand. What would Mesa do with so many mainline jets as well as gates? Go independent like Indy? Charters?
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
GSPSPOT
Posts: 2171
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:44 am

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Wed Aug 25, 2004 8:37 pm

Isn't MDW ATA's major flight hub? I would think they could get rid of peripheral flights/stations rather than dismantle a (profitable?) hub...
Finally made it to an airline mecca!
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Wed Aug 25, 2004 8:46 pm

If I'm understanding the article correctly here (and I have little reason to believe that I am not), my understanding is that they are selling their ENTIRE FLEET of 737-800's...my question is, how do they expect to have the feed to fill up all of their 757-200's and 757-300's without the Midway operation...their 752's are configured to seat 200 passengers, their 753's 247 (this is without business class, so it can be assumed that those numbers will be slightly less)...according to their current schedule (not a great estimate, but with half of their fleet and their largest hub leaving the system, a decent estimate), many of their stations would be leaving the fleet, and in fact, their route network would include only:

CUN-LAX (67)
CUN-SFO (6)
FLL-IND (Daily)
RSW-IND (1x 3, 2x X3)
HNL-LAX (Daily)
HNL-SFO (2x Daily)
HNL-SEA (Daily)
IND-LAS (1x 6, 2x X467, 3x 47)
IND-LAX (X6)
IND-LGA (2x Daily)
IND-MCO (2x Daily)
IND-PHX (Daily)
IND-SFO (X6)
IND-SRQ (X4)
IND-PIE (2x Daily)
OGG-LAX (Daily)
OGG-PHX (16)
OGG-SFO (Daily)
LIH-LAX (6)
LIH-SFO (6)
LGA-SFO (6)
LGA-PIE (Daily)
MCO-SJU (2x Daily)

Now, obviously this is only a small amount of what their operation would look like, as they would still have 30 or so planes to fly (for whatever reason, as far as I can find, their numbers of aircraft of each type is nowhere to be found), and those planes obviously would need to go somewhere, but it is fairly clear from this information that their operation would only be a shell of what their current operation is, and that they would likely have trouble with the feed from these routes...the obvious question here is, why aren't they selling their 757's and keeping their slightly smaller 737-800's (currently configured to seat 175), the less obvious question is, where are the extra planes going to fly, and the most important question, to everybody involved, is are they going to survive...because as bad as it may seem for them right now, if they cut out the guts of their operation (namely the MDW hub), the problems that they currently have are only going to magnify...

Disclaimer: This is an extremely amateur analysis of the business model of an airline that I have never flown. Please do not take this to your local stock broker demanding to sell your shares in ATA Holdings, Corp., and likewise, please do not come suing me if you sell their shares and they manage to rebound. Additionally, please comment on this analysis as you feel free, as I will most certainly not be insulted if somebody finds a flaw in my thinking.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
drerx7
Posts: 4204
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 12:19 am

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:25 pm

It is my understanding that they will be focusing on the charter business in which they started in--similar to Sun Country albeit larger.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
LGA777
Posts: 954
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 12:46 am

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:35 pm

Since the article says more than 30 737-800's I thought I would mention the fleet count is now at 33, the last one delivered (N333TZ) is shown here !


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ron Peel



Good luck to the employees of ATA

LGA777
 
leelaw
Posts: 4520
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:52 pm

You can't "sell" what you don't own. TZ "owns" only 13 of the 33 738s it operates, the remainder are leased. That's part of it's financial problem, the relatively high rates paid on the leased aircraft. Likewise with the MDW gates. The City of Chicago owns them (Lessor), TZ has a longterm proprietary lease (Lessee) which gives them the exclusive right to use those gates. Any assignment (transfer of the balance of the lease term) of the leases by the Lessee to third parties or successor owners undoubtedly requires approval of the Lessor. It's not easy to predict what position the City of Chicago will take in the case of either bulk or piecemeal assignment of TZ's leases. An article in the Indiana Business Journal quotes the spokesman for the Chicago Department of Aviation saying: "...that the city has the right to re-claim and re-allocate ATA's gates if the airline pulls out of Midway." All of the articles I've read in the mainstream media contain significant factual or technical errors. What else is new.

[Edited 2004-08-25 15:15:47]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:12 pm

I don't understand. What would Mesa do with so many mainline jets as well as gates? Go independent like Indy? Charters?

I read in Fortune the CEO is considering running an ultra-low cost airline. What that means, I'm not sure. I guess it could be anywhere from WN to FR.

Personally, if I were the CEO, I would try my hand running a USA 3000 type operation. My main focus is on charter work, but I have four to six 738s to run IND-CUN, IND-PIE, IND-AUA, EWR-AUA, IND-MIA and IND-SJU. Most of the 757s stick around and fly charters.

AAndrew
 
latinaviation
Posts: 1162
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:25 pm

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:17 pm

Personally, if I were the CEO, I would try my hand running a USA 3000 type operation.

USA 3000 works extremely well because they are vertically integrated with Apple Vacations and their labrynth tourism network. By owning USA 3000, Apple (in many cases) has control over distribution (travel agents), product (Apple Vacation), air transportation (airline), ground transportation (motorcoach companies in DR and Mexico) and hotel (AMResorts). They run the whole gamut.
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:39 am

USA 3000 is also efficient (on paper) because the scheduled flights will turn flights to charters, and so forth... so your plane doesn't have any dead-head legs.

-n
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
Posts: 474
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:27 pm

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:52 am

I wish AS would jump on this....
 
col
Posts: 1692
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:11 am

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:06 am

The leases on the 738's are probably easier to move on than the 752/753's, hence the 738's going.

Just my thoughts

Col
 
ifly2eat
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:18 am

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:33 am

Reuters
ATA denies plans to exit Chicago Midway airport
Wednesday August 25, 2:04 pm ET
By Jui Chakravorty


NEW YORK, Aug 25 (Reuters) - ATA Airlines, which is grappling with a liquidity crisis, said it has no plans to leave Chicago's Midway International Airport, even as industry experts speculated on Wednesday it plans to sell its gates there.

The Indianapolis-based airline, the largest carrier at Midway Airport, said in a federal filing last week that barring changes to its aircraft lease agreements, it does not expect to have enough cash to meet those obligations in the first quarter of 2005.

ATA Holdings Corp. (NasdaqNM:ATAH - News) said in a statement on Tuesday night that the carrier is busy restructuring its finances. "While engaged in that effort, we are not abandoning Chicago Midway, nor are we canceling any flights," said George Mikelsons, chairman and chief executive.

The airline declined to comment further on Wednesday.

"Not abandoning doesn't mean they won't sell some gates," said Michael Boyd, an aviation consultant at the Boyd Group. "They might be pulling down some operations, but not pulling out."

Boyd, who said ATA is "definitely" looking at selling gates at Midway, added that Southwest Airlines (NYSE:LUV - News) would most likely buy those gates. "They are ATA's boldest competitor at Midway. And if anyone else bought the gates, they would have to take on Southwest head-on," he said. "No one would want to do that."

ATA also said in the filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission that it might sell some assets.

The airline has been aggressively cutting costs in the past year to cope with falling fares, soaring jet fuel prices and declining demand for its military charter flights.

"I think the outlook for ATA is bleak," said Alok Makhija, deputy head of research at DebtTraders, a New York dealer of high-yield and distressed debt. "They are trying to sell their Midway assets. They will have trouble getting full price for them, because people know the airline is going through a tough time."

"People know that if the company doesn't sell the assets, it will probably file for bankruptcy, where the assets could be for sale for even cheaper," Makhija said.

Chicago's aviation department said ATA currently leases 14 gates at Midway. "They have preferential leases on their gates, which means if ATA reduces or ceases operations at Midway, then the city can reclaim the gates and reallocate them to other airlines," the department said in a statement.

Fulcrum Global Partners analyst Susan Donofrio told Reuters in an interview on Tuesday that ATA plans to sell its assets at Midway. "They shopped it to Southwest specifically," she said.

Southwest Airlines declined to comment.

ATA is also trying to transfer the leases on its more than 30 Boeing 737-800 jets, Makhija said. "But once they transfer the leases, they will not be able to use the planes, and the 737-800's are the best aircraft for ATA's business. So transferring the leases will reduce obligations in the short term, but could harm the business in the long term," he said.

ATA Holdings shares were off 6 cents or 2.2 percent at $2.65 on Wednesday afternoon on the Nasdaq.

"My feeling is that ATA is now headed in a different direction," Boyd said. "They will probably pull out scheduled service, refocus on Las Vegas, and other chartered markets."



Fly the friendly skys and stay out of mine.
 
Byrdluvs747
Posts: 2375
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:25 am

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:06 am

Don't companies always say things like this to keep their stock prices from dropping.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Posts: 9042
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:10 pm

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:55 am

again, as pointed out in another thread

ATA Holdings Corp. (NasdaqNM:ATAH - News) said in a statement on Tuesday night that the carrier is busy restructuring its finances. "While engaged in that effort, we are not abandoning Chicago Midway, nor are we canceling any flights," said George Mikelsons, chairman and chief executive.

In other words, they are still searching for a lifeline, but if they dont find one, all bets are off...
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:21 am

"We are not abandoning Chicago Midway....", but it DOES NOT say we are not going to do a regress at MDW.
I am hearing ATA wants out of the scheduled service and go back to charters. That's where they made the bucks before the new Boeings showed up. Remember, ATA got the Boeings ordered BEFORE 9-11 when deals were at a premium. After 9-11 its lets make a deal on planes, leased or purchased.
safe
e
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
behramjee
Posts: 4325
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Thu Aug 26, 2004 9:42 am

Its highly unlikely that any North American and European airline is going to purchase ATAs B 738s because of their financial situations.

Airlines that I feel would be interested in ATAs B 738s are :

1. Malaysian...because they need to replace their B 734s and the B 738s seems to be the ideal replacement both range and capacity wise. They have over 3 dozen B 734s so they can try and buy off these B 738s which are 2-3 years old only at a very good rate.

2. Thai Airways...they too need B 738s in the near future to replace their B 734s, they can also use B 738s to start a low cost airline.

3. Virgin Blue...if engines of ATAs B 738s match that of Virgin Blue then it would be a viable option for Branson's airline to pursue if they still want to expand Australian domestic flights or start as rumored a new low cost airline in CHINA and INDIA.
 
trickijedi
Posts: 3201
Joined: Sun May 13, 2001 4:35 pm

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Thu Aug 26, 2004 10:31 am

I wouldn't be surprised if one of their planes ends up on Ebay.:D They sound desperate to get rid of them.
Its better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Fly safe!
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6175
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Thu Aug 26, 2004 10:41 am

If the engines of TZ's 738's match those of AM's planes then AM might be interested in a couple of them too.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Posts: 9042
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:10 pm

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Thu Aug 26, 2004 10:43 am

there is no engine choice on the 73NG family, one make is all you get
 
PIA777
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:39 am

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Thu Aug 26, 2004 10:45 am

That really sticks. I would like to See ATA stay in MDW and do well.

PIA777
GO CUBS!!
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2563
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:15 pm

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:42 pm

Behramjee,
TG's 734 are only 5/6 years old. Hardly old. Perhaps for expansion.
I doubt MH would buy second-hand aircraft although of late they have been acquiring some 333/332s.

Any of the Chinese airlines, I would have to say, is the best chance, if ATA is putting any up for sale. Chinese are purchasing many of the newer second-hand aircraft around the world.
 
ifly2eat
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:18 am

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:13 pm

Once again the armchair "experts" have spoken. It is freakin hilarious. I have a college degree in this stuff, work for ATA, and I do not know what is going to happen. I am sure am glad you putzes do!
Fly the friendly skys and stay out of mine.
 
behramjee
Posts: 4325
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Thu Aug 26, 2004 9:22 pm

Can someone plz confirm the exact year that TG ordered its B 734s and received them as obviously Carpethhead thinks that I would believe him when saying that TG started having B 734s from 1999 onwards!!!

Its more like 1990-92 range I would think so.
 
PVD757
Posts: 3021
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:23 pm

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Thu Aug 26, 2004 11:27 pm

On another board, I read that the head honcho over at Mesa approached their pilot rep at a meeting about possible 733 wage scales in case the marketplace changes dramatically in the next 6 -12 months. I thought they were just talking about a possible liquidation of US. I guess Mesa really does want to spent the $200 million they have sitting around after not acquiring Indy last year. I still believe someone on the east coast still needs to go under for the rest to survive...................
 
behramjee
Posts: 4325
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Fri Aug 27, 2004 12:33 am

Macdaddy...for your information, MALAYSIAN AIRLINES many many months ago put a tender to AIRBUS and BOEING to propose their offers for A 320s and B 738s to replace entirely MASs B 734 fleet.

Secondly...there is no guess work involved for TG-MAS especially...both have B 734s dating from 1990s onwards and will be replaced within 2-3 years just like ANAs B 737 Classic-A 320 fleet is with B 737-700s.

 
SUPRAZACHAIR
Posts: 474
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:27 pm

RE: ATA To Sell More Than 30 Of Its 737-800s

Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:16 am

Its highly unlikely that any North American and European airline is going to purchase ATAs B 738s because of their financial situations.

Except maybe AS.  Big grin I just don't want to wait until Feb 05 see a wingletted eskimo.