BestWestern
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Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:06 pm

Lufthansa have announced that they are to start researching the replacement of their 737 classic operation, making a decision within two years

http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/040831/airlines_lufthansa_1.html

'The carrier has not yet decided to what extent or how quickly it will replace the aircraft. The carrier has 33 Boeing 737-300s and 25 Boeing 737-500s, according to its web site.'


'Lufthansa also plans to choose a single model for its regional fleet, the Financial Times Deutschland cited Lufthansa chief buyer Nico Buchholz as saying.'
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777ER
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:09 pm

My bets are on the A32X family as LH already operate the A32X family for their Regional operations.
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TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:12 pm

Hmmm.. am I experiencing a deja vue or wasn't LH originally supposed to make a decision on the 733/735 replacement already this year as part of the (failed) Star Alliance order?

How many posts until somebody will mention they should order the 717, because it is such a beautiful aircraft? 10?  Big grin Big grin


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BestWestern
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:16 pm

perhaps they should go for the 717, coz its a beautiful aircraft.  Smile

Failing that I see 50 A319's being ordered.
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TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:22 pm

Seriously though, if LH is intending to replace

- B733
- B735
- AR85

with the same aircraft family, and with the FD728/928 out of the race (correct me if I am wrong re: the perspective of this aircraft family), I can see either the Embraer family (170/190/195) or the projected new Canadair regioliner coming out as the most likely winners.

I don't know, whether LH would take the risk and order an oddball airliner like the 717, when there is hardly any other operator of this type existing in Europe.


[Edited 2004-08-31 11:22:42]
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JGPH1A
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:33 pm

I shouldn't be at all surprised if A319's and maybe even A318's are taken up for this. While fleet commonality isn't everything, it helps, and the fact that they are built in Germany can't hurt either.
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TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:38 pm

With about 70+ aircraft to be replaced, I don't see fleet commonality as such a big factor anymore. And the A318/319 is definitely too big and too heavy for many of the short intra-German and European hops LH is operating nowadays with the B737 and ARJ.

But what do I know? Just doing some educated guessing...  Smile

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BestWestern
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:44 pm

Would an ERJ170/190 be too small size wise as a 733 replacement?
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BA380
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:47 pm

I can't see why the 319 is too big to replace 733s and 735s........ I can see them ordering 319s as 737 replacements and perhaps CR7s or CR9s for the regional a/c -- given they already have experience with the CRJ
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JGPH1A
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:55 pm

A318/19 might be big for a ARJ replacement, but not for a 733/735 - they are approximately equivalent aircraft, aren't they ? I would think to replace the ARJ's they should get CR7 or CR9s operated by Cityline, and get the 318/319's for mainline.
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TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:56 pm

@BA380

Actually that would make a lot of sense, too, although I remember to have read that LH was less than thrilled with the performance of the CRJ-900, which is probably "a stretch too far".
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gkirk
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:00 pm

I think a fleet of 20 A380s should be ok to replace the 737s  Laugh out loud
Talking about fleet replacements though, are NW ever gonna replace their DC-9s?  Laugh out loud  Laugh out loud
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JGPH1A
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:03 pm

Oooh - the Mods are going to unleash the dark forces of hell's deepest dungeon on you for even MENTIONING NW's DC9's (which should be replaced by A318's as any fule kno).
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777ER
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:06 pm

Would an ERJ170/190 be too small size wise as a 733 replacement?
It all depends on how many seats LH have in their B733s and B735 fleet and depends on how many seats LH would like to have in the replacement aircraft. LH could get the ERJ170/190 if they want to have greater frequences then they currently do on the routes the B733 and B735 fleet operate on now.

A318/19 might be big for a ARJ replacement, but not for a 733/735
The A318 would be a good B735 replacement due to basically the A318 seats around the same number of passengers as the B735 do. The A319 would be a good replacement for the B733 fleet as ita around the same size and has around the same number of seats.

GKirk........are NW ever gonna replace their DC-9s?
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godbless
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:13 pm

Maybe Lufthansa wants to surprise everybody here at a.net and order the 737NG to replace the 733/735. So much for an all-Airbus-fleet.  Big thumbs up

Seriously I think LH is in a little tough situation here as the A32S isn't the best plane for some domestic runs away from FRA and MUC (maybe also DUS?) and after all the Airbus is getting quite old too (years not technically).
And the other planes all seem to be "not to LH's delike".
Maybe they still would prefer the 728?

Max

 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:18 pm


There was a time where LH was operating more than a hundred of B737s...and now only a fifty !!! Sad to see LH work horse disappearing from the air scene !!!

I don't think LH is in need for the A318, so ordering more A319s would be more accurate because it's between the 733 and the 735... 140<124<105...
 
fraspotter
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:21 pm

I would have to guess that they are either going to go for the A318/A319 family or the 737NG family.
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zvezda
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:21 pm

With plenty of capacity at MUC and a 50% increase in capacity coming to FRA in several years, I think ERJ170/190/195 makes a lot of sense. I would certainly be happy about it because frequency is important to me.

I also expect some A318/319 to be included in the B737 replacement.

As for NW replacing their DC-9s, I'm not sure that, with air taxis coming, that any of the legacy US carriers will survive long enough to order new aircraft. I just don't see how they can survive once they lose all their high yield business travelers.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:26 pm

Personally, LH's 733 are in excellent condition, and dont need to be replaced IMHO. Perhaps they will go the way of the LH 732's and find a new home with a Dublin based carrier.

LH cant really go for increased frequencies, as MUC and FRA are remarkably slot restricted. DUS and HAM are less so, frequency growth may be possible here.



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TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:29 pm

Just to add some notes regarding capacity restraints at German airports, all major German airports except for MUC are suffering from legal or technical capacity restrictions (e.g. TXL, DUS, FRA).
Even after extension of the FRA runway system, the additional capacity will be used up within a few years, so it makes a lot of sense to order equipment which is at least similar in capacity to today's fleet.

[Edited 2004-08-31 12:29:59]
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mauriceb
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:30 pm

think they will go for the Airbus family, because they only mentioned to replace the 737's but not the fairly old A320's in the fleet,wich some of them are older than the most 737's... so guess they want to have 1 aircraft familly during cost cuts...owh and don't forget that some 737's already left the fleet.

for the regional they will likely choose the CRJ family since it is fast, modern and already have a lot in the fleet. wouldn't make much sense to replace them wiht ERJ's.



greetings maurice

 
leelaw
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:36 pm

Despite its somewhat "checkered" sales history, isn't the 717 perfectly suited to fulfill the fleet requirement in terms of capacity, performance, and capability? Haven't FL and HA adequately proven it can do the job LH wants it to do? Despite the perception of the 717 being a "dog" in some quarters, Boeing has still managed to deliver 132 in five years. Additionally, in terms of political palatablility, aren't the engines manufactured in Germany?
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DIJKKIJK
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:37 pm

I'm sure they will go in for a combination of A320/A319/A318.


and GKirk, it would be nice if NW replaced its DC9s with the B737s LH is getting rid of!

 Laugh out loud
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BestWestern
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:41 pm

There was an article in ATW not long ago about LH's older A320's.

Although some of the first off the production line, software enhancements have kept the aircraft as good as new cockpit management wise, with LH having no plans to replace these aircraft.

The article also mentioned that LH have suspended their rolling replacement plans for the A320 as they are happy with current performance of the older fleet, some of them performing as well as latest arrivals.

This is testimony to the fleet management at LH. No matter what LH aircraft i ever board the aircraft has a finish of a just delivered aircraft. Even their A300's are in perfect shape passenger cabin wise.

I rarely compliment LH, but they have an excellently maintained fleet.
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GulfstreamGuy
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:50 pm

That is too bad. It will be sad to see them go, especially D-ABXE. This was the only aircraft with my "name" on the side.  Big grin


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mozart
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:50 pm

Whatever they do, PLEASE NO MORE CRJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

From a passenger's point of view, these are the worst planes in the LH fleet (with the -700 being only slightly less terrible than the -200 and -100 series). ERJs, the bigger Embraers, Dornier, 318s, whatever - but please please send those CRJs to somewhere very far away. Mind you, there's me and a couple of other poeple that systematically fly another airline whenever LH puts a CRJ, so it even makes them loose revenue.
 
Andreas
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:01 pm

Whatever they do, PLEASE NO MORE CRJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I fully support this motion!!!!! Never again, this aircraft has been built to accomodate dwarves and medium-sized dogs, but not your average homo erectus that tries to walk on 2 legs even after a flight(!!).
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TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:07 pm

You guys are all wrong re: the CRJ effect. Actually it is not a means to squeeze (in the truest word sense) the maximum profit out of the customers, Lufthansa is just concerned about the growing number of singles in our society and wants to help passengers get some much-needed human-to-human body contact. Big grin
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zvezda
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RE: Airbus: Thai To Buy 6 A380

Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:39 pm

Few passengers will notice that a particular route is served by a CRJ or an ERJ and make their next choice of carriers accordingly. However, some passengers, having flown in a CRJ, will notice the unpleasant experience and decide not to fly that carrier again on any route.
 
fraT
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:51 pm

To everybody who bring the point of fleet commonality: LH has always stated that they don't want to rely on one manufacturer. So the fact that they operate a big A319/320/321 fleet doesn't mean anything.
 
mozart
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:11 pm

Zvezda,

Few passengers will notice that a particular route is served by a CRJ or an ERJ and make their next choice of carriers accordingly.

I absolutely agree with you that the number of people looking for the difference or even noticing may not be that huge, but the amount of potential revenue lost is much bigger. Who is looking for which aircraft they go on (other than a.net fanatics)? Frequent travelers are, once they have made a bad experience. If I take myself and most of my colleagues as an example: we may be a small number of people, but each one of us is doing 3-4 flights every week between Paris and Germany, all in C class, and whenever LH puts a CRJ on CDG-MUC we move to Air France. We already use AF on all the other German routes (all the other routes are converted to CRJ already, with the exception of FRA which is all with real aircract) . There is sufficient frequency by both carriers, so LH just looses that business because of their "Bonsai Bomber" (sorry for the German).

Andreas, you summed it up soooooooo well. Guess you are another person taller than 1m50 for which those Märklin Mini Club planes have been built.
 
Ndebele
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:17 pm

@GulfstreamGuy: According to jp airline-fleets, D-ABXE has already left the fleet, being leased out to GOL where it is flying now as PR-GLC.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:18 pm

However the CRJ is perfect for thin feeder routes from MUC to cities such as TLS, MRS, BOD, etc, where three daily services allow hubbing without swamping the routes with unncessary capacity. It also alows them to route proove.

Placing the RJ on trunk capital city routes is plain crazy. LH, for example is the only significant RJ operator at LHR (aside from the odd BD ERJ at the weekend). What a waste of slots.
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JGPH1A
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:34 pm

BW - nobody has a problem with using Regional Jets on thin routes requiring multiple daily frequencies - they have a problem with using Canadair CRJ 100/200's which are horrible and cramped, and have the windows around knee level for most normal sized humans. CR7/9's are fine (at least I think so), also Saab 2000's, ERJ's of all sizes, 328's (jet and prop), all those are much more comfortable. Only CRJ's suck.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:35 pm

What about all the blahablaha about LH only wanting planes with a sidestick? This always comes up when LH and the 7E7 is mentioned. If it is true, it speaks for the Airbi.

Even though fleet commonality is not a huge issue with a fleet of 70 new aircraft, it's still a good idea. Look at how the US majors are scrambling to decrease their number of types despite having large fleets of each. There must be gold in them thar hills!
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UnitedTristar
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:52 pm

Wasn't there some discussion about LH and the New Fokker 100. They were leaning toward that over the 717 due to the fact that some European airports charge landing fees by weight and the 717 is heavier! Anyone else remember this?

-m

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nudelhirsch
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:01 pm

Why only sidestick? Sounds more like rumour, because profit is much wore value for LH than having those Joysticks...

Also, still not completely buried AFAIK is the revival of FD, where LH has some money invested. I think there were statements by officials, stating that LH delays some fleet decisions until it is forseeable how the invested money in the 728 project will be able to bring revenue. So with LH being on board the FD projects, this might still be an option, a rather nice one if my opinion counts...
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Starlionblue
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:05 pm

Why only sidestick? Sounds more like rumour, because profit is much wore value for LH than having those Joysticks...

Hey, I read it in the A.nut forums so it must be true! Big grin
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maddy
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:29 pm

"Why only sidestick? Sounds more like rumour, because profit is much wore value for LH than having those Joysticks..."

Most Airbus planes have these sidesticks so the pilots just need one qualification to fly on more than one aircraft. The airline can easily change the aircraft without changing the staff. That´s what saves costs.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:31 pm

Indeed, and the fact that the pilots can finally eat like human beings Big grin
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TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:34 pm

Most Airbus planes have these sidesticks so the pilots just need one qualification to fly on more than one aircraft. The airline can easily change the aircraft without changing the staff. That´s what saves costs

Actually, there are "slightly" more factors contributing to crew-qualification than just a sidestick. If you follow this logic, then every plane with a conventional yoke would offer cross-qualification, too.
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maddy
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:43 pm

As far I know a pilot just needs one type rating to fly the A319,A320 and A321.(I´m not sure about the A318)
To have all the three types in your fleet means that you can change the planes the way you need them (capacity).
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:43 pm

Wasn't there some discussion about LH and the New Fokker 100. They were leaning toward that over the 717 due to the fact that some European airports charge landing fees by weight and the 717 is heavier! Anyone else remember this?

Indeed, Lufthansa, aswell as Scandinavian is still rumoured for the new F70 and F100 program from Rekkof. Word is that an MOU has been signed between Lufthansa and Rekkof.

As a close follower on the Rekkof-project, I can only say that Rekkof is still working on a revival, but do not ask me when, because they won't tell me either  Sad

Cheers!
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Starlionblue
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:46 pm

As far I know a pilot just needs one type rating to fly the A319,A320 and A321.(I´m not sure about the A318)
To have all the three types in your fleet means that you can change the planes the way you need them (capacity).


Indeed this is true. The flight control system even makes the planes fly with an identical feel for the pilots.

However, weights are slightly different so some extra knowledge is required.

Also, this cross-qualification does not extend to the 330/340/380, although relatively minor extra training is required.
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maddy
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:49 pm

I would never compare a A318 with the A380 but both have the sidestick and relatively the same cockpit.
 
wdleiser
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:59 pm

I would love for them to get the 736/7 series
 
TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 11:31 pm

Ok, before we totally go off-topic, here is some clarification for you Maddy:

The side stick and the FMS coupled to it are one one (albeit major) factor of the cockpit commonality of most Airbus models. The most important factor however is the virtually identical cockpit though. This means, not only the size, look and position of all instruments and displays is the same, but also the way the software and the cockpit procedures are structured and operated.

Therefore you weren't wrong with your comment re: the side stick, however keep in mind that this is only one of a whole variety of items essential for cockpit commonality.  Smile)
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maddy
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 11:45 pm

TriStar500, what do you want to tell me? Am I wrong? The sidestick is just one item but I think a very important one.
 
jumbopilot
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 11:50 pm

I cannot imagine, that LH will give up its strategy of two fleets. All the pros and cons regarding other types and models are surely true. But I think, LH will stay with Boeing models. Do not misjudge the advantages of the current strategy:

- The crews can be changed from one plane to another
- The staff members collect a lot of experiences with types/models of that
manufacturer
- The later change to higher models is easier, the maintenance of the fleet
will be cheaper
- All the needed things to operate a Boeing fleet are already exist
- I do not know the market for used planes, but maybe, the rest value of
used Boeing planes are higher than for the others

I think, there are a lot of points to consider, we do not have in mind. But maybe, LH will surprise.
Carpe Diem
 
TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa To Replace 733/735 Fleet

Tue Aug 31, 2004 11:50 pm

@Maddy
Exactly. But the way you were phrasing it in your previous posts made the impression that this would be the ONLY relevant item.


[Edited 2004-08-31 16:50:57]
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