MAH4546
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UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:31 am

United's plan to fly to China's "third city", Guangzhou, are no secret, but today they filed with DOT:

http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.cfm?documentid=294555&docketid=19026

United plans daily 777-200ER service between San Francisco and Guangzhou via Tokyo starting 25 March 2005. After that, they propose upgrading the service to daily non-stop flights from San Francisco using 747-400s one year later.
a.
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:14 am

Well let me speak for all when I say ITS ABOUT F***IN TIME!!

-m

 Big thumbs up
 
ual777contrail
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:54 am

GOOD NEWS!!!

UAL will do great on that route.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:37 am

I presume this is a direct result of the expanded rights negotiated just recently?

Will NW and AA get any additional slots into China in general?
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
gigneil
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:48 am

Will NW and AA get any additional slots into China in general?

AA is a new entrant to China, they could be allowed in in 2005. NW has already gotten new slots to serve CAN, and they are doing so, DTW-NRT-CAN.

N
 
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jetjack74
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Tue Aug 31, 2004 12:08 pm

UA will pull out before the 400's even make it there.
Made from jets!
 
gigneil
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Tue Aug 31, 2004 12:12 pm

UA will pull out before the 400's even make it there.

Perhaps you could argue your point a bit?

N
 
United Airline
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Tue Aug 31, 2004 1:43 pm

What makes you think that way???

Well, there are different means of transports between Hong Kong and Guangzhou. Very efficient and very convenient and it takes no more than two hours to get from Hong Kong to Guangzhou by train/high speed ferries (which you can take them at HKIA).

UA already flies from ORD/SFO to HKG.

What worries me is...... is there a need for such a route?

Perhaps AA should fly to HKG.
 
aviasian
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:31 pm

SFO to CAN via Narita certainly is far more attractive, everything else (fares and attractiveness of schedule) being equal.

It certainly beats changing to a different mode of transport (train / high-speed ferry).

Any right to serve a route linking a major US and a major Chinese gateway is valuable - and once obtained should be hung on to for dear life. It certainly is not something an airline look to milking for just a few years.

KC Sim
Bangkok
 
ual777contrail
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:17 am

But when you are AA, you probably wont have it for life. They have such a small presence in china. Funny when people were comparing south American dominance by AA and slamming UA for their huge presence in Asia during SARS. Now it appears AA wants in on the Chinese experience.

This is good news for UAL.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:25 am

Now it appears AA wants in on the Chinese experience

um... "now"???


Perhaps you missed the virtual bloodfeud between AA and DL the last time rights to the PRC were up for grabs? Or AA conducting the first ETOPS207 commercial assessment test with N777AN, for the express purpose of facilitating PRC/HK flights?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
DIA
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:46 am

Why wouldn't UA start with a 777 nonstop to Guangzhou? Why only do a 744 nonstop?
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
behramjee
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:56 am

UAL and NWA have 5th freedom pax-cargo rights on the JAPAN-CHINA-JAPAN route hence the new CAN route is routed via NRT and that too same aircraft.

UAL probably isnt too confident on CAN being able to fill up a B 777 on its own hence it thought that it would be best to fly via NRT which is a profitable route for UAL. The airline through its Star Alliance member ANA can hope to get quite a few Japanese and Chinese O&D pax flying NRT-CAN-NRT.

Its good to see that UAL is seizing upon potentially lucurative Intl flight opportunities and not increase frequencies on low yield domestic flights.

Also remember the main reason why a lot of UAL and NWA flights to other cities in ASIA are routed via JAPAN is because after World War 2, USA brokered a deal whereby its airlines would be allowed unlimited 5th freedom pax-cargo rights from any Japanese city to any Asian city but in return Japanese carriers cannot do the same on domestic routes and nor (I think) on US-CANADA-US routes...dunno 100% if JAL-ANA have 5th freedom rights on the US-CANADA-US and US-MEX-US routes.

[Edited 2004-08-31 18:05:43]
 
DIA
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Wed Sep 01, 2004 1:00 am

Thanks Behramjee.

Will this new "route" add an additional SFO - NRT flight to what already exists, or replace another direct route?
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
B2443
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Wed Sep 01, 2004 6:31 am

it takes no more than two hours to get from Hong Kong to Guangzhou by train/high speed ferries (which you can take them at HKIA).

Try convince a mother with 2 kids with 4 suitcases, car seats, baby bags to transit thru HKG...not a chance. For people that live in HKG, commute between HKG and Guangzhou is such a no-brainer. But don't forget the bags, custom/immigration clearance if your are from other places.

What worries me is...... is there a need for such a route?

Given that the population in Guangzhou is far greater than in HK, yeah there is. It means they do not have to drag their suitcases thru Guangzhou railway station, clear immigration at Kowloon, then change to Airport Express...and you might have to arrive to HK the night before. Nothing against HK but no thanks.

I'll take any airline that gets me to my destination in the least time. I dumped NW for UA just because NW stops at NRT, while UA flies non-stop into China.

Go UA!
 
sw733
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Wed Sep 01, 2004 6:38 am

It's about time China is getting respect, with increased services to Beijing, Shanghai...now hopefully Guangzhou. Guangzhou is a great city, I was there for an overnighter about 6 years ago while visiting a friend in Hong Kong, and they definately deserve more international service! Only...it should be from ORD  Wink/being sarcastic
 
iowa744fan
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Wed Sep 01, 2004 6:46 am

Since when has China not been getting respect? It is near the top of the list of airports/countries that many airlines around the world are trying to gain access to. The number of flights into China by US carriers has been so limited because they cannot secure the rights from China. If they were allowed, AA, CO, and DL would all jump at the opportunity to fly to China.
 
sw733
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:01 am

Oh, ok. I didn't know that. Sorry. I simply meant it as that they haven't always gotten the traffic that Japan or Hong Kong as gotten...I didn't know it was because of rights and stuff. I'm nowhere near as smart as most of the people on this site, and it was just a mistake.
 
NWFltAttendant
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:29 am

Looks like UA is 'keeping up with the jones'... cant be outdone by another carrier. I dont know that this is a route that can sustain a 777. Theres a reason NW is only flying a B752 in there.........

...........just a thought
Go yakkin !!!!!!
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:39 am

Nwfltattendant,

You didn't read the application at all did you? The reason they didn't apply before is because they didn't want a battle of airline vs airline like they did in DEN they wanted to be granted to one so they could just go in and take the other 7 slots there. The route can support a 777 no problem. Especially with the Air China code share! Plus, UA dose all their cargo with their passenger aircraft so the widebody makes since where as NW can ground transport their cargo to HKG and put it on the first freighter back to the states. It all makes perfect since but I guess working for NW you have nothing better to do then try to look down on superior carriers. Yea it doesn't seem so right when some one else is doing it to you, dose it? Grow up and watch the finances and try to keep up with the industry!


-m

 Big thumbs up
 
Horus
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:24 am

Can one of you avid UA fans tell me UA's current trans-pacific routes? I know its probably quite extensive, so my apology in advance for the time spent compiling the list.

Horus

EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:32 am

United's current trans pac flights:

ORD NRT X2

ORD HKG

ORD PEK

ORD PVG

ORD KIX

JFK NRT

SEA NRT

LAX NRT

SFO NRT X3

SFO PEK

SFO PVG

SFO ICN

SFO HKG

SFO KIX

NRT ICN X2

NRT TPE

NRT BKK

NRT HKG

NRT SIN

HKG SIN

HKG SGN

HNL NRT X2

HNL KIX

SFO SYD

LAX SYD X2

SYD MEL

-m

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JoFMO
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:21 am

Just one correction:

the latest StarAlliance onlime timetaable shows onls 2 flights SFO-NRT. But UA codeshares with NH on their daily flight.


 
MAH4546
Topic Author
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:26 am

I dont know that this is a route that can sustain a 777. Theres a reason NW is only flying a B752 in there.........

Northwest is using a 757-200 there becaue they can. They have 757s based in Tokyo. United has no narrowbodies in Tokyo, so they don't have a choice if they wanted to. There is no reason to believe a 777 can't be popular. China Southern operates 777s non-stop on LAX-CAN, and Air France and Lufthansa are among CAN's growing list of international airlines.
a.
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:37 am

my bad your right....SFO NRT is only double daily.

-m

 Big thumbs up
 
A2
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Thu Sep 02, 2004 4:40 am

What is the chances this route will be awarded to them?

-A2
 
burnsie28
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Thu Sep 02, 2004 4:55 am

UAL777Contrail-
Your kidding, obviously you dont know jack, the 757's is because NW has the rights to the second runway not suitable for heavy aircraft like the 74. Also most of the 757's are flown on routes that UA cant take you to, i.e. PUSAN, also a couple of domestic Japan flights and routes that would not support a 777 or 744 etc. United if they could would operate narrow bodies, i am sure of it and open some of the other cities that NW has opened and will continue to look at.

United Tristar-
Look who's talking, guess you need to shut up and stop looking down on superior carriers. Goes both ways.

Also, now with NW joining SkyTeam, and since China Southern is a SkyTeam member obviously it seems that NW may know more then UA. Running a 752 and will have more connections availible then United. Hmm, amazing how that works. Also now with SkyTeam being the Worlds Largest Alliance effective September 13 looks like well, and airline that is larger and more experienced in Asia will come out on top again. Also if I do remember correctly, just what like last year, Asian's rated NW the top North American Airline. Wow, you both just got your you know whats handed to you.
 
azjubilee
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:52 am

Well this thread has taken the typical turn for the worst... can we POSSIBLY be adults here?


AZJ
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:01 am

Burnsie28,

Obviously you missed the hole point of the statement. It was only said to show that anyone can insult anyone but it gets you no where...But you obviously cannot see that...Why I don't know?? I thought it was basic and easy. OH and by the way, read it over once again and you can see I was no way impuning NW's ability to run the flight. On the contrary it makes since for them to operate it with a 757. So calm down pussy cat and put the claws away

Oh well, what can you do?!?!

 Nuts

-m

 Big thumbs up



[Edited 2004-09-01 23:08:22]
 
gigneil
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:02 am

What is the chances this route will be awarded to them?

I think it to be high. There are a lot of new routes being awarded, and United and NW have both demonstrated leadership in the market.

They will award some routes to other US carriers, but UA has a strong case.

N
 
PlaneGuy27
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:23 am

A2 and Gigneil,

There is almost no chance in hell that United will get this route.

First United has already been awarded 7 new 2004 frequencies from the new agreement and they are starting ORD-PVG in October. This is an obvious stab to try and block American from getting rights on the same route in 2005 and 2006. (just like they did in

...NW got 7 (2004) new frequencies and started DTW-NRT-CAN service.

In 2005 the US gets one new passenger designation and 7 new weekly frequencies which means that the new passenger designation will 99% likely get the new 7 frequencies. This is going to be AA or CO (DL may get it if they get their act together but very unlikley)

American has been lobbying Washington for years on getting rights to China and COntinental represents big markets to CHina from New York and Houston.

In 2006 the US will get yet another designation but it will be either passenger or all-cargo. Most likely between AA and CO, whoever doesn't get the 2005 designation will get the 2006 and the 7 additional 2006 weekly frequencies as well.

If you want to see the DOcket, Continental has already replied which says it all. Check out the link at http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf89/294747_web.pdf

Mark my words - UNITED ALREADY HAS 28 FREQUENCIES IN THE MARKET _ they WILL NOT GET THESE FREQUENCIES....it's a shame because SFO-CAN would be a great route. They should really convince China SOuthern to use frequencies allotted to CHina (which aren't being fully utilized like the US side) and start CAN-SFO.


PlaneGuy27
 
carnoc
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:42 am

Well, there is NO WAY the UAL would urge China Southern to start up the CAN-SFO service (unless the UAL is being mad), simply because:

1. China Southern is a FUTURE member (Remember, it is officially not a member yet) of the SkyTeam whereas the UAL is a key participant in Star Alliance.

2. China Southern is not the UAL's business partner in China, Air China is the biggest friend with UAL on Chinese Mainland. It even makes more sense for UAL to urge Air China (although CA's hub is in Beijing) to start up this service rather than to urge China Southern.

3. Starting up a new INTERNATIONAL service for China-based carriers is not all that easy, although the carriers could apply to the CAAC to be willing to start up a new international service, but the final decision is up to the government, so what's the point for UAL to convince China Southern to operate CAN-SFO service when China Southern doesn't really have a say 'in the aviation politics'.

Best Regards.
 
tpac
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:46 am

PlaneGuy27

Totally agree. Way too many non-incumbents(AA, CO, DL, HA) wanting a piece of the China action.

UA is just trying to muck up the waters in hopes of keeping any new entrants out of the marketplace.

DOT should reject this application, it is outrageous to say the least. UA is clearly desperate to find new revenue sources for a failing business model.


 
carnoc
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:00 am

Well, China is currently one of nations that are most profitable in regard to the UAL's current international network (as advised by one of their AP regional managers), and it is understandable for them to do everything possible in order to at least maintain their market shares. External figures show the UAL is one of most well-known and reputable foreign carriers among the Chinese people and they have already built the top public image & brand trustiness in comparison to other key American rivals on Chinese Mainland.

Best Regards.
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:16 am

Hawaiin Airlines has also urged the DOT to deny United's request. Hawaiian is also planning to apply for US-China rights.

In my opinion, they will be going to American Airlines in 2005. Though maybe AA will switch the proposed routing to Dallas with UA now flying ORD-PEK and, soon, ORD-PVG.
a.
 
Carpethead
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:43 am

HA's 763ER can not make non-stop PEK or PVG from HNL with winter head winds. So why the hell are they complaining.

DL, CO, & NW have very little large-capacity aircraft available. AA has the 777s they can take off the Atlantic or S. American routes. UA can just work the 744s & 777s sitting out in the deserts. Therefore, awarding rights to carriers that HAVE aircraft available makes sense rather than award a route and wait another year or two for an aircraft to be ordered and delivered.

NW's main hubs are in the east, so they need more 744s though they can use the 332s for connecting through NRT, but NRT's slot issues are the problem for additional flights.
 
Horus
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:37 am

Thanks for the info UnitedTristar

Horus

EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:35 am

Any time Horus!

-m

 Big thumbs up
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24522
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:10 am

HA's 763ER can not make non-stop PEK or PVG from HNL with winter head winds. So why the hell are they complaining.


HNL-PVG/PEK are well within the 763s range, as is HNL-CAN. Air Canada uses 763s trans-Pacific from Vancouver to China, Korea, and Japan with no problem, and those are longer distances. Both HNL-PVG and HNL-PEK are shorter than HNL-SYD, which Hawaiian flies three times a week.
a.
 
mattnrsa
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Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:27 pm

RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:02 pm

Can anyone clarify how many slots will be awarded total in 2005? If it is only 7, then NW and UA are probably out of luck since they just received 7 each. If the 7 everyone is mentioning only to a new carrier, but incumbent carriers can receive slots from a different pool, then they've got a pretty good shot.

With UA being the only US carrier with a sales office in CAN, they are definitely showing some commitment to the area.
 
PlaneGuy27
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Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:38 am

RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:04 pm

Sales office means jack! 7 new weekly passenger frequencies are available in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 & 2010.

NW and UA were already given an advantage in the market being encumbents and getting to share the 14 new frequencies that became available in 2004 when the agreement got signed.

And of course I know that China SOuthern and UA aren't getting together in any way shape or form.
 
uadc8contrail
Posts: 1636
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:23 am

RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Thu Sep 02, 2004 11:43 pm

Sales office means jack! 7 new weekly passenger frequencies are available in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 & 2010. Planeguy27 is correct...look at what AA did. they go into vietnam before ual and set up this shop. everyone in here was saying how AA was going to vietnam, ual goes in then and sets up shop and poof, you have ua doing sfo-sgn flts. i thought AA was going to get in there before ual....

UAL777Contrail-
Your kidding, obviously you dont know jack,the 757's is because NW has the rights to the second rwy not suitable for heavy aircraft like the 74-BURNSIE

Burnsie,
UAL must have rights as well rwy 34R. I have landed and taken off from 34R at nrt in a 777......
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
uadc8contrail
Posts: 1636
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Thu Sep 02, 2004 11:44 pm

BURNSIE,
i did some checking......ual has used 34R/16L IN A 400.....
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
SHUPirate1
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Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:39 am

Am I psychotic, or am I reading in an official DOT document that states that UA has SFO-CAN route authority...here's what I am showing:

NW: HNL/LAX/ORD/SEA/SFO-CAN/PEK/PVG, plus DTW-PEK
UA: ORD/HNL/JFK/LAX/SFO-CAN/PEK/PVG
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
gigneil
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:10 am

They do have the authority, but are using all their frequencies to China on other routes presently.

NW has DTW-PVG authorities as well, they used to fly it nonstop.

N

[Edited 2004-09-02 21:19:30]
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:17 am

Gigneil-Maybe they forfeited it or something, I just double, triple, and quadruple-checked, and NW does not have DTW-PVG authority...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:24 am

BURNSIE,
I did some checking......ual has used 34R/16L IN A 400.....

wouldn't that be obvious? Doesn't UAL/NWA use this as we speak? But what do I know, I work for NWA.

NWA DC-10 CONTRAILS
 
NWAFA
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:37 am

SHUPirate1

With all due respect to you, NW DOES have the DTW-PVG route authority, its just not using it.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
PlaneGuy27
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RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:49 am

SHUPirate1,

NWAFA is right - The China US market with the new agreement allows essentially for any authority between the US & China. The restrictions lie on intermediate points between the two (i.e. Tokyo Narita) and the number of frequencies and designations.

NWA could fly any route from the US to China that they wanted. They would need the frequencies. United can do the same. There ARE restrictions on what intermediate fifth freedom points can be used (i.e. NRT) and beyond points. There are even frequencies restrictions on the total amount of NRT-China weekly frequencies allowed.

American and Continental could feasibly get designations as well in the US CHina market and could start wherever they want (couldn't do NRT since they don't have beyond rights from Japan) but the problem there is also frequencies.

Essentially, don't count on this to happen for United! It doesn't matter that they already have SFO-PVG, SFO-PEK, ORD-PEK and now ORD-PVG - the whole point of this new agmt is to get new US carriers (and Chinese carriers - look for Hainan AIrlines to start service to the US) into the US-China market.

Just my 2 cents.

PlaneGuy27
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: UA Applies To Fly To Guangzhou/CAN

Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:24 am

I would say it depends a lot which aspects the DOT takes into account. UA offers them something what's new and therefore quite useful for American travelers because CAN isn't already served directly from the USA. I don't see DL, CO or AA offering anything else than PEK or PVG, but they are already well served by NW or UA from the states. They could offer new starting destinations from the USA but not very likely new destination in China. Therefore I see good reasons for allocation UA the requested new rights to CAN.
On the other hand you could argue from an industrial stand-point. And because UA and NW already have so many flight to China why not give rights to some of their competitors. That would possibly lower prices and give more American cities direct flights to PEK and PVG. But it doesn't give you more opportunities to fly beyond PEK and PVG with an American carrier.

What are DOT's criterias?

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