Joni
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Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Fri Aug 27, 2004 5:54 pm


I just noticed this, I don't recall seeing it before:

http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/040827/transport_airbus_thailand_1.html
 
 
maddy
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Fri Aug 27, 2004 8:33 pm

 
NYC777
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Fri Aug 27, 2004 9:37 pm

Old news. This was something that everyone knew was going to happen. What is surprising is the order for 6 772ER. This week Boeing got orders for 24 777. Way to go B!
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
ka
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Fri Aug 27, 2004 9:55 pm

Nyc777:
The news for 6 777 were as old as the news for the Airbus order as they were announced at the same time after the board´s approval.

KA.


(Edited for spelling)

[Edited 2004-08-27 14:56:07]
Keep smiling - you might be on Radar!
 
Sjoerd
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:18 pm

Also check out the computer designed pictures of the TG A380 on the Airbus website, they are very well done !
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
Tasha
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:22 pm

Personally, I would think it wise to wait until the A380 flies to order. If it does not perform as expected, which is entirely possible, it will be a fiasco of the highest order. Not only for the airlines in question, but for Airbus especially; a dramatic failure may even mean the end of Airbus all together.

What is known about the A380 is that it is currently having issues with weight and fuel consumption (projected). While I have no doubt that these will either be solved or reduced to the point of insignificance eventually, they are still problems that need to be addressed. The airlines are looking at the bottom dollar in everything.

I wish Airbus and the A380 well. I am VERY skeptical about it's performance. One thing that can be said for certain is: That there will by no bars, gyms, movie theaters, nurseries, shopping malls, or anything else of that nature. What the aircraft will have is lots of economy class seats squeezed as tightly as is possible. What would you say to a 3+4+4 configuration?

Lets take a minute to remember the MD11. This aircraft delivered or surpassed every design goal (except range and fuel consumption). I love to fly in it, and have on many occasions. It is one of the most comfortable aircraft... Yet it was only a marginal success. The A380 better be more than just marginal; If the A380 is even a marginal success, it will be branded publicly as a dismal failure regardless of how advanced an aircraft it is.

All this talk of a sidestick vs. Control yoke is so totally irrelevant in the long run. If Airbus (or Boeing) were really smart, they would offer both. The airlines would be able to choose if they wanted a yoke or stick. Who cares, as it's all digitally driven anyhow; we're not speaking of B707s and DC-8s.

My prediction: Thai will be able to use it's A380 fleet in only the most restricted routes. If this plane flies at 75% capacity as a norm - it will be a total failure - and this cannot be stressed enough.

Why do you think the B747 was withdrawn from many of its former routes and replaced by smaller aircraft? Overcapacity. This is exactly what will happen with the A380. It will be efficient and profitable: NYC - LON or NYC - FRA, perhaps even LON - MIA... but other than that it will be too large. If you have 450 seats, with only 350 occupied... you are not being profitable.

Just my thoughts...

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

 
ka
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:30 pm

Tasha:
Your A380-bashing is wishful thinking. Forget it.

KA.
Keep smiling - you might be on Radar!
 
Tasha
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:34 pm

KA:

Your blind faith in the A380 is foolish a best... I think it is the wrong plane at the wrong time. I'm not bashing it at all. I would love to take a ride in one.

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:57 pm

If this plane flies at 75% capacity as a norm - it will be a total failure - and this cannot be stressed enough.

Well, Airbus would have to very far off their projections for your prophecy to ring true. Airbus is predicting a 58% breakeven load factor...that may be a bit optimistic but still it should be well under 70%.

BTW, SQ has already committed to starting service with the A380 with less than 500 pax. They will have more than enough room to offer some new types of services...I doubt we'll see swimming pools though! The worst Thai could do is put 3-4-3 in economy on the main deck...same as the 747.

And finally, IMHO the MD-11 was not a mediocre success, it was a dismal failure as a pax aircraft. MD had almost a five year advantage on the Boeing 777 and with all the missed expectations they completely lost their customer's trust and never recovered even though the PIP improved performance close to the original projected range.

[Edited 2004-08-27 16:01:09]
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:26 pm

Tasha: your denial of Airbus bashing would be more convincing if you hadn't got
"A fool and his money are quickly parted by the Airbus Corp" posted on your profile page!
 
Tasha
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:30 pm

"Tasha: your denial of Airbus bashing would be more convincing if you hadn't got
"A fool and his money are quickly parted by the Airbus Corp" posted on your profile page! "

Perhaps so..... LOL  Big thumbs up

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
bennett123
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:17 am

Tasha

I think that your ill will towards Airbus in general and the A380 in particular may be premature. Are you saying that no US airliner, which had development problems was not ultimately a success.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the A380 flies next year.

You may think that a worldwide Boeing monopoly would be a good thing, personally I think that having at least competitors is in the interests of airlines and passengers.

I see no reason why the A380 and B7E7 should not both succeed.
 
Tasha
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:31 am

Bennett:

"I see no reason why the A380 and B7E7 should not both succeed."

Neither do I, as both are facinating aircraft. I think however that the A380 is too large for the current market. As far as a "world wide Boeing monopoly"...  Big thumbs up No, actually competition is a good thing, and I wish Airbus well. Personally, I would have much preferred them to produce a better A340 variant as that type is in wide service.

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Scorpio
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:34 am

Tasha, quick question: Do you also think airlines should wait to order the 7E7 until the plane flies? After all, that could go horribly wrong as well, with all the new technology...
 
Tasha
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:57 am

Scorpio... the answer is... YES & NO,

The diffrence is that the 7E7 could operate many more, and far more diverse routes than the A380 profitably. Would it be a bad idea for LH, BA, or NW to buy A380's to fly the North Atlantic at this point in time - no it would not. But the real question is: Can they fill the aircraft. Can Emirates? Can JAL? Who knows...

What I do know, is that the 7E7 is far easier to fill than the A380.

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:12 am

Even if there is a downturn in the world economy, air travel will still increase, after a slight blip, as it has done since airlines started carrying passengers. What makes Tasha think that air travel will decrease, which is what she is implying by saying there is no real market for the A380?
 
Gary2880
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:16 am

far as im conserned the 7e7 is a 757 with diffrent paint, atleast the A380 is offering something totaly diffrent, the 7e7 maybe more fule efficiant but has the same capasity as a 767 a330 757 i guess, doesnt seam anything special to me
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
airbus3801
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:20 am

Tasha,

So this could be make our brake for Airbus, the 747 had so many more problems then the A380 will. The A380's compacity is good right now because less aircraft are needed to fly pax to the same place. A bus (the actually driving one, not an "bus" as in airbus) will just about do the same thing. The 7E7 could be a disaster for Boeing as well so you shouldn't be so quick to judge it as a better a/c then the A380.

Nick Airbus3801

P.S. In economy a 4-4-3 configuration is absurd.

Yes and Airbus does rule
 
AvObserver
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:52 pm

Gary2880, I'll cut you some slack due to your age but it seems you're not aware the 7E7 design will be set well apart from prior BCA jets of similar capacity due to its unprecented 50% by weight composite construction and new generation fuel-efficient engines which, due to the airplane's electric, rather than hyudraulic systems, will be of a new, 'bleedless' design which will increase efficiency. Like the A380, it's a fairly major technological leap in new materials and systems. Sure it may not look much different on the outside but many of its aspects will be fairly revolutionary, pushing the design envelope in many ways, further than ever before. All of Boeing's future airliner designs are likely to be based on this new approach and assembly methods. Airbus took a fair leap forward in these regards, as well, but conceptually, the A380 isn't all that different from what has been offered before, largely a 30% scale-up of the 747 with FBW and more advanced systems. Let's keep things in the proper, balanced perspective.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:58 pm

More idiocy from Thai Airways management.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
bennett123
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:04 pm

Aaron747

Sorry I don't follow you.

Are you saying that Thai International is mis managed?.

Evidence please.
 
Udo
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:14 pm

Aaron,

as far as I know Thai is a profitable airline...and the A380 will boost their profits on routes such as BKK-LHR, BKK-FRA or BKK-SYD.

My advice for you:
1. before using the expression "mismanagement" or "idiocy" for Thai Airways, take a look at some loss making US airlines first
2. check Thai's timetable along with aircraft types used and frequencies
3. if you are not able to provide ANY arguments, better keep your doubtful one-sentence-statements for you


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:59 pm

3-4-4 seating is absurd, however, 3-5-3 seating seems likely. After all, TG already have 3-4-3 seating on their B777-200s.
 
Mark_D.
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:30 pm

It's amazing how much ongoing trolling still goes on around here about the good ol' A380. LOL, Tasha -- maybe just get used to the thing


Capacity-wise it's just not that big a step up from a 744 -- especially considering how many passengers get packed aboard 744s on Japanese domestic routes like Tokyo-Sapporo, for instance.
 
Tasha
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:28 pm

Mark D,

Well if any critical word about the A380, or perhaps Airbus in general, is "trolling"; then I guess I am guilty of it. I still think, and will continue to do so, that the A380 is the wrong aircraft for the time and that Airbus is the corporate dreamer if they think that they will sell 1500+ of these aircraft which are not really ideal for all but the most restricted routes.

Zvezad:

Perhaps the 3+4+4 seating is absurd, but it is still not as painful as 3+5+3 which I know some airlines will fit. God wouldn't it be nice to be in that dead center seat???  Yeah sure If TG is already using 3+4+3 on the 772, then your right about possibility of 3+5+3 and the squish that it will cause. If TG wants to get really creative and make it really painful for the passengers then lets see a 5+2+5  Acting devilish

As far as the 772: I flew on a CO 772 from EWR to IAH (4:30pm flight, CO51 I think it was) and the seating was 3+3+3. It was fabulous!!!

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

[Edited 2004-08-28 15:29:21]
 
Vimanav
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:23 pm

All said and done, I do see some merits in Tasha's arguments. The trend is towards smaller aircraft with greater frequencies. The B744 is by no means outdated aircraft but do we not see airlines actually struggling to fill them in consistently 365 days a year in the current scenario? I think the trend towards introducing very large capacity aircraft in the hope that they will be filled in consistently by airlines is rather wishful.

The second great fallacy in my opinion currently in the airline business is the tendency to have more and more non-stops over incredible distances (yes I'm talking of SQ and their SIN-EWR/LAX vv flights). In the first case people are going to get sick of sitting in a plane for 18hrs and unless somebody can get them that distance in say a maximum of 10-12hrs (with a supersonic or perhaps a high subsonic aircraft) people are going to opt for one stop services in the long run.

just my 2 cents...

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
Tasha
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:42 pm

Udo:

"My advice for you:
1. before using the expression "mismanagement" or "idiocy" for Thai Airways, take a look at some loss making US airlines first"

Just because your airline (or any other business) isn't making a profit - it doesn't have to be mismanaged. After all, didn't Lufthansa just post it's first profit in a long time?


2880...

"well, thanks for cutting me some slack as you put it, please dnt bring age into it i wouldnt if you were senile or something, as briliant as all its fancy new assets maybe but being fickle, i cant photograph its bleedless hydrolic electrics, also cant photograph how little fule it uses, what i will be photographing is something that looks pratically the same as a 757, where as a A380, i would be photographing a wow... as fasinateing the 7E7s intimmers may be they couldnt consern me as i wouldnt get to fiddle around with one, only get to see whats on the outside"

Perhaps your age should be brought into it after reading the above. I quoted you directly because it is an example of immaturity and lack of education. If you speak of technical issues, do it properly - it you have no clue, then just leave it be. *shakes head*

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


[Edited 2004-08-28 16:46:48]
 
leelaw
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:00 am

Vimanav:

I'm a skeptic as well. The A380 fan club will tell you that the A380 concept isn't just about high capacity, but also improved passenger service in the form of improved seating, lounges, bars, duty free shops, spas, showers, pools, and bowling alleys, etc.. We'll see, VS the strongest proponent of the 'flying cruiseship" concept has deferred delivery of their big birds because the configuration they want will take more time to work out. I agree with you that the need for a 450+ passenger aircraft is extremely limited, probably less than 200 aircraft for the foreseeable future. IMO, there are no more than 10 routes worldwide which require that kind of capacity 365 days a year.

Cheers
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
Tasha
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:13 am

Leelaw:

Other than the "flying cruiseship concept", VS is a business out to make a profit. I think much of VS concepts are mirrors and smoke as their service is just as competent and any other major airline.

The only way the A380 will be profitable is that it is filled to capacity and operated frequently with great reliability. The only truly profitable routes I see for it are across the North Atlantic connecting New York to London and Frankfurt; inner-Japanese routes that are currently being served by 500 seat 747's... YES 500 seats in a 747! Amazing isn't it  Acting devilish ; and finally some very narrow trans Pacific routes like Tokyo - LAX. Other than that, there is really very little that an aircraft of such colossal size is efficient for.

Hmmm... The A380 will not even make a great freighter due to it's true double deck structure. If Airbus would have constructed a single deck, three aisle airliner... Something that could hold a configuration of 3+4+4+3 then it would have also made a fab freighter as well.

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

[Edited 2004-08-28 17:15:34]
 
donder10
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:16 am

I don't see the A380 being used on many Europe-North America routes at all.The trend has been for smaller aircraft and higher frequencies.
 
Ken777
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:56 am

The 380 should be a good plane for a lot of routes as long as the operational performance exceeds expectations. The important thing in my mind is that it needs to perform better than advertised to make it desirable on a lot or routes, even if only on a seasonal basis.

While the 380 may only need around a 60% load factor to break even there is a need to understand that it is a 12 month average load factor. Airlines may well need to make a lot of adjustments for seasonal variations, special events (like the Olympics) and changing economic conditions.

There will also be some interesting challenges for airlines. What about a situation where an airline has a flight to LHR with 280 pax going and 300 on the return flight. Do they use the 380 or change to a 747/777? I think that the 380 is going to present some new management challenges for airlines using them. Not necessarily a bad thing - just a step up in balancing aircraft availability with pax loads.
 
Vimanav
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:11 am

The only truly profitable routes I see for it are across the North Atlantic connecting New York to London and Frankfurt

Au contraire, over 80 percent of flights across the pond to the East coast from Europe are operated with twins.. the 767s beating the rest of the crowd hands down. Now where does an A380 fit into the scheme of things on such a sector which is dependent much more on frequency than capacity?

I could imagine routes ex Oz requiring A380 strength capacity as much as routes to the West coast from SIN besides maybe the internal Japanese routes. But even for the first two, a round the year requirement for such capacity is maybe a bit exaggerated.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:18 am

Tasha:

You're forgetting much more important things, such as slot-controlled LHR and FRA airports. A380 will be the KING of Kangaroo Route, as well as all those routes which fill 747s to their capacity and therefore are limited from further expansion. And while I have to agree with You on the fact, that Airbus will never sell 1500 of them, they will break even on it and they will make profit. I've said it before and I'll say again: expect a total production run of A380 being anywhere between 400 and 500 frames in next 15 - 20 years.
As far as weight and performance - those issues will be resolved one way or another. This project is simply too prestigious for AI to miss any performance data promised to its customers.
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
maddy
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:44 am

Tasha:
"After all, didn't Lufthansa just post it's first profit in a long time?"

But Lufthansa IS NOW MAKING PROFIT compared to some US Airlines which probably will never see profit again.

" inner-Japanese routes that are currently being served by 500 seat 747's... YES 500 seats in a 747! "

You can´t compare a single-class configured 747 with a three-class configured A380. An A380 can handle 800 pax. AMAZING: 800!!!!!!  Acting devilish

"The A380 will not even make a great freighter due to it's true double deck structure"

And is it too easy to understand that 2 decks can handle more freight than 1 deck?

Just read the facts before posting!
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:50 am

If you are on a crusade against Airbus you don't need facts - just blind faith in Boeing.
A vs. B. wars are getting soo boring...
 
leelaw
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:55 am

The two majors operators, BA and JL, out of the two largest slot-controlled airports, LHR and NRT, aren't going to fly the A380 anytime soon. Why? How many planes are currently flying daily between LHR-SYD/MEL?
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:03 am

BlueSky1976:
"You're forgetting much more important things, such as slot-controlled LHR and FRA airports. A380 will be the KING of Kangaroo Route"

FRA is getting a third runway. I think that means that LHR will soon be the only slot-controlled airport in Europe.

I think the B777-200LR will be king of the Kangaroo Route, as it will be able to serve LHR-SYD and LHR-MEL nonstop in both directions year-round.

If Boeing offers the B747Adv with a lower seat mile cost than the A380's, then I think Airbus may have difficulty breaking even on the latter.
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:03 am

Leelaw: I can bet on BA buying dozen or more A380 in next 5 - 10 years. Don't count JAL out either, since 747-600X is a history...

Zvezda:
"FRA is getting a third runway. I think that means that LHR will soon be the only slot-controlled airport in Europe."

So is LHR, even better - LHR is getting also T5, but it will still be a slot controlled airport. With FRA being congested as it is, I wouldn't bet on slot-control stoppage anytime soon...

"I think the B777-200LR will be king of the Kangaroo Route, as it will be able to serve LHR-SYD and LHR-MEL nonstop in both directions year-round."

777-200LR doesn't have capacity 747-400 or A380-800 have. If anything, it will do what SQ's A340-500 does on SIN-LAX and SIN-EWR runs: complement one-stop service.

"If Boeing offers the B747Adv with a lower seat mile cost than the A380's, then I think Airbus may have difficulty breaking even on the latter."

Once again, CAPACITY. AFAIK 747Adv will be a 450 seater, designed as a direct replacement of 747-400, while A380-800 is 550 seater.

[Edited 2004-08-28 19:13:05]
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
Vimanav
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:08 am

How many planes are currently flying daily between LHR-SYD/MEL?

Its a route where 744s have a 100% monopoly. 32 weekly flights (18QF/14BA) between LON/SYD and 19 weekly (12QF/7BA) LON/MEL

An A380 on the the Kanga routes have a number of justifications. But 43 A380s for EK (operating out of a powder keg of a region) is well...  Nuts

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
cessnalady
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:15 am

The A380 will not even make a great freighter due to it's true double deck structure. (Tasha)

Not true. Air freight is mostly carried out using standard format containers and pallets, all of them designed and built to conform to single-deck configurations. According to Boeing's own predictions, between now and 2017 this kind of volume (carried in this form) will grow 17% more than pax volumes...

So the A380F (330,000 Lbs payload) will be very suitable for this... If not, ask FedEx... I guess those folks know one or two things about air freight that you obviously don't... And what's more, I hear the 8 firm A380-800F orders they have placed are very likely to become 4 more very soon...

As Maddy said: 2 decks can handle more cargo better than one... For as long as they are correctly palletized and containerized, I would add...

Exceptionally larger or bulkier pieces (such as trucks, tanks, helicopters, assembly parts, etc.) are already well served by a well-offered market: From Hercules 130's to the fabulous An225 (and expect Airbus' A400M soon - the most powerful four engine turboprop ever designed).


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Marie

(Edited for typo)

[Edited 2004-08-28 19:19:44]
 
Tasha
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:21 am

Marie,

You might be right there, but I as far as I know also the placement and center of gravity is extremely important in an aircraft. I'm not saying that the A380 will not become a freighter with great lifting capabilities; I think it will not be as good as it could have been in a single deck configuration. I would imagine that it would be a bit difficult loading in a twin deck configuration. Also, had the A380 been designed with an exceptionally wide single deck, this would have also greatly facilitated it's use as a freighter.

But then again, the A380 is primarily designed to carry enormous loads of passengers to very distant places nonstop. I guess this comparison would be like comparing the B747 freighter to a C-5 and then wondering why the C-5 is the clear winner as it's a purpose built freighter.

I don't know if the A400 will be the most powerful turboprop however. Isn't the AN22 powered by the same 30000shp engines that power the Bear?


L410turbolet:

"If you are on a crusade against Airbus you don't need facts - just blind faith in Boeing."

Or dare I perhaps say blind faith in Airbus as is so often displayed here (when most here are on a crusade against Boeing). It seems to me that for the most part it is perfectly acceptable to constantly harp on Boeing, but no a critical word is to be said on Airbus. There are two sides to every issue and they have to be looked at in a whole.

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:28 am

Most freight is not outsize. It's palletized. So the 388 will do just fine.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
maddy
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:45 am

RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:36 am

"(when most here are on a crusade against Boeing)"

How often during the past weeks I read about "Airbus subsidies","A380 overweighted" and stuff like that and you want to tell me that the whole world is against Boeing?  Laugh out loud
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:27 am

BlueSky1976:
"So is LHR, even better - LHR is getting also T5, but it will still be a slot controlled airport. With FRA being congested as it is, I wouldn't bet on slot-control stoppage anytime soon..."

FRA is also getting another terminal. The US Air Force base on the other side of the current runways from the civilian terminals is due to be closed at the end of 2005. Fraport plans to build there a new terminal with a capacity for 25 million passengers per year. FRA might still be slot controlled even with the new runway and new terminal but, if so, the slot controls will be in place fewer hours per day than now.
 
cessnalady
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 7:12 am

RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 5:34 am

...as far as I know also the placement and center of gravity is extremely important in an aircraft... (Tasha)

Actually, weight and balance procedures are far easier to carry out when handling containers and pallets; as the exact weight of every unit is known, calculations are made swiftly, and then each unit is placed in a determined ideal position inside the a/c.

...I'm not saying that the A380 will not become a freighter with great lifting capabilities; I think it will not be as good as it could have been in a single deck configuration. I would imagine that it would be a bit difficult loading in a twin deck configuration.... (Tasha)

At least FedEx's a380-800F's (AFAIK, the only freighters that have been oredered - however, it is my understanding UPS is also looking at them) will have two main cargo loading doors (in addition to the standard bellies): the lower main deck will be loaded from a door aft the wings, whereas the main upper deck will be loaded from another door positioned forward the wings. The bellies will be loaded from the standard cargo compartment doors on the starboard side of the a/c.

Actually, the full loading/unloading process should not take any longer than unloading a current MD-11F - which I understand stands at 17-20 minutes.


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...the A380 is primarily designed to carry enormous loads of passengers to very distant places nonstop... (Tasha)

I don't know about this one... I have been told, however (by persons I respect a lot as knowledgeable and serious conoisseurs) that the A380 was indeed developed first to be a freighter... To whom a large number of seats and amenities could be added; this is, the A380 was born, as an idea, as a long-range freighter that later evolved to become a passenger aircraft.

I'm sure a deeper research in a.net or in airbus.com could yield answers to the foregoing... While I carry out such research, I hope there will be some fellow a.netters here who will be kind enough to pitch in some guidance on this question...

Marie
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 5:46 am

(AFAIK, the only freighters that have been oredered - however, it is my understanding UPS is also looking at them)

Some of the Emirates order is for the A380F. They will presumably be working out of the new Dubai cargo hub.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 6:05 am

please dnt bring age into it i wouldnt if you were senile or something

Perhaps if one in every three of your words weren't spelled incorrectly, we'd look past your age. The 7E7 is a plane drastically unlike any other commercial airliner ever flown. Just because you can't visualize these things doesn't make them untrue.

The A380 is evolutionary, not revolutionary. It is a great craft, however.

Just because your airline (or any other business) isn't making a profit - it doesn't have to be mismanaged. After all, didn't Lufthansa just post it's first profit in a long time?

I hardly agree with that. I would stand by the assessment that LH could have been better managed to minimize some of the losses.

Thai is a well-run carrier. They've been making solid choices for years now. You have to respect that.

The A380 will not even make a great freighter due to it's true double deck structure ... I think it will not be as good as it could have been in a single deck configuration.

You don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you? Common sense shows that two full cargo decks are the best configuration for containerized cargo, while one deck is best for outsized shipping.

If outsized shipping of the magnitude you described was as important as you suggest, then the BC-17 would have flown, there'd be more Belugas in the world, and there'd be 50 Mryias instead of 1. The reality is that package freight is the number one sort of air cargo, and the 380 is optimally configured for that market as well as other kinds of pallets or containers.

There are two sides to every issue and they have to be looked at in a whole.

Yes there are, and to do that we should limit our comments to facts and educated opinions, rather than rampant supposition and blind faith.

Airbus has some serious deficiencies, and so does Boeing, but its best to let those be pointed out by people that actually know what they are instead of picking some random aspect that you don't understand and saying that its bad.

At least FedEx's a380-800F's (AFAIK, the only freighters that have been oredered - however, it is my understanding UPS is also looking at them)

FX: 10, EK:2, ILFC:5.

N
 
cessnalady
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 7:12 am

RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 6:10 am

Whitehatter and Gigneil... Thanks for the update on EK and ILFC's orders... Any clue as to who the end user of ILFC's A380F's will be?
 
leelaw
Posts: 4520
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Sun Aug 29, 2004 6:34 am

IMO, the ratio between pax and cargo versions on order would make more sense if it were inverted. I think this monster has much more potential as a freighter.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae

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