DIA
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SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 6:48 am

Last time I flew through SFO, I landed on 19R UA733, and departed on 10L UA777. This was due to an abnormal weather front moving through the area.

That said, I'm wondering if there are ever approaches/landings made on 01R/L & 10R/L. I've never seen this, and cannot find any photo in the database to suggest this ever happens. . .and if it does happen it has got to be less than once in a blue moon.

Has anybody some information regarding these approaches into SFO?
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PA110
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 6:57 am

I don't believe there are any standard approaches to 01R/L or 10R/L due to noise abatement and a flight path that would bring aircraft over very densely populated areas. During strong Santa Ana winds, arrivals sometimes come in on 19L/R and departures go out on 10L/R.

Are there any pilots or dispatchers at SFO who can advise otherwise?
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OPNLguy
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:19 am

Approaches to 01L/R (in the rare event that the winds dictate them) are done as circle-to-land appoaches, i.e. you approach another runway (one of the 28's, usually) and then break-off to the left and and circle to land on the 01's...

You can see the same basic thing at MDW also. The Sears Tower out NE of the airport precludes a conventional SIAP, so they approach 31C (usually), break right, and and circle-to-land on 22L.

Back to SFO, take a look at the bottom of http://www.airnav.com/airport/KSFO to see the various approaches available. The absence of IAPs to the 01's (and only a couple of non-precision ones on the 10's) is more a function of terrain on that side of the airport than it is for noise abatement or overflying densely populated areas..

The low-level (relatively) yanking and banking involved with the circling approaches makes for some interesting photos..  Big grin



[Edited 2004-09-01 00:37:47]
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DIA
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:34 am

Very good info. Thanks for the responses.

"The low-level (relatively) yanking and banking involved with the circling approaches makes for some interesting photos.."

If only a spotter could photograph this 01 approach one of these days. . .that'd be something.
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roots
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:40 am

Since I moved to South San Francisco 5 yrs ago, I commute daily on 101 by SFO. During these years I've seen probably only 4-5 times when they landed on 1's and only 2-3 times that I can remember they landed on 10's.

Hopefully next time they do this, I'll be ready with my camera.

I met a photographer when spotting at SFO a while ago who had a photo of a DC-10 landing on 1R. The photo was uploaded to *the other* photo site but I can't find it now.

 
OPNLguy
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:40 am

>>>If only a spotter could photograph this 01 approach one of these days. . .that'd be something.

Be on the lookout for fall/winter cold fronts. Once they pass, winds out of anything from about 340-060 at speeds of 20-30 knots will usually drive them to use the 01's for arrivals...
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Aaron747
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:43 am

I've lived in the area for years and only once when they were using the 19s for landing was the crosswind component on the 10s bad enough that they had to run departures off the 19s as well. Makes for great spotting fun as the 19L heavy departures bank a hard left as soon as they're airborne for terrain clearance.

Typically when we get weather bad enough that they turn the airport around, prevailing winds are out of the SE. 98% of the time this is the case, the 19s are for arrivals and the 10s for departures.

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DIA
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:47 am

Roots: Sounds good. I hope you catch one or two of these and submit it. . .it'd be a first on A.net. . .and probably a "highly viewed" one at that.

OPNLguy: I'm flying into SFO next month, so I'll be praying for these winds you speak of. Smile/happy/getting dizzy

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aaway
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:51 am

"Be on the lookout for fall/winter cold fronts. Once they pass, winds out of anything from about 340-060 at speeds of 20-30 knots will usually drive them to use the 01's for arrivals..."

Very good info, OPNLguy.
The fall/winter cold fronts, and associated low pressure systems from the Pacific generally move northwest to southeast. The pressure gradient will cause the winds to shift as the front draws nearer. So a normally north to northwesterly - off the Bay or the Pacific - breeze will shift southeasterly.
I've been at SFO several times during such weather. I've seen the 01's used once for arrivals, but the 10's during the others.
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DIA
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:52 am

Aaron747: Thanks for the local insight. . .and the photo you took (seen in my original post) is grand. I have frequented this photo quite a few times now. Nice and clean. . .
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OPNLguy
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:55 am

I searched the photo database here using SFO as the airport, and 01L in the all fields, and came up with this one shot....

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/280166/M/

I did the same search with 01R, and I came up with many landing shots...

Note the deep blue skies in these shots, in the aftermath of the cold front that had come through. One photo notes that they only landed on the 01s for about an hour, and just as soon as the winds from the frontal passage die down, they'll get on a different runway configuration...
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DIA
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:56 am

"You can see the same basic thing at MDW also. The Sears Tower out NE of the airport precludes a conventional SIAP, so they approach 31C (usually), break right, and and circle-to-land on 22L."

I've done this approach quite a number of times. . .no skimping on fuel during this approach pattern. .that's for sure. . .low and loud. What a spectacular way it'd be to fly into SFO using this similar approach. . .
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DIA
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:02 am

"I searched the photo database here using SFO as the airport, and 01L in the all fields, and came up with this one shot...."

Great find OPNLguy. I overlooked that one. Too bad there isn't more scenery in that photo so that we can better orient ourselves. Rare shot indeed. . . Wish the photographer could've caught the final steep bank to the runway heading.
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Aaron747
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:16 am

I fear you may be a bit too early in the year for any hope at getting to land on the 1s DIA  Big grin

Glad you like the picture. They held us off at 7,000 feet, I just looked down and it was there.
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as739x
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:00 am

Its actually the best time of the year right now to see the 1L/R approach. Its done during late summer when the Santa Ana type winds kick in. As most SF locals know we get Indian summer here which is right now.

Here is my personal favorite shot of 1R arrivals. An Alaska meeting in San Francisco.


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On a note about 10L/R arrivals. Its mostly done in winter but is just as rare as the 1L/R approach. Mainly clear days with strong easterly winds. There is a GPS and VOR approach for 10L though.


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Aaron747
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:12 am

I'm still waiting for the indian summer to kick in.  Big grin

Had a couple days in the city the last week where we got over 80 but we're still in the 60s coast/70s bay/80s-90s inland/fog overnight and into midday typical summer pattern.
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as739x
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:22 am

Aaron....I have to agree! We need to get the warm weather to kick in. Maybe if we can get a nice high pressure system over Nevada we could get those NE winds and some 1L/R arrivals!

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OPNLguy
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:40 am

>>>Maybe if we can get a nice high pressure system over Nevada we could get those NE winds and some 1L/R arrivals!

Wouldn't a high pressure system over Nevada result in NE "Santa Ana" winds for Southern California, and not Northern California?  Big grin

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/tg/whighlow/whighlow.htm

(Drag your cursor over the appropriate graphic...)
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sfo212
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:55 am

The Runways 01s and 10s arrivals are very rare indeed. As has been previously mentioned, the 01s are used when there is a strong north offshore wind, usually accompanied by dry weather. Criteria I've heard the Tower used when offering it to pilots is when winds are anywhere from 350-050 over 20 knots. When those things happen, it is a spectacular day to watch the heavies perform the approach to the 28s and then circle to land by turning southbound and flying over the foothills as they prepare to make their final turn to the 1s. Quite often the tower advises of low altitude warnings as I assume they get pretty close to the rising terrain.

The 10s require a very strong easterly wind which is also rare, usually dry weather accompanies it. However, during one strong winter storm a couple of years ago the 10s were used for arrivals and departures. Problem was the cloud deck was quite low and there was no precision approach to the 10s. You could hear pilots being advised of low altitude alert as they came in through the gap to make the approach. The majority of them couldn't pick up the airport by the decision height or were too high on the approach when they broke out of the clouds and had to fly the missed approach. Eventually it got so bad that most everything diverted to OAK, SJC, SMF. Departures could go out, so by about 2 pm, all the terminals were deserted of aircraft but full of people. It was only a short term thing. A couple of hours later, the weather improved and everything came back in. Sure was interesting and unique though.

The 19s are used mainly during the winter when storms come through bringing southeast winds. Actually the term Norcal Approach uses is the Southeast Plan. The majority of time aircraft depart the 10s while arriving the 19s. However, on somewhat rare occasions the winds become so strong from the south that they depart and land on the 19s. Another amazing sight is to watch aircraft rotate off the 19s and climb rather fast and turn left to avoid the rising terrain.

One other note, you can tell when a storm front passes over the airport. Winds drastically change from the south to a strong westerly flow. Usually as the storm approaches the 19s are in use for landing and the 10s for takeoff. Once the front passes, the airport goes to a straight 28 operation.
 
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:07 am

That pic that OPNLguy found of the 747 supposedly landing on 1L... I'm guessing that's a typo.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 am

No typo. As it mentions a rare landing on 01L, I'm assuming it's real...

Lot's of other photos in the DB of landings on 01R... It happens...
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Aaron747
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:13 am

Ahhh life is great here. Big grin

I love the Southeast plan. Many a time I've returned home from a weekend jaunt to LA in january and have been treated to the ILS 11 for OAK. If you've ever had the pleasure, better night views you won't find from inside a jetliner anywhere in the Bay Area. The ground track is almost straight over the north end of Yerba Buena Island (you can imagine the city vista), and coming in from San Pablo bay there are splendid views of the north bay and golden gate if the clouds permit. Seconds later you're over blackness of the bay again and shortly thereafter, landing light illuminated rocky crags and the end of rwy 11.

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timz
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:34 am

"That pic that OPNLguy found of the 747 supposedly landing on 1L... I'm guessing that's a typo."

My point is, why would a 747 land on 1L (is it still 7000 ft for landing?) instead of 1R?
 
OPNLguy
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:37 am

Presumably, he was light enough to use it....  Big grin

Otherwise, I dunno...  Big grin
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Aaron747
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:37 am

Doesn't seem inconceivable to me timz. Dunno ff CI is one of them but a lot of the Asian cargo operators run a quick stop to SFO from LAX before continuing on to ANC.
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as739x
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:12 pm

Timz...NO TYPO.....I was actually there that day! Its a freighter, 7,000ft is plenty. Lots of heavy's landed on 1L that day cause 1R is needed for departures.

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timz
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:30 am

As I recall, arrivals on the runways 1 are told to start their turn to the south after the San Mateo Bridge (or maybe after the 6 DME, I forget). The last time I was there (8-10 years ago?) the wind must have been 20+ knots from 040 or 050, and Northwest 1, the 747-200 to NRT didn't want to depart from 1R, which meant they needed runway 10. As I recall they had maybe a 20-minute wait for Approach to get a gap in the arrivals, then they departed and turned left to 250 (?) heading to get back on the usual route.

Last time I saw arrivals on the 10s was the Tuesday before Thanksgiving in 2002. Weather was clear; seems to me on other occasions I've heard runway 10 arrivals from the east told to proceed direct to the Golden Gate Bridge, depart the bridge heading 230 or whatever it was. They'd pass over Oakland/Berkeley at 8000-9000 ft, so it was pretty obvious what was happening-- airliners ordinarily never have any reason to head west over here at that altitude.
 
anawat
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RE: SFO Approach/Landing For Runways: 01R/L & 10R/L

Thu Sep 02, 2004 11:59 am

I have witnessed it personally once in last 8 years of living in bay area.

I was driving up on 101 N. I saw 747 (older one, not the 400) flying really
low to my left and turning and kept turning. The captain only level the wings
just above 101 and few seconds before touch down. It was awesome sight.

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