ACB777
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Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:23 pm

Why don't CO, DL, and NW fly to Australia? Is it because that the route would not be profitable for them? I find that hard to imagine, because it seems that there is a lot of demand for USA - Australia routes. Since CO and NW are going to join Delta in Skyteam, I believe that there should be a direct route by a Skyteam airline from USA - Australia. This would be a much better route to Australia instead of the KE route via ICN. Also, this would also expand the Skyteam route network. Is it possible that these airlines could start new direct routes from USA - Australia (e.g., IAH-SYD, MSP-SYD, DTW-SYD, ATL-SYD, etc). These airlines would probably need a plane such as the 777-200LR to do this non - stop, however.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Edited 2004-08-28 08:28:38]

[Edited 2004-08-28 08:29:16]
 
N1120A
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:01 pm

Some years ago, NW did DTW-Osaka-SYD and LAX-SYD flights with their 744s. They printed money on the routes, particularly on the Osaka-Sydney segments as they had 5th freedom. The problem arrose when the Aussie government stepped in at QF's behest and limited the PAX NW could carry Osaka-SYD and NW bugged out. CO does fly to Australia, from GUM with Air Mike
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BNE
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:05 pm

I think NW is the only airline that would have the planes to fly from USA to Australia. If each of the airlines NW, CO and DL could co-ordinate their schedule at a city like LAX then it might be possible. I am not sure of the exact figures but a lot of passengers ex Australia will usually stop in LAX.

Another problem for CO, NW, DL, there hubs aren't really places that Australians would tend to visit. MSP, DTW, MEM. IAH, CLE, EWR. SLC, DFW, ATL, CVG. Can anyone name of anything historically important or must see attraction which would warrant a visit. Those hubs are also not western with SLC still being 2 hours flying from LAX.

Another problem is that with Qantas being the primary carrier and only full service carrier. If you want to travel outside of Sydney you got to fly Qantas or Virgin if don't mind LCC.

If they are looking at this route then they better get to it fast before a Virgin company beats them to it. A Virgin owned company, whether an offshoot of Virgin Atlantic or Virgin Blue, were considering flying US-AUS in the next year or so.



Why fly non stop when you can connect
 
ltbewr
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:13 pm

Didn't Hawiian air take one of the slots of a USA carrier to Syndey, with their flights from Honolulu? Don't forget that you have UA, Qantas & Hawiian to Sydney. Qantas and the Austrialian government likes to protect their home carrier and thus making it not economical for the other carriers expand. I think the CO connection to Australia is into Carins, in far nothern Queensland. Let's not forget that this is not a cheap route to run, requiring several 747's or long range 340's, double crews, and expensive ground support.
 
Skyteam10001
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:52 pm

you can look at this thread for answers

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1509812/4/

hope this helps
A.
 
kim777fan
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:07 am

"Another problem for CO, NW, DL, there hubs aren't really places that Australians would tend to visit."

But isn't the issue Americans visiting Australia rather than the other way around??? There's a whole plethora of flights going to Florida and the Caribbean and it has absolutely nothing with residents of Barbados visiting Philadelphia. Since NW already operates LAX - NRT and LAX - HNL, they already have enough presence there at LAX to start an LAX - SYD service with a 744.

It may be distance that is the biggest consideration as IAH - SYD is 8596 miles putting Sydney JUUUST out of reach. (Not by much, but it's the longest range jetliner CO currently operates, same with DL). ATL - SYD is 9258 miles and no commercial aircraft has that range except for *MAYBE* the A345, and Delta don't got 'em.
 
Gitano
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:22 am

CO does fly to Australia. It does so from GUM

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StevenUhl777
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:52 am

United has been the dominant US carrier to Australia since '86 using 742's via HNL, and eventually nonstop with the 744s from SFO and LAX, which they still operate. In fact, UA just announced their increasing their frequency to SYD for the Aussie summer season. There's a press release on http://www.united.com that explains more.

Hawaiian just received authority to fly HNL-SYD with 763's, which also will rely on feed from SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, and SAN.

I'd be very curious to learn why NW stopped serving LAX-SYD with their 744's. How long did NW fly the route, and when?

CO and DL don't have the aircraft to operate LAX/SFO to SYD. I suppose they could try HNL, but the profit opportunity must not be there for them.
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SCRAMJET
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:04 am

"MSP, DTW, MEM. IAH, CLE, EWR. SLC, DFW, ATL, CVG. Can anyone name of anything historically important or must see attraction which would warrant a visit?"

Well, I'm sure Aussies would love to visit The King in MEM!

And any Aussies interested in Diana Ross and the Supremes would CERTAINLY want to visit DTW!

The oil companies would enjoy direct service to IAH and Mormon Aussies might want to visit SLC!

So, there you have it! Justification for US-based SkyTeam members to begin direct services from the US mainland to Oz!

 Nuts
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Thrust
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:08 am

AA used to fly Sydney with the Boeing 707s, or was that Melbourne? It was very briefly during the 1970s.
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bobnwa
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 5:24 am

KIM777fan,

I would be willing to bet, that on any flight between Australia and the US on any airline, there are more other nationalities onboard the fights than US citizens.
 
antares
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 5:53 am

Note for N1120a, the US carriers didn't print money flying to Australia unless you are talking Confederate currency. They did their backsides. NW was selling tickets from JFK to SYD via the old Osaka airport for under $200 and CO had as $1 Chickenfeed offer on connecting flights into its US network from LAX on top of the TransPac fare. They raped themselves would be the kindest way of putting it. NW thought the Osaka routing would give it access to the rich Australia-Japan market, but were too dumb to realise that it was all but totally controlled by the seven major Japanese tour wholesalers. The result was that they couldn't give the seats away, and while the Australian government intervened inappropriately in my opinion to discourage them flying the route it was actually a mercy killing.

The general situation was just too ruinous to continue, even though they were fantastic for bringing Americans and Australians to see each other's patch while the good times lasted.

Note for BNE. I've had it up to my creaking ancient joints with silly comments about Virgin Blue being OK if you like LCCs. Two recent flights in full economy in Qantas were so pathetic in terms of so called service give me the lovely ladies and clean jets and cheap fares and equally comfy seats on Virgin Blue anyday.

It is hard to imagine any US carrier taking on Qantas in the immediate future either in terms of equipment or service standards, which may be ordinary by Aussie standards but blindingly brilliant compared to the crap dished out by the likes of AA and UA within the US. It will happen but I'm stuffed if I know when.
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 10:07 am

AA flew to AKL and SYD also in the early 1990's with DC10's routing DFW-HNL-AKL 3x weekly and DFW-HNL-SYD 4x weekly. Service didn't last long though.

I think those 3 airlines NW, CO and DL could hub services through LAX with an NW 744 operating LAX-SYD and possibly LAX-AKL wishful thinking there on my part, though I am a little surprised that no one replaced UA on LAX-AKL.
 
n9801f
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 10:51 am

The answer is very easy: these carriers don't have sufficiently big hubs on the West Coast.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 11:31 am

We started flying LAX,HNL-SYD in January of 1990. and terminated it April of 96. The route has been leased out for several years. The HNL route was sold outright, while the LAX-SYD is still being leased. NW lost money because there was little or no feed out of LAX and the tickets were heavily discounted. Now, I think that this market will be addressed if not sooner, than later. It all depends who will put up the money for it.
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JoFMO
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 11:56 am

Could CO fly IAH-AKL-SYD with their triple7?

I think IAD the nearest Skyteam hub to OZ.
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:12 pm

Gitano is right.

Continental flies to Cairns, Australia. Dont know the specifics on aircraft type, but it could actually be Continental Micronesia.
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jetjack74
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:07 pm

Air Mike 902, I believe flies a 737-800 into GUM-CNS.
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nickofatlanta
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:28 pm

Antares - "It is hard to imagine any US carrier taking on Qantas in the immediate future either in terms of equipment or service standards, which may be ordinary by Aussie standards but blindingly brilliant compared to the crap dished out by the likes of AA and UA within the US. It will happen but I'm stuffed if I know when."

Whilst I agree with you that it is unlikely that another US carrier will enter the market between the US and Australia anytime soon, I would definitely take AA More Room Throughout Coach over QF's Economy Class any day! Same with UA Economy Plus over QF.
 
antares
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:46 pm

Hi Nickofatlanta,

Yes you are right about the extra room. But is it true that AA is removing the 'more room' configuration to drive down ASMs? (I hope not.)


Antares
 
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:19 pm

Gitano Thank for remembering AirMike 737-800 3x per week GUM-CNS
1CO 902 GUMCNS 635P 1110P 738 0 435

We Tried GUM-BNE SYD with DC-10's it didnt work but it was grate to fly to SYD as it is in Our (Guam's) Time Zone..


 
baw716
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:23 pm

Hi all,
Most all of your answers are correct...not having the right equipment, challenging feed, etc. However, since Australia is a single market destination (in other words, not much connecting traffic beyond Sydney) and with no alliance partner in Australia, given the current level of competition in the market, it is highly unlikely that an Australian operation would be profitable.

Once the 7E7 is a reality, that could change.
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airbear
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:43 pm

CO ... I was told by my travel agent in DRW, that Air Mike have started, or will start soon, flts. bet. GUM & DRW, as well as CNS. Also, CO flew into SYD for many years with DC-10's. My wife and I took our honeymoon trip SYD/NAN on CO, not too long after they started here. At one point, they had a one-stop flt. SYD/JFK via HNL, as well as service to LAX.

NW ... I remember that there was a lot of political interference in their services, with QF as ever, whining in the govt.'s ear. They were not allowed to carry 5th-freedom pax bet. Australia & Japan. (UA at the time had - and poss. still do - have rights for Aust./Japan, but chose not to use them at the time) They all had to be thru' pax to Detroit of all places, when I believe most traffic ex Australia wants to go the West Coast. As for HNL, this was the during the time when traffic and tourism from Aust. to Hawaii was declining. HA also served the route, (L1011's from SYD to HNL via Pago Pago) and pulled out, only returning in May this year.
 
stirling
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:12 pm

AA began it's service to Australasia with the 707.

In addition to the obvious carriers, Air Pacific and Air New Zealand have traffic rights between the US and Australia. There is already plenty of competition on the SYD-LAX route.
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Gemuser
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 6:55 pm

The short answer is: MONEY.

Not just income from the services but the ROI or return on investment. The ROI on US-SW Pacific services would be horriable. All US airlines can make more money by investing in other routes. In fact I would bet that UA would make more money by closing their OZ operation and using there 744 elsewhere.

Why is it such an expensive route to operate?
a) It's l-o-n-g, it requires at least two aircraft per daily frequency. You must do it non stop which means B744 (preferable 744ER), A345/6 or B777, none of which are cheap to buy and very few are on the used market and the 777 has ETOPS issues, although not major ones.

b) It's T-H-I-N. If you draw a line from the equator to the South Pole that passes just east of Madagascar, then from the South Pole back to the Equator that passes just west of the west coast of South America, then back to your start point, staying south of the Republic of Indonesia, then you have just enclosed about 30% of the worlds surface. How many people live in this area?

30 Million, on a good day! About the population of the LA Basin plus the Bay Area! Far less than CA's 50 million.

Now given the above stated aircraft types, how many flights a day are going to be profitable? Today QF had five, two SYD-LAX, one each MEL-LAX, SYD-BNE-LAX, SYD-AKL-LAX, UA had one SYD-LAX & one SYD-SFO, NZ had one AKL-LAX. In addation there may have been one NZ AKL-SFO, one TN PPT-LAX and one FJ NAN-LAX, all 744 or A340 and FJ has a 738 NAN-HNL-YVR tonight and NZ may have a 763 on an island hopper to LAX.

Are they all profitable? I don't know but I'd bet not. Do they all earn a commerical rate of return? I doubt it. My guesstimate is that one QF SYD-LAX & NZ's AKL-LAX flights do so. QF's MEL-LAX would be boarderline, all the others, not a hope in hell!

Given the above why would any carrier that does not live here bother?


Gemuser
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chrisrad
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Sun Aug 29, 2004 7:42 pm

Singapore Airlines has applied a few times to fly SYD-LAX but the Australian goverment had not approved it?So there must be some money in it, if they are interested in the route
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Skyteam10001
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Mon Aug 30, 2004 12:31 am

Gemuser, the OZ-LAX route is one of the most profitable in Qantas' network, which is why the airline is fighting against any other airline willing to serve this route (like Singapore). I'm sure you can find a thread on this in the forum if you want more info.

Also look at the prices of the tickets for any day between SYD and LAX and you'll understand why they are making so much moeny  Big grin
 
Gemuser
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Mon Aug 30, 2004 7:29 am

Skyteam10001

You are right that OZ-LAX is profitable for QF. Does it make a commerical ROI? Nobody outside QF knows for sure, but I'd bet its not great.

Just because its profitable for QF does not mean it would be profitable for anyone else, otherwise NW, for sure, and CO and other US carriers would be on the route tomorrow.

I also highly doubt it would be a more than marginally profitable route for SQ. They would run into the same problems NZ did, ie it ties up two expensive aircraft full time per daily frequency and the lack of feed at LAX. The latter is why NZ is experimenting with SFO, much better feed for Star Alliance members.

The Oz government would, under current circumstances, be absoultely stupid to approve SQ for OZ-US. Why would you let a majority government owned airline that is NOT bound by normal commerical considerations into a route that is not underserved and is profitable?

The SQ intrest in OZ-US is not commerical but stratigic. SQ has no Singapore based growth oppunities left and so is looking for them elsewhere. That's fine but why should Oz provide them to the detritment of Oz & US companies?

As for fare levels OZ-US, on a per kilometer basis, they are about middle of the pack for international airfares, which is not bad considering the small size of the market.


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aa777jr
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Mon Aug 30, 2004 8:37 am

With all the flying in Asia NW does on B744, it's amazing they don't go to SYD.

Why not?

AA777jr
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United Airline
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Mon Aug 30, 2004 8:41 am

LAX-SYD is very profitable for UA too. UA is committed to the Australian market.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Mon Aug 30, 2004 10:07 am

With the SkyTeam being on the final assembly line, Australia is good prospect. NW on it's own was simply overwhelmed by the competition, with QF, UA, CO, and AA during the early to mid-nineties. But now with greater backing and more marketing muscle, NW along with the SkyTeam is well positioned for for service to Australasia. If the SkyTeam was to court a domestic carrier in Australia would be a big foot in the door. With UA in peril, now would be the best time to strike. I would hope that someone in our new alliance will start N/S service to Australia at somepoint.
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sccutler
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Mon Aug 30, 2004 11:21 am

Inherent in every one of these ubiquitous threads is the presumption that connecting at LAX is a good thing.

Which it ain't, unless LA is your destination.

I still believe that SYD-DFW service (especially with the impending opening of DFW's new international terminal) would be outstanding, allowing travelers to most US markets (i.e., those other than the western states) easier connections and shorter (in time) trips.

It remains logical for QF to do this to connect with its OneWorld chum, AA.

It would also be interesting to see CO feed traffic from its IAH fortress.

But, as noted above, it's always about range.
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kim777fan
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Mon Aug 30, 2004 2:04 pm

No kidding it's about range. DFW - SYD is 8578 miles, or just short of the record distance of covered by the A345 between LAX and SIN.

Besides, the thread is about why the current and future sky teams members aren't flying to Australia. Non-Stops from any current hub of NW, DL, or CO are either at the outer limits of their longest range aircraft, or they don't have them at all. That's why I suggested LAX as a possible departure point.

The 7E8 however, could change everything.
 
ryanair
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:26 pm

As Antares said last time they tried it 10-15 years ago it was a blood bath. UA and QF stuck it because they had 744's in great enough numbers to have a daily (now more) non stop product.

NW got their fingers badly burnt in Australia, upset a lot of people who they would need to return and I don't see them rushing back.

Most of the demand for Australia out of the US is West Coast based, so for airlines who aren't strong on the west coast (like NW, DL, Co etc) Australia has always been a hard nut to crack.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Tue Aug 31, 2004 1:17 am

I think IAD the nearest Skyteam hub to OZ

Even in the event you meant IAH, the statement is still incorrect.
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EK40
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:09 am

If CO flew EWR-AKL/SYD/MEL then I think they would gain on a lot of European regional business, i.e BHX/GLA/EDI/OSL I would fly them if the price was right and I could do it out of BHX! CO Have a great opportunity to tap into a great market! Shame they can't do it!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:38 am

If CO flew EWR-AKL/SYD/MEL then I think they would gain on a lot of European regional business, i.e BHX/GLA/EDI/OSL

...er, why?





CO Have a great opportunity to tap into a great market! Shame they can't do it!

There's little preventing them from doing just that, other than "profit potential" (or the absence thereof).
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Gemuser
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:13 am

To take this discussion in sort of another direction are there any carriers, other than Oz, NZ or US carriers who hold traffic rights non stop OZ-US?

In another current thread about QF starting service to BOM again, the question of QF operating thru BOM to Europe and the question of fifth freedom rights was raised. The AFAIK current Oz-India bilaterial gives a carrier from each country fifth freedom rights from the other country. QF used them to Europe until the early 80's and Air India used them to NAN from SYD until the late 70's, at least.

So the question is could AI, from a traffic rights point of view, start Oz-US services if it saw a profit in it?


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gigneil
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:22 am

No kidding it's about range. DFW - SYD is 8578 miles, or just short of the record distance of covered by the A345 between LAX and SIN.


And far less than the record distance of the 345 between SIN and EWR.

Even in the event you meant IAH, the statement is still incorrect.

Your post was useless. Of course its not the closest Skyteam hub, but if you wanted to help anyone you could have mentioned the closer ones.

Obviously, ICN is significantly closer.

N
 
NWAFA
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Tue Aug 31, 2004 11:24 am

I heard from Richard Anderson and he said that NWA is looking at NRT-SYD. Not right away (this year) but NWA is looking to go back into SYD...will not be nonstop from US, NRT will be able to carry more yield that way.

YEA! I sure miss it there!
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aa777jr
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Tue Aug 31, 2004 11:52 am

Just thought I saw a NW 744 at SYD when I was there in 2000.

AA777jr
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jetjack74
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Tue Aug 31, 2004 12:01 pm

That was a charter for the 2000 Olympic games. the aircraft was a 200. It was ship# 6642.
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ZK-NBT
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:14 pm

Would AC hold Traffic rights to be able to fly SYD-LAX non-stop?

From AKL i'm pretty sure that AC and SQ can fly AKL-LAX non-stop, though neither ever have.

 
stirling
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Tue Aug 31, 2004 11:34 pm

If NW goes back to SYD, will it be more substantual than what they did in '92?

SYD-HNL 742 Fri
SYD-LAX 744 Mon/Wed/Sat
SYD-OSA 744 Tue/Thu/Sun

HNL-SYD 742 Tue
LAX-SYD 744 Thu/Sat/Sun
OSA-SYD 744 Tue/Thu/Sat
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia?

Tue Aug 31, 2004 11:48 pm

Of course its not the closest Skyteam hub, but if you wanted to help anyone you could have mentioned the closer ones.

...thanks for saving me the rebuttal  Laugh out loud
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