ThomasCook
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Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:11 pm

Hi,

The International Transport Workers Federation (ITF) have launched a new staff website (Click here) for Ryanair staff to voice their opinions of the company and its management without the fear of being sacked.

It has been launched as apparently some FR employees are afraid to speak to their bosses about the company and will now be able to talk confidentially on the site.

What do you think?

Regards
ThomasCook
A380 Crew
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:48 pm

Well I am no fan of Ryanair, but if they treat their employees in any way similar to the way they treat the hands that feed them (Travel Agents and Customers) then it is no surprise to me that the staff need this site.

How did you come across it?


Mark
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
QIguy24
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:01 pm

Personally I think it's a shame that they have to use a webpage to express their opinion towards FR to be sure that they won't get fired.
But on the other side, Many FR employees say they are getting treated well. So who should we trust? I don't know anyone who works for FR. So I don't know the truth.
 
ThomasCook
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:06 pm

Hi,

7LBAC111 - It was linked from Sky News

Regards
ThomasCook
A380 Crew
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Wed Sep 01, 2004 2:23 am

Do we have any solid evidence that FR's employees are being mistreated or are not free to state their beliefs? No.

Do we have any solid evidence that employees would be fired if they stated their beliefs? No.

We do not have any evidence whatever to back this up, so our discussing it seems a little pointless.

FR only has 2,900 'direct' employees - the rest, like check-in staff, are outsourced.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Skymonster
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Wed Sep 01, 2004 6:46 am

Pearson,

If you read PPRuNe regularly you'll know that a topic on Ryanair has had to be removed, just because Ryanair are threatening legal action as a result of their employees expressing their opinions.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:02 am

Who exactly stated that on PPRUNE? I bet it wasn't an insider or an employee of the airline. So much shite is spoken of FR that it would not surprise me whatever if it was just another person trying to cause a mess and for the airline to look bad. If proper and genuine evidence was submitted, then that would be a different matter.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
ThomasCook
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:02 am

Hi,

Pe@son: You have to be a proven employee of FR to be able to post on the Ryanair forum on that site.

Regards
ThomasCook
A380 Crew
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:24 am

I am of the opinion that all employees of all firms should have the right to speak openly about their employment - so long as it does not break any confidentality agreement - providing they have discussed their cases with the appropriate people beforehand. If employees break any confidentality agreement, then I believe it just and fair that they should face legal action, if the consequence is serious and damaging.

ThomasCook - could you provide me with an official website or document that expressly says FR would sue any employee for disclosing their views? Could you define the nature of the employees views? So far no evidence has been submitted whatever for all on this website to see - except for the opinions of people certainly not connected to the employees or the airline.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
ThomasCook
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:32 am

Hi,

I doubt I can find such a document, but then again why would I? I don't work for Ryanair. But a site such as PPRUNE isn't going to close it's Ryanair specific forum for no reason and the ITF are not going to set a site up for employees unless there is reason to.

Regards
ThomasCook
A380 Crew
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:47 am

You are sounding as though no other airline's or business's employees have a problem at work - but of course they do! I bet a HUGE number of employees are scared of disclosing their thoughts or the way they're being treated in fear of the potential consequences from the firm's managerial staff; after all, no-one wants to lose their job. It's just a shame that FR is on the receiving end, when the same could most probably be applied to a large number of firms.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Skymonster
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:52 am

Pe@rson,

When are you going to stop looking through rose tinted glasses... Go read the topic at the top of the main forum on PPRuNe - its clearly stated why another topic has had to be closed, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist, or even a university student, to work out what's behind that happening... And whilst you're at it...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,1293920,00.html

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
ThomasCook
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:54 am

Hi,

Pe@rson: Of course other companies have there fair share of employee troubles. You only have to turn on the news and see the mess at BA to realise that and there will be hundred and thousands of people who do not share their views on their company for fear of being sacked but it just turns out that Ryanair has been highlighted for this. My intention was to merely bring this new site and its meaning to peoples attention.

Regards
ThomasCook
A380 Crew
 
teahan
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:55 am

Pe@rson:

I can confirm what Skymonster is saying re. the PPRUNE topic being removed.

Jeremiah
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:01 am

Yes, I've read the article, but as I've said - a number of businesses come under scrutiny from trade unions, including BA, AZ, OA... ! If there are concerns, they should be sorted out, and IF FR is acting unfairly or illegally, then it should face the consequences, be that being sued, prosecuted (if broken a criminal law) or whatever else. Believe me, I am all for achieving an excellent relationship with all stakeholders - including the all-important employees. WN does it brilliantly, so there's no reason FR can't. Let's wait for the full report - which will hopefully state the true story - before getting our knives out.

Oh, and I wear contact lenses, not "rose-tinted glasses."  Wink/being sarcastic

[Edited 2004-09-01 02:03:42]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Zweed
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Wed Sep 01, 2004 5:01 pm

Big actions at the Airports in Sweden today where Ryanair fly from.
The swedish union were handing out air sickness bags with printed statements on them on how bad ryanair are.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Wed Sep 01, 2004 6:41 pm

Pearson

Nobody gets in the way of Michael O'Leary. Anyone who does gets his wrath. He gets very personal against those who do. I'm thinking Barbara Cassani, Mary O'Rourke (former Irish Minister of Transport), Aer Rianta, etc. If I worked in Ryanair I would be afraid to express my opinion in public. He is afraid of the Unions because they can as a group stand up to him.


However....

I personally know people who work in FR, and they are quite happy there.

I also think the Ryan Fair website is rubbish.


You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Wed Sep 01, 2004 6:58 pm

In todays Travel Trade Gazette, FR have admitted they are trying to prevent agents (such as myself) comparing their prices to mainline and other LCC carriers on competing routes. We have technology which allows us to check FR, U2, BA, AB etc all on one screen. FR hate this. Why?

They also state they will be investigating those people/agents who attempt to make money from selling Ryanair. The airline remains adamant it will not deal with the trade.

It is therefore no surprise they won;t listen to their staff either. MOL and his cronies are effing nuts!

7LBAC111


[Edited 2004-09-01 12:01:46]
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
mrniji
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:26 pm

I had a look at the webpage and signed the appeal at once. I think this is a great idea... this entire low-cost modell - exploiting employees in order to be 'efficient', making high profit which is distributed amongst the managers does not suit me..

By the way, if the allegation that FR employees are not allowed to join trade unions and raise their opinions is true - i.e. if this is a condition to get a job - it is a severe breach of Article 9 of the German Constitution - the right to get organized in Trade Unions etc.. and maybe even a breach of Article 5 of teh German Constitution... (in how far European HR Law is impaired, I will find out the next months) can anyone, who has trustful information on this please contact me via email? I will then check the case and eventually put a PIL in front of the SC of Germany (although I might not be able to do it since the German system only allows PIL under special circumstances.. but I would like to examine the case and will maybe put the results on my webpage)

Thanks for the initiator of teh thread.. this is an interesting case
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
caravelle
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:34 pm

Pearson, I went from TRF to PIK by FR a few weeks back, a 738.

It won't happen again.

According to papers here, cabin staff have to work a 62 hour week at wages that amount to next to nothing.

I'd rather pay more, than have to accept the FR policy of profits rather than people.

And my money is where my mouth is.

- caravelle
Trains and boats and planes....
 
pelican
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:40 pm

As always we have to differentiate.
The right to join a union should be granted to everybody.
On one hand the German Grundgesetz (~ constitution) does that (as already stated by Mrniji), but who cares? It's a common practice in Germany to threaten employees to prevent them from joining a union. On the other hand there a companies like AB who have a reputation to tread there employees well, although they ban unions.
I don't know whether O'Leary is a slavedriver (I wouldn't be surprised) or not but I've read that the average payment of FR is higher than the industrial average. Therefore this website could be nothing more than an attempt of unions to gain influence on FR.
And Mrniji why do unions work together with 'exploiters' like HLX or EZY?

pelican


 
mrniji
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:39 pm

On one hand the German Grundgesetz (~ constitution) does that (as already stated by Mrniji), but who cares?

It's a common practice in Germany to threaten employees to prevent them from joining a union

The problem is that people are either afraid on insisting on this Basic Right (=Grundrecht) - i.e. the motion would probably cause a job loss in the end - or 'just don't do it; very often, older laws and proceduredare only declared void after having existed for ages. It is a matter of fact that everyone has the right to join a union. This 'Grundrecht' is probably the only one (maybe Art 5, too) which draws a relation private-private instead of state-private.

but I've read that the average payment of FR is higher than the industrial average

This does not say much.. wage is one indicator of labor standards inter alia (working conditions, hrs et al...)

And Mrniji why do unions work together with 'exploiters' like HLX or EZY?

Sorry, I know too less about the two to give a profound statement. The only thing which interests me to find out whether there is profound evidence about the claims which could justify a motion to the Supreme Court (Bundesverfassungsgericht). It is really an interesting case.

[Edited 2004-09-01 16:41:57]
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
babybus
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:33 am

In the UK it is not illegal to join a union and in fact there are strict penalties on employers who try to stop or discourage staff from joining a union.

This website for FR employees must have been set up (or encouraged) by a cartel of EZY,BA and other LCC's to try and make trouble for FR. Such websites where staff can air their sorrows should apply to all industrial sectors. Unless we see this model being applied to other companies in the very near future we should presume it is no more than a stitch up. It must cause the UK great embarrassment to have their biggest and most profitable airline owned by foreigners. This could be one way to boot them out.

There are employment laws, there are tax laws, there are health and safety laws. Companies cannot work outside the law. If FR employees feel they are being victimized there are plenty of avenues to make redress within the courts. It looks a bit vulgar for staff to air their dirty washing on the internet.

and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:37 am

Hear, hear, Baby! About time someone besides me read between the lines and deduced that it need not be completely as it seems.

What I find particularly absurd is how Skymonster seems to only appear when someone is moaning about FR. This, to me, is sufficient evidence that people just want to get their claws into FR - even if it's not warranted.

Time will tell.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
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solnabo
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:46 am

Here (at Skavsta Airport) the union was giving out sickbags to pax. that was to board RyanAir, it was written on them about the cabincrew´s conditions, for ex. if you´re sick more than 4 (four) days a year you are fired......*u-hum*

It went on about workinghours and payment for RyanAir-staff etc. etc.

Micke//SE

Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:57 am

BA was in a pickle the other week for it could not reach agreement regarding the number of days taken off by its staff. It took a lot of time and discussion to resolve the problem. I would like proof of what you say, as, frankly, it sounds absurd and unbelievable.

FR could just pay the minimum wage to its employees in England and Wales, but it pays well beyond that: captains joining FR can earn up to 88,700 GBP in the first year, rising to a maximum of 102,140 GBP per annum; a first officer with three years' experience can earn up to 70,620 GBP per year. Hardly little! Based on this alone, I bet its cabin crew staff and its non-flying employees receive a good deal too.

I bet it's just a load of hot air.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Skymonster
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:09 am

Pe@rson,

Thanks for that... Being involved in the industry on a daily basis, I'm well aware of some of the tricks some airlines get up to - maybe strictly speaking within the letter of the law, but in the opinion of many not really the way things should be done - arguably not really ethical. You can find some information about what I'm talking about, if you really want to look, without being professionally involved in the industry. There are certain companies I'd never buy from (i.e. think third world fair trade and all that) for ethical reasons, and if there's an airline somewhere out there that falls into that category then so be it, and don't expect me to not represent my opinion when the subject crops up.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
mrniji
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:35 pm

I am with you, Andy...

Sonalbo, could you give me some more details about 'the content of the air-sickness-bags..'..? And people, as I said in reply # 18... evidence and info needed...  Smile
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:39 pm

This website for FR employees must have been set up (or encouraged) by a cartel of EZY,BA and other LCC's

I really don't think BA would involve themselves in any more dirty tricks - not after the VS game.
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
EIrob
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:35 pm

The 'sickbags' referred to were distributed by HTF - a union representing cabin crew amongst others. They describe Ryanairs' relationship to their employees in general. Reported items include:
Swedish Cabin Crew's basic pay is around 6000 Swedish Crowns per month. Supplemented by 6000 in flight payments and around 1500 in commission on sold onboard items. 13500sek per month (at 13sek: 1GBP thats around £1000 per month). HTF report an average 64.5 hour week, according to Swedish law (again reported by HTF) a maximum of 45 hours per week is permitted. I should add here, in an attempt at fairness, that crew at SK have also raised this issue, since they also 'often' work 50-60 hour weeks. However, sick-pay is a real issue here. If a Sweden based FR employee is sick, their sick pay is based on their basic pay, calculated according to Irish law. Even according to Swedish regulations, it is the basic pay rate that determines sick pay (and also state pensions). It is therefore important that basic pay rates are reasonable - 6000 SEK/month is not. SK and other Swedish airlines pay according to Swedish standards, rather than law. FR have had recruitment problems here in Sweden and have lost the majority of Swedish cabin crews since the beginning of the year. Replacements have been brought in from the Baltic States. Full details of the current position (according to HTF) can be found on http://www.htf.se for those that can read Swedish.

Personally, I have no problem with FR competing hard and on the boundaries of decency (!) - but they have compete on a level playing field, as Anders Ehrling mentioned in a radio program here yesterday.

BTW ignore my username in this thread! I no longer have any connection to EI!!
 
QIguy24
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:13 am

Pe@rson,

I have been very nice to FR the last couple of months. Big grin Even you have to admit that.  Big grin
But there must be a reason why so many unions around Europe are standing up against FR. They wouldn't do that without a reason.

And again, this is a debate forum. People can have whatever opinion they want about FR without you getting pissed all the time.  Big grin

Every airline in the world gets bashed in here. But where are you when they get bashed? Is FR the only company we can't have comments against or what?

See this is a friendly post and not a hostile. I just wanted to tell you my opinion.



[Edited 2004-09-02 18:18:44]
 
LJ
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Mon Sep 06, 2004 5:25 am

Hardly little! Based on this alone, I bet its cabin crew staff and its non-flying employees receive a good deal too.

@Pearson

Thus basically you say that the stories of an 85% turnover rate of cabin crew are unfounded??? If not, a 85% turnover rate says a lot about the working conditions in a particular airline.

There are employment laws, there are tax laws, there are health and safety laws. Companies cannot work outside the law.

I wonder in which world you live in. A lot of companies breake laws all the time, but are smart enough to know which laws can be broken by how much so that they don't get any trouble.

If FR employees feel they are being victimized there are plenty of avenues to make redress within the courts. It looks a bit vulgar for staff to air their dirty washing on the internet.

Sueing your company is difficult because a) they have more money and this alone can drive you into bankruptcy (a wellknown method in another industry) b) regardless of money it takes a lot of time to win and c) you loose anyway as you will be fired even if you win (the company will argue that the labour relationship is distorted and therefore you must go with compansation).

venting your anger on a website is unfortunately the only thing you sometimes can do.


 
planespotterx
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Mon Sep 06, 2004 5:39 am

I think personally we should all stop flying Ryanair (and encourage others to do so too.)
Ive just been reading a few of the posts on the website, and the one that disgusts me was a employee stating that Ryanair make the flight attendants work 9-14 hours a day with little or NO break, not even allowing them enough time for a toilet break.
I mean can you imagine working in a stressful environment for 14 hours non-stop without a break, or something to eat and drink.
I think personally Ryanairs "lost it", I never did like the idea of flying Ryanair, and I never will now.
Its not the fall that kills u, its the sudden stop at the end..
 
bennett123
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Mon Sep 06, 2004 8:30 am

Without supporting evidence it is hard to know if the complaints are true or not.

However, MOL's reaction to anyone else who does not agree with him, and that includes Regulators and Customers who both are able to hurt him, is usually pretty direct.

I think that it is safe to say that anyone dissenting would quickly find himself unemployed.

If Li is right about turnover in Cabin Crew, this sounds unsustainable. Where is he going to continue finding staff.

Like PlanespotterX, I do not anticipate flying FR.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Mon Sep 06, 2004 8:40 am

As I said in the other thread, if flight attendants want to quit, nobody is stopping them.

EDIT: This is my post in the other thread in it's entirety:

In the end, most jobs are pretty much "put up or shut up". An old boss of mine put it succinctly: "Fit in or f-ck off."

Seriously, if you're a good worker and don't like your current job, quit and get a new one. If a large number of FR employees do this, the airline will be forced to change it's policies. Market forces in action.

Union or no union, this is still the case. It's not like they're twelve year olds working fifteen hour days in a coal mine, anyway.


[Edited 2004-09-06 01:43:23]

[Edited 2004-09-06 01:44:05]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
globetrekker
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Mon Sep 06, 2004 9:01 am

Look frankly I am not a big fan of FR, but at the prices they are offering there is no way in hell, you'll get people to stop flying them. People like cheap things..simple as that.

GlobeTrekker
The World Is A Book And Those Who Do Not Travel Read Only A Page
 
N1120A
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Mon Sep 06, 2004 3:04 pm

If the F/As are making that little, that is unreasonable. It sounds like flight crew pay is quite decent, and that might be a problem in leverage. The thing is that airline workers can be treated well without unions (jetBlue employees have voted against joining unions a few times already) and airlines can have low costs and make lots of money with them (Southwest). If FR is really treating cabin crew like this, I will not fly them again and will not defend them again. If this is just something made up to push FR's buttons, that is not cool
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Mon Sep 06, 2004 11:35 pm

As I said, what is stopping the F/As from getting another job? Are they slave labor or something?`

They wanted the job. They applied for it. They got the job If they are being treated like manure, they can apply for and get another job. It's not rocket science.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
babybus
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:21 am

I don't know if anybody knows this but FR staff are :

1) Locked into the cabin at the end of each flt to stop them escaping,
2) Are physically beaten every time they visit the galley with their trolley,
3) Are subjected to verbal abuse via the phone if they are at home on rest,
4) Are banned from ever applying for any other airline job for as long as they live! Apparently hari-kiri is the preferred method of resigning (if they dare even think of resigning).

So, as you can see, even though there are over one hundred other airlines in the world, even similar LCC's, constantly recruiting for staff, FR staff are prevented from leaving.

I hope that if I was being physically tortured at work, like our friends at FR, I'd somehow manage, someway, to secretly leave and get another job!!!

and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
LJ
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:37 am

They wanted the job. They applied for it. They got the job If they are being treated like manure, they can apply for and get another job. It's not rocket science.

Not everyone is ;probably as fortunate as you (and myself) to do this.

The above statement is only valid for a person who knows for certain that he/she will have another job if quitting. However, cabin staff do usually n ot have this benefit, thus quitiing your job once the employment conditions become worse isn't always a viable option. At the end of the day one has to have money to live.

So, as you can see, even though there are over one hundred other airlines in the world, even similar LCC's, constantly recruiting for staff, FR staff are prevented from leaving.

ThusI reckon you don't have a family, house or anything which ties you to the place you currently live in. Congatulations! However, many aren't so fortunate as you are. Ever thought about that? But then again, the world is so perfectly organised, full free mobility of labour (thus no langauge barriers, no labour laws preventing someone to live/work in a country) and everybody can and wants to move to the other side of the world for a job.
 
donder10
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RE: Ryanair Staff Help Website Launched

Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:54 am

I had a look at the webpage and signed the appeal at once. I think this is a great idea... this entire low-cost modell - exploiting employees in order to be 'efficient', making high profit which is distributed amongst the managers does not suit me..

The average Ryanair employee earns more than his/her counterparts at most European airlines.Also,stock ownership is widespread among the staff.Pay is not the issue.The culture is.

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