pilotntrng
Posts: 679
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:13 pm

Separation?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:00 am

Don't get me wrong the pics these guys take over in LAX are phenomenal, some of the best on a.net, but aren't they a little close to the departure corridor? I know they have radar coverage by ATC and they give them permission to fly that route, but seems to be a little close. I know zoom on the camera is used, but one of these air to air pics the photographer said the separation was only 1000ft, isn't that the minimum separation? Just a curious question or two, if the photographer reads this. Great Shot!




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Photo © Daniel Werner

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Starlionblue
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RE: Separation?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:12 am

Actually the zoom lens fools the eye. Notice how the relatively small cars jump up at you. This plane is close to the ground. The caption mentions flying at 3500ft.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
pilotntrng
Posts: 679
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RE: Separation?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:19 am

Im not sure what the climb rate is on a 747, but isn't that still pushing it a little close? lol
Booooo Lois, Yaaaa Beer!!!
 
timz
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RE: Separation?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:41 am

"one of these air to air pics the photographer said the separation was only 1000ft"

1000 ft would be legal, right? But I'm guessing they didn't say that. Can you quote where they did?
 
pilotntrng
Posts: 679
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RE: Separation?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:46 am

Maybe it wasn't a thousand feet, but a few hundred, check out the remarks in this awesome picture.




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Aeroflot777
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RE: Separation?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:50 am

In regard to the pic in reply #4, isn't this posing a risk for a disaster. I mean a huge jumbo is not only passing by, but actually going straight at you!! I mean counting how fast planes fly, should there be a crash in no time. I mean its 200+ m/hr!!!

Aeroflot777
 
wietse
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Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2001 12:49 am

RE: Separation?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:54 am

Since when does the angle of attack of a 744 taking off exactly match its climb rate?? Even though the plane looks as if it is coming at the photographer, it will pass far below him.
Wietse de Graaf
 
timz
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RE: Werner's "earlier" Pic

Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:55 am

Far as we can tell, the head-on pic was taken from 3+ km away. Take a look at the "Right into your Face" thread in the Photography forum.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/aviation_photography/read.main/144989/

While you're there, make sure to look at the simulated pics in the linked pprune thread, in reply #50.

[Edited 2004-08-27 18:59:24]

[Edited 2004-08-27 19:00:30]
 
mikeyusc
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:50 am

RE: Separation?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:23 am

The pictures were most likely taken from the Los Angeles Special Flight rules area, a VFR corridor directly over LAX 3500ft NW bound, 4500ft SE bound that allows VFR aircraft to pass through the Class B airspace without talking to ATC. All departures from LAX are initially assigned 3000ft, and 500ft is minimum legally required separation between VFR & IFR aircraft.

Mike
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Separation?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:32 am

1000ft is acceptable horizontal separation. This does not indicate the actual distance between the aircraft. Also, one plane could be crossing so while the photoplane may be in the flightpath of the 744 (unlikely) it's crossing the path and will be nowhere near when the 744 gets to that point.

As Wietse points out, the direction in which the nose is pointing is not necessarily the direction in which the aircraft is flying. In most cases the nose points several degrees further up than the direction of flight (this is known as "angle of attack"), especially at low speeds.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Separation?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:34 am

Even if those photo's are very nice, it doesn't justify the risk they take. Imagine engine failure, or even worse, a guy who flies there and wants to go 'kamikaze' on a 747 or terminal building.

Do those people get the same screening passengers have? Don't think so. You make one mistake, deliberate or not, and you fly right into a 747 on take off.

I say this photographer takes to many risks to win our attention, and is forgeting about all the risks involved.

Again, just my 200 euro....

KL911
 
timz
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RE: Separation?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:37 am

"All departures from LAX are initially assigned 3000ft"

Yeah, I was wondering about that-- in Sam Chui's caption he said the 744's initial clearance was to 1000 ft. Sounds unlikely?

But we still have a problem: the pics clearly weren't taken from midfield. The SMO 132-degree radial almost bisects runway 25R, but the pics were taken from a mile or two (or three) west of there.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Separation?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:43 am

If ATC thinks it's ok, that's good enough for me.

Besides, there's time for the 744 to dodge. We're talking clear sky VFR.

What are you going to do, block off huge swathes of airspace for no good reason. Planes still approach over Manhattan, for example.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
mikeyusc
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:50 am

RE: Separation?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:57 am

"But we still have a problem: the pics clearly weren't taken from midfield. The SMO 132-degree radial almost bisects runway 25R, but the pics were taken from a mile or two (or three) west of there."

There is also the shoreline transition route, which is offshore, 2500ft to 4000ft, ATC clearance IS required, altitude assigned by ATC, which allows another area (probably better) for getting the departure shots. It isn't generally used any more because of a couple of incidents with airliners busting their assigned altitude (NOT the GA guys) and coming close to a Mid-Air.

Mike
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1574
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: Separation?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:59 am

PilotNtrng, When you've got some hours logged understand the system, and seen other traffic while actually in the air your perspective of this will change.

Aeroflot777, Kl911. This is not meant as an insult, or put down. Your remarks show that you are not seasoned in the aviation field.
Don't let photos, news reports from untrained sources, or other nonaviation sources influence you thoughts on aviation matters. Trust me. Everything you see in those photos is camera magic, and completely safe. Were it not, every Commercial Pilot and ATC group would have ended it years ago. Directly over, or a mile or two either side of LAX is the safest place to be in the skies of southern California.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
pilotntrng
Posts: 679
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:13 pm

RE: Separation?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:56 am

Spree I do have some hours logged, I was just curious about the separation. MikeyUSC thank you for the explanation. LAX obvioulsy has some special rules for us VFR pilots. Sorry for being ignorant on LAX's airspace regs.
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