keesje
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Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:28 pm


Aug. 29 (Bloomberg) -- Airbus SAS, the world's biggest planemaker, plans to challenge Boeing Co.'s 7E7 airliner, the U.S. company's first new plane in 15 years, with a longer-range version of the A330 model, said people familiar with the project.

Airbus may announce a decision to go ahead with the plan by year-end, said the people, who declined to be identified. The aircraft would take advantage of new, fuel-efficient engines initially designed for Boeing's plane by General Electric Co. and Rolls-Royce Group Plc, and cost about $2 billion to develop.


http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000006&sid=aaw23Pue2AbI&refer=home

For some reason a previous topic was deleted (un supportive of sponsor ?)
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:44 pm

Well, it has been rumoured for months Airbus would respond with an A332lite, but it seems the A350 is going to be more than that.

Apart from the new engines and the lighter structures, Airbus is reportedly also working an an ALL new wing in combination with the new engines, thus making the A350 an all new derivate (like the A340-500/-600 is to the A340-300) rather than just a re-engined A330-200 as was originally thought.

I guess Airbus is indeed going to push this plane forward before the end of the year to counter the hype Boeing tries to create with the B7E7 (adds continuously running on this site for instance which indeed seem to have their influence on the slant of the site) and of course to secure funding for their latest project under the current EU/US bilateral agreement before the US or the WTO can push for a change to it but it remains to be seen if it will fly before the B7E7...

[Edited 2004-08-30 11:45:31]
 
rabenschlag
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 7:06 pm

wow - this is really going to put some pressure on the 7e7 program. boeing themselves demonstrated what new wings and engines can do with a design of the 60's: the 737 NG can perfectly compete with the A320. given this, an A350 with new wings and engines may very well come close to the 7e7. (please do not delete!)
 
N754PR
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 7:10 pm

Interesting is all I'm going to say at this time.
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
N79969
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 7:36 pm

"Apart from the new engines and the lighter structures, Airbus is reportedly also working an an ALL new wing in combination with the new engines, thus making the A350 an all new derivate (like the A340-500/-600 is to the A340-300) rather than just a re-engined A330-200 as was originally thought."

Where is this information reportedly coming from? I did not see it in the article.

It makes sense that Airbus is responding. But it seems like they are responding with two major changes: 1. a new wing box (as opposed to a new wing) and 2. engines.

Will a new wing box made of composites reduce weight enough for a new a330 to compete with what will be a primarily composite airplane? The 7E7 engines are bleedless meaning that a new 330 would need alternative sources to power tradionally bleed air driven systems. I am also curious to hear more. $2 billion seems like a relatively small amount to develop what seems like a new type.

The other thing I am curious about is what the effect would be on sales of 340-300 series airplanes. It seems that with the extended range there would be some overlap.
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 7:49 pm

"The 7E7 engines are bleedless"

The versions of the gen-x and RR engines intended for the 7E7 will be bleedless (or will give less bleed-air).

GE and RR seem to have no preference :

"General Electric spokesman Rick Kennedy said the company designed its 7E7 engine with the intent of selling to others. "

``As market leaders on the current A330, Rolls-Royce would clearly be interested in providing the latest generation of Trent series engines for any potential application,'' said Martin Johnson, a Rolls-Royce spokesman."



I think a A350 would be aimed at the short/medium haul market, the same market the 7E7-3 is aimed at.

The long expected A300/310 replacement ...

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
PVD757
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 8:22 pm

The Question will be how much per aircraft will this cost? I think the 7E7 is also priced very low to keep pressure on the competition along that line as well.
 
N79969
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 8:41 pm

Keesje,

I probably did not state my question clearly.

One of the innovations of the 7E7 are systems that are powered electrically instead of using bleed air. From what I understand that would eliminate the need for many air ducts and thus reduce weight. Engines that do not need to supply bleed air can power the airplane using less fuel-- another efficiency gain.

To restate my question: how would Airbus and engine mfrs adapt these engines for the A330? Will they provide bleed air for the 330 or will the 330 get new systems that do not need bleed air?

I have no idea. Anyone have an educated guess?
 
micstatic
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 8:47 pm

Very suspicious. How in the world can Airbus possibly afford the R+D that comes along another new line?
S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
 
leelaw
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e

Mon Aug 30, 2004 8:55 pm

Half measures rarely accomplish much, reminds me of the 764.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
rabenschlag
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 8:55 pm

Very suspicious. How in the world can Airbus possibly afford the R+D that comes along another new line?

maybe the same way boeing was able to dig into the 764 and the 777 at the same time?






 
keesje
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 8:56 pm

How in the world can Airbus possibly afford the R+D that comes along another new line?

They sold 900+ copies of the 330/340 line and have an enormous 320/-30/-40/-80 backlog. Probably banks won't be hesitant to provide loans.

And it won't be a new line, just expanding the 330/340 family line.

The body / systems/ cockpit /tail etc. are "off the shelf"


"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
kl911
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:04 pm

Which airlines are the most interested in the 'A350' at the moment?

And:

To which airlines does the 'A350' fit the most?

KL911
 
rabenschlag
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:13 pm

leelaw wrote Half measures rarely accomplish much, reminds me of the 764.

while there may be some truth in this statement, boeing has demonstrated that evolution can work excellently if carried out in a proper way: 737 NG.

 
hz747300
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:20 pm

Too bad Airbus is not threatened by the 7E7 otherwise they might have to act on it...

This is the type of comedy that only happens in real life. I think that Airbus' project will be a failure because of their rush to market and, "hey, don't forget about me" attitude.

They should be focusing their efforts where they have a solid win--the large scale airliner.
Keep on truckin'...
 
N79969
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:32 pm

Hz747300,

Airbus has no choice but to react. The A330-200 owns its market segment and probably generates quite a bit of cash for them. It is far too early to say that Boeing 7E7/A380 will succeed or that the A330X will fail. Strategically Airbus cannot just sit by and watch Boeing potentially take over this market.

Keesje,

The private capital markets have to date not been willing to lend enough to Airbus. Or to put it another way Airbus has been unable or unwilling to pay market rates for the capital it requires to build airplanes.


 
hz747300
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:39 pm

N79969,

I have no doubt that they had to react--I just always laugh when first hear:

"We have no worries about the 7E7, it is rushed and ridiculous"

Then,

"We are willing to spend up to $2 billion of hard working European tax-payer money to develop a jet to compete with something we just said was 'rushed and ridiculous'."

However, when I heard that Airbus does not have to pay back development costs to their governments if it does not recoup those costs on the market for the A380, I lost a lot of respect for them. I do not play favorites though, as I lost a lot of respect for Boeing when they allowed themselves to be the beneficiary of the stupid lease arrangement for 767 tankers, and US government did not allow an A330 model to even compete for the role.
Keep on truckin'...
 
maddy
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:50 pm

Hz747300:
"I have no doubt that they had to react--I just always laugh when first hear:

"We have no worries about the 7E7, it is rushed and ridiculous"

Then,

"We are willing to spend up to $2 billion of hard working European tax-payer money to develop a jet to compete with something we just said was 'rushed and ridiculous'.""

It´s the same with the A380. First Boeing said "to big, no market", now they are developing the 747Advanced. It´s not as big as the A380 but a way to keep a market for the 747.

Again the subsidies threat? Do you think a company that has got a turnover of 19.2 billion euros (2003) needs subsidies or get them for free from the governments?
 
Greg
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:53 pm

Excellent. It will only make the 7e7 a stronger aircraft. And further the A330 program.

Competition is excellent for both the customer and the consumer.
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:55 pm


Hz747300 :
I have no doubt that they had to react--I just always laugh when first hear:

"We have no worries about the 7E7, it is rushed and ridiculous"


Re-writing history ?  Big grin
"Never lets facts stand in the way of a good story line"

The actual quote was : "They have rushed this aircraft through in a ridiculous way."
Richard Fisher (The Engineer, 11 June 2004) also pulled it out of context..
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1624993/


One would nearly forget the7E7 is an answer to the A330, and not the other way around.

Airbus started widebody short/medium haul twins from the start, competing with the 727..

Perhaps it is not so strange / unexpected they replace the A300/310 after so long ..

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
warren747sp
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 10:14 pm

But huge turnover does not equal net profit. Airbus will have to secure state funding for the new project which they laughed at Boeing earlier.
747SP
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 10:20 pm

But huge turnover does not equal net profit
True, but : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3935315.stm
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
rabenschlag
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Mon Aug 30, 2004 10:42 pm

luckily, the 7e7 receives considerable direct subsidies via the japanese portion of it - not only loans with a parachute as airbus does. so this time, competition may be fair enough.

additionally, it is not clear how airbus will finance the A350. so it's too early to throw eggs.

but as noted earlier, it's tiresome to start the debate over subsidies again and again... there has been enough whining, which sometimes creates the picture of bad losers.


 
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glideslope
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:27 am


I remember all those posts, "the 7E7 is no threat to Airbus." " the 330 is a fine aircraft as is."

Guess what? Airbus in faltering. If they don't go head to head with the 7E they could be in real trouble. I still say the 380 will not meet it's performance specs. I think others are very worried also. Airbus has put themselves in a real pickle, and Lehey's mouth won't get them out of it.

2 billion for R&D? What do you mean Airbus may not have? It will be the taxpayers of Germany, France, Spain, and Britain who come up with the 2 billion.

This along with the upcoming WTO issues for Airbus make the future appear more cloudy every day. IMO.  Smile
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:59 am

Guess what? Airbus in faltering.
IMO the 7e7 is basicly 2 aircraft. The 7E7-3 is a successor of the A300/310. I think Airbus is reacting on that one. The 332 and 333 are bigger then the 7e7-8. A333 is not even a real long haul aircraft.

I still say the 380 will not meet it's performance specs
The Airlines just don´t get it, do they?

I think others are very worried also
Are you referring to some a.net fellow members ?

2 billion for R&D? What do you mean Airbus may not have? It will be the taxpayers
We are talking repayable loans with interrest here. It proved to be good loans sofar..

This along with the upcoming WTO issues for Airbus make the future appear more cloudy every day
Cloudy ? Airbus order backlog : > $70Billion and growing ..

About the WTO: don´t worry, Boeing has too much too loose. You see, those Washingston State $3Bill and Japanese Billions aren´t loans.
When NASA/Boeing programs & funds programs are drawn into the discussions who knows what will happen...

Boeing now playing it up IMO is an example of attack as the best defense... Boeing has to bridge the next 4-5 years .. (e.g 767 tankers)
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
whitehatter
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:15 am

Glideslope

I suggest you take your crystal ball back to the shop as it clearly needs cleaning. It obviously is stuck on the politicians' rhetoric channel, and isn't showing you anything like the truth.

If the Airbus future is "cloudy" then Boeing is stuck in the middle of one hell of a storm...and as for taxpayers in Europe funding Airbus projects then good. The profits on the repaid Airbus loans help keep our taxes down.

Secondly companies which are 'faltering' don't have huge back order lists and six monthly profits of over $1 billion.

As for the WTO, bring it on. Let's have this out in the open once and for all. The hypocrisy of Mulally, Stonecipher and Condit is due for an airing. Screaming "UNFAIR!" at Airbus whilst trousering billions of dollars of non-repayable subsidy from States and Japanese government bodies is mind-blowingly two faced.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
radelow
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:33 am

Woah wait a minute here. While the Japanese are contributing money to the development of the 7E7 they are also getting to build the wings. Also isn't this money coming from the manufactures and not the government? They are making an investment with a payout. There will be contracts and agreements that prevent Boeing from walking away to another manufacturer for the wings (or whatever other piece). On the other hand the loans setup for Airbus were designed back when Airbus was at a competitive dis-advantage which is no longer has. Cost sharing is fair between supplier and manufacturer... Many industries do this and Airbus should as well.

Mark
 
brons2
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e

Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:49 am

As for the WTO, bring it on. Let's have this out in the open once and for all. The hypocrisy of Mulally, Stonecipher and Condit is due for an airing. Screaming "UNFAIR!" at Airbus whilst trousering billions of dollars of non-repayable subsidy from States and Japanese government bodies is mind-blowingly two faced.

Show me a property tax bill for Airbus' factories, or stick a sock in it. I suggest that the Euros can't do it, and the subsidy in fact creates a level playing field on local taxes.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
gaut
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:07 am

N79969,

One of the innovations of the 7E7 are systems that are powered electrically instead of using bleed air. From what I understand that would eliminate the need for many air ducts and thus reduce weight. Engines that do not need to supply bleed air can power the airplane using less fuel-- another efficiency gain.

To restate my question: how would Airbus and engine mfrs adapt these engines for the A330? Will they provide bleed air for the 330 or will the 330 get new systems that do not need bleed air?


Actually bleedless technology will not lead in a spectacular fuel consumption improvement. GE will mainly use the GE90 technology and RR the Trent Family one to lower the fuel consumption.
Take a look at GENX and Trent1000 web pages and you will see that bleedless technology is not the backbone of those programs.

I don't see the new Airbus with bleedless engines, manufacturers will adapt the engine for bleed operations

But that's my opinion

http://www.rolls-royce.com/civil_aerospace/products/airlines/trent1000/technology.jsp
http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscenter/genx/genx_20040406b.html
«Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae.»
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:24 am

Also isn't this money coming from the manufactures and not the government?
This sounds a little naive doesn´t it. Japanese government is over it´s neck in these strategic projects (MITI, STA)

This article states the 7e7 is/will be massively subsidized & Boeing can get in trouble with the WTO.
http://safety.sv.net/news/nitl.asp?ID=162

For those still thinking Boeing is a blue eyed innovator, playing it fair, telling the truth and taking risk as a traditional entrepreneur, just get used to the fact it isn´t like that these days ...

IMO the Boeing product portfolio needs some serious upgrading & blaming "Those Darn Foreigners" is instrumental in getting a slice of public funding.

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
rabenschlag
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:52 am

ok, then lets play the subsidies game again.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41192-2004Aug4.html

the 1992 traty between the US and EU allows both companies to receive subsidies - once in form of repayable loans (and yes, they are being repaid), once in form of state funded R & D. it's safe to conclude that if both are allowed to, both do.

less is clear regarding what is going on in japan. japan does give direct subsidies to its industries, according to the article. it is not, as was proposed before, that we are merely talking about the sum suppliers will have to invest. no, direct subsidies by the state of japan for R&D or mnft. of the 35% of the 7e7 are being discussed. according to the article, however, japan hides the numbers so far.

who am i to judge the situation. but whith my small amount of information i tend to conclude:

generally, A & B both receive some subsidies - via different channels - from the EU or US. if one receives more than the other is hard to tell. whether one form is more unfair than the other is hard to tell, because i (and probably most of us) do not know the numbers.

re. 7e7, boeing already received 3bil $ indirect subsidies (tax breaks; yes, this is subsidy, just as repayable loans at low interest and with a parachute is subsidy). up to now, it is unclear what will happen in japan. there are, however, at least some cues that some tax money will float into the elegant carbon wings of the 7e7.

i must say that i am happy that this is the way it is. we will see better planes this way - as long as there is still competition. and there is an will be competition for a long time....


 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:35 am

Take a look at GENX and Trent1000 web pages and you will see that bleedless technology is not the backbone of those programs.


The efficiency gains via bleedless technologies are not focused on the engines alone. The rest of the airframe will be significantly lighter as a result, and the associated systems will be as well.

The subsidy war is a conversation nobody here is qualified to have. Both airframers receive massive subsidies.

N
 
Northwest717
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Tue Aug 31, 2004 2:57 pm

I have complete faith in Boeing. I think the 7E7 will sell considerably better than the A350. I think the same might be true for the A380 selling better then the 747A. Only time will tell though. Don't get all fussed over this people, like I said, time will tell.....


-Tim  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Dubai: Center of the 21st Century
 
pw6000
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:40 pm

N160LH ,

Airbus committed to building the A330 tanker in the US. Airbus aircraft,
in general, have over 50% US content in them to begin with. The 777
on the other hand is over 35% foreign. The 7E7 will likely be around 70%
foreign. The next 737 will likely be all composite and all foreign (probably
a Japanese/Korean consortium). The A380 (if you include engines) has over
50% American manufactured content.

In that situation, it is probably in the American taxpayer's best interest to
buy aircraft from the ... um ... "foreign" company.
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:34 pm

Both A and B receive major subsidies. We would all be better off if subsidies were ended on both sides. The only net beneficiaries of subsidies are the incumbent politicians who use them as an unfair advantage against challengers.

Competition is good. I think A will have a tough time coming up with a derivative that effectively competes with the 7E7, but I sure am glad they're trying. I hope the products will remain competitive. I fear they may not for a while.
 
N160LH
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:46 pm

Alright kids....

I really do not care what you think is ignorant, I have worked on and around airbus's aircraft, and all of which have better Boeing made brothers.

The statement that this % of a plane is made here or there is beside the point. That's like saying since Toyota manufacture some of its cars the states that it is US car's or truck's. I understand that Boeing is having many parts to many of its planes made abroad. However since Boeing does not have Multiple countries covering its losses, their was no way that DOD would even entertain the idea of helping a foreign company before a domestic one. It would be political suicide.

To sum all of this up, the 747's will be flying long after the A380's are put away in the desert, and their will soon be 767 inflight refueling aircraft in the US Air Force.
"I do alright up in the air, its down on the ground that I tend to mess up..."
 
Joni
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:28 pm


This forum appears to be taking new members again? Am I the only one who thinks the level of discussion has dropped recently?

 
BestWestern
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RE: Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:49 pm

I feel the same Joni...
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!