WJA73G
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Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:34 am

There are Rhumors circulating around WS that Clive, after the announcement for the -600s claimed that there was news of the same grandeur and more extravigant in the near future, one in particular that stands out for me is:

_______________ L O N D O N , E N G L A N D _______________

Dont Quote me on this one though...

What do you think of that, and What do you think the other news might be?

WJA73G
 
flyyul
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:48 am

And they will fly the 73NG over to England from Canada?.. from where YHZ and YYT?

Good luck getting a slot in LHR.

 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:58 am

Well, LHR is kind of doubtful...STN would make more sense. The 73G has enough range to make shorter transatlantic (LON, PAR) flights from YYZ or YUL, espescially the ones that have the winglets installed. I think it would be much more likely seeing SG start this type of service though.
 
flyyul
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:01 am

There certainly would be some kind of payload hit on a 73NG doing YULCDG or YYZSTN etc....

 
slawko
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:10 am

London is within range for the 700's even from YYC, the westbound portion is a little more tricky but nothing that a stop along the way if required wouldn't solve...Given the option though I'd rather fly on something a little bigger. ETOPS will be a bigger problem then range for WJ, no histroy of it for them.

BTW Just wanted to thank WJA for coming out and observing the operation AGAIN this week!!! Must be doing something right if they keep sending people over to see what's going on at T3  Big grin
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Mark_D.
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For West

Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:15 am

Yeah, I'd figure there's no way it'd be LHR.

And if they do go for the necessary ETOPS certification for all this then of course they could fly to Hawai'i too.


YYZ-London would be out, even with winglets and even on just eastward runs alone (and who'd want to payload-restrict a 737NG, for a transatlantic flight? Yuck! So nothing doing there either).

Even YUL-London is probably a tad too far, at least for the westward return flight.

Maybe they'll go YYZ-YHZ-London (and if it goes well YUL-YHZ(or YYT)-London) instead.

Anyway it's an interesting new possibility for Westjet, they're really coming along in a very short time indeed
 
WJA73G
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:02 am

.. I dont know that this is all 100% out of the question..

What do you think the OTHER possibilities are for such big news, I did hear mention of Hawaii up there somewhere but what else could it be?

WJA73G
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:17 am


When in doubt go to the Boeing web site. The range diagrams for the -700 would suggest that YYZ- any London Airport is quite doable without any penalty. The diagram shows BOS- Berlin plus a bit which is 3292 nm plus for a -700. YYZ- London is 3090nm . So it should work for better than 80% of the time, which I believe is the basis of the Boeing charts.
I don't know if WestJet has any ETOPS certified aircraft; if they don't this should not be difficult to remedy with future deliveries against their options.
According to http://gc.kls2.com/ the ETOPS requirement would be 120 minutes.
 
flyyul
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:27 am

If the B737 was a more feasible transatlantic aircraft, wouldnt it be doing more flying across the pond?

one thing for sure, WS is not getting access to LHR.

 
airbusfanyyz
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:32 am

Hmm... would the live tv on WS switch to EU broadcasting over Iceland? Big grin

Cheers,
Kaz
 
greasespot
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:50 am

Ummmm westjet makes money by having as many departures a day as possible for each airplane. Flying one load a day to Europe and then one the next day will not make them money. If they do that with a 73ng then they will have to charge such a premium to make any money. There is a reason why the 73 is not a pond hopper. It Cannot carry enough people economically enough to make it feasible.

I will bet my Cat that west jet will NOT be going to Europe with it's present fleet.

Greasespot

[Edited 2004-09-02 03:51:22]
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
CXA330300
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Thu Sep 02, 2004 11:15 am

Probably not Trans-Atlantic, but maybe YVR/YYC-Hawai'i or Mexico? And if it is transatlantic, I'm betting YHZ/YYT-LON/DUB
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
CanadaEH
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:59 pm

Hawaii has been in the rumour mill for years now. We'll be ETOP certified for flights to Hawaii by around January. Word around Harmony is that if they aren't making money by the end of 2004, they're going to shut down operations. If that's the case, that's 8 round-trip flights a week between YVR and Hawaii that'll need to be filled.

I highly doubt we'll fly anything transatlantic. My guess is Hawaii and perhaps a Carribean destination, such as PVR or CUN from YYC. However, since we're partners with Transat, that may be a no go since we fly to most Carribean destinations already for charters.

I was also told that our -600's would have winglets. Perhaps we are a launch customer or perhaps I was misinformed?
EH.
 
CanadaEH
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:01 pm

ETOPS will be a bigger problem then range for WJ, no histroy of it for them

Just read over that again, here's a question: How does an airline such as Harmony get ETOPs approval so quick but an airline like Westjet can't? I'm a little bit familiar with the process, but can someone provide me with a more detailed explaination?
EH.
 
slawko
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:42 pm

Part of ETOPs certificiation is a history with either the operator, or the people responsible, as well as a history of ETOPS on the specific airplane in that country. Harmony with most of it's management being ex-C3, and using an airplane that has has ETOPS certification in Canada for many years would be more familiar with the ETOPS program and therfore more prepared for the certifications process, where as WJA has no history of ETOPS, and the 737 does not have ETOPS certification in Canada. As far as I know Harmony has not had an easy time of getting their ETOPS either, they have been in the process almost since the very beginning, they geared their original MTCE program towards ETOPS flying and so they were a bit a head of the game when it came to getting certification. Again WJA had up until recently never planned to even leave Canada and so the MTCE program that they (you) have doesn't have to meet all of the ETOPS requirements, so your process would be longer.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
jgardiner
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:01 am

Does any airline have a 737 with ETOPS rating?
 
fallingeese
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:01 am

I believe some of Continentals 737's are ETOPS rated.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
airportplan
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:09 am

jgariner,

Many airlines around the world have 73s with ETOPs ratings. Here are just a few.

Aloha (Mainland US to Hawaii)
Continental (CO Micronesia from Guam to various Pacific destinations)
Privitair (Newark-Dusseldorf)
Virgin Blue (Australia to various South Pacific destinations)
 
robsawatsky
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:28 am

Aloha flies 737-700's YVR to Hawaii so why couldn't Westjet?

 
CanadaEH
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:04 am

Slawko, that's kind of what I thought. I remember talking to one of our mechanics a while back and our ETOP program (or reliability program, whatever you want to call it) was started when we took delivery of our first -700, or that's how I understood it. Nevertheless, we want our aircraft certified for ETOPS and Hawaii does look like a target destination when it does happen.
EH.
 
slawko
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:57 am

"Aloha flies 737-700's YVR to Hawaii so why couldn't Westjet?" Last I checked Aloha wasn't a Canadian Carrier with canadian registered aircraft, and a Canadian ETOPS certification.

Hawaii is also a difficult one because it requires a fairly high etops rating, dont recall how many minutes exactly, because there is nothing between HNL and YVR, opposed to the various options along the atlantic, or north pacific routes.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
CanadaEH
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Fri Sep 03, 2004 8:42 am

Hawaii requires either 160 or 180 min ETOPS, can't remember which.
EH.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:22 am

one thing for sure, WS is not getting access to LHR.

Why not? There is no bilateral restriction on a 2nd Cdn carrier into LHR, and there is no reeaon why cash-rich and profitable WS could not procure LHR slots. It would be nice to see a profitable & viable Cdn carrier fly into LHR.....

"Aloha flies 737-700's YVR to Hawaii so why couldn't Westjet?" Last I checked Aloha wasn't a Canadian Carrier with canadian registered aircraft, and a Canadian ETOPS certification.

That aside Slawko, Aloha did not commence ETOPS experience until they received their 1st 73G, akin to WS. Hence, however more labourious the Cdn ETOPS requirements may be, Hawaii or transat flights by WS could be feasible in the next 2-3 years.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Cpt Underpants
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:09 pm

The biggest burden in achieving ETOPs certification is the requirements for the maintenance support program. Many of the maintenance manuals require a major re-write to get the certification. You can't get the certification until the maintenance end is done. Then, you have to fly your fleet on non-ETOPs routes for some time using the manitenance reliability program. Once this program shows that you have the required reliability, then you're on your way (assuming of course that the flight operations side has their ducks all lined up).

While it's not impossible, I'd be surprised if TC gave Westjet 180 minute ETOPs straight away. There's no ETOPs history with 737s in Canada, and TC usually wants the first operator to get their ETOPs in baby steps, with 90 minutes coming first, then 120, etc...

As for flying the UK with the 737NG, range would be the only concern. Lots of folks have crossed the pond in a single aisle airplane (757). I really don't see the difference.
 
kim777fan
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Sat Sep 04, 2004 12:02 am

"London is within range for the 700's even from YYC."

I don't think so. That's 3800 nm and I believe that is just out of a 73G's range.

YYZ - LHR is certainly doable, but 120 ETOPS would be needed for the most optimal route. 90-ETOPS also makes the route doable, but it means they would have to cut slightly north closer to Greenland and Iceland to do it.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Sat Sep 04, 2004 2:43 am

I think Aloha had ETOPs before the 73Gs showed up. They used 732s from Hawaii to the US west coast.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Sat Sep 04, 2004 3:19 am

I think Aloha had ETOPs before the 73Gs showed up. They used 732s from Hawaii to the US west coast.

No, Aloha never used 732's to the US west coast. No airline ever has. However, they might have had ETOPS experience with the 732 to Midway.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
robsawatsky
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Sat Sep 04, 2004 3:30 am

Heh, I'm just saying if Aloha can do it with their 737-700's, why can't Westjet. I didn't mean they can just jump in and start tomorrow, obviously there are paperwork and operational conditions and precedents to satisfy first.

Does Transport Canada have more difficult ETOPS qualification than the FAA?
 
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For West

Sat Sep 04, 2004 3:50 am

Westjet has done very well with their fleet plan and the 737NG series. With their domestic marketshare could they consider operating widebodies if they were contemplating services to London or other International destinations? This thread has been a good read thanks. Hope my question doesn't appear to naive to some of you who seem very familiar with Westjet.

Regards

PANAM_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:32 am

My mistake, I did a little research. Aloha didn't start flying to the west coast until 2000 with the 700s. There are pictures of Alohas 200s in Oakland prior to the that but they were leased to Air Cal. Aloha had one 732 that was ETOPS rated (N808AL) and was used to fly to Midway.
 
CanadaEH
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Sat Sep 04, 2004 5:22 am

While it's not impossible, I'd be surprised if TC gave Westjet 180 minute ETOPs straight away. There's no ETOPs history with 737s in Canada, and TC usually wants the first operator to get their ETOPs in baby steps, with 90 minutes coming first, then 120, etc..

I believe we started with 60 min ETOPS some time ago. The timeframe that I was given was that by January (est.) we'd have enough ETOP minutes to fly to Hawaii. Again, just going by what I was told by a mechanic.

I think Aloha had ETOPs before the 73Gs showed up. They used 732s from Hawaii to the US west coast.

We see the occasional Aloha 737-200 in YVR for maintenance by Air Canada.

Westjet has done very well with their fleet plan and the 737NG series. With their domestic marketshare could they consider operating widebodies if they were contemplating services to London or other International destinations? This thread has been a good read thanks. Hope my question doesn't appear to naive to some of you who seem very familiar with Westjet.

I don't think you'll see a widebody in our fleet anytime soon. The more likely scenario would have Westjet for a codeshare or alliance of sorts with an airline, most likely Air Transat. We currently have a partnership/agreement whereby Transat can book its customers on a flight from say YQR-YYC on a scheduled Westjet flight for a chartered Transat flight on a Westjet aircraft travelling YYC-CUN, for example. An enhanced partnership would have Westjet feed Transat YYC-YYZ on a scheduled Westjet flight for a YYZ-LGW Air Transat flight, for example.
EH.
 
frmyqr
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:15 am

The major guesses seem to be an international destination over water. Does this mean WS is happy with it's domestic program and won't be expanding in domestic travel for a while?

Do we even know it is a flight service expansion?
i'm from regina. Heard of it?
 
CanadaEH
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:50 am

Rumours are nothing more than speculation.

I personally don't expect any announcement of transatlantic expansion. There are still more point-to-point routes to be developed within Canada and plenty of routes to be developed into the US.

We recently announced an order for -600's, and my gut is telling me that we're going to announce the accelerated retirement of our 737-200's and accelerated delivery of more 737-600's to replace them. As of today I believe we have 3 737-600's and 1 737-700 set for delivery in 2006, and I can see that number growing to 12-15 more aircraft. I don't expect an announcement for RJ's or widebody aircraft, that would be way too strange at this point in time.

There are going to be announcements regarding our inflight product in the coming months, but what they will be and when is out of my control. LiveTV and our buy-on-board meal program will be getting an upgrade and duty free should be on its way. Beyond that I'm not sure what else could be improved.
EH.
 
bwaflyer
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Sun Sep 05, 2004 12:33 am

Just to let you know that we at Astraeus have just got our ETOPS certification, and will be flying 737-700s from Gatwick to Deer Lake, Canada every week this winter. Crews will be operating it as a straight turn around flight as the flying time is less than some of the sectors to Egypt we fly.
 
Goose
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Sun Sep 05, 2004 3:55 am

I personally don't expect any announcement of transatlantic expansion. There are still more point-to-point routes to be developed within Canada and plenty of routes to be developed into the US.

I'd personnally like to see WestJet start service up north; we have a distinct advantage over Canadian North, First Air and Air North in that WestJet has an extensive Canadian domestic network between cities in the south, and the addition of US destinations would only increase that advantage.

WestJet doesn't have combi aircraft in the fleet, though, so their ability to "fall back" on cargo like First Air and Canadian North do wouldn't be as much of an option for them.

I also wonder, though, if the "Southwest Effect" would work in YZF, or YXY.... or even YEV, or YDA....
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
Samurai 777
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:46 am

I personally don't expect any announcement of transatlantic expansion. There are still more point-to-point routes to be developed within Canada and plenty of routes to be developed into the US.

I feel the same way. I don't see anything as outrageous as transatlantic service happening for WS. I'd think most likely more new routes into the US, Mexico or the Caribbean. And possibly also to Hawai'i, although as said before in previous posts here, the -700s might need ETOPS certification.

We recently announced an order for -600's, and my gut is telling me that we're going to announce the accelerated retirement of our 737-200's and accelerated delivery of more 737-600's to replace them. As of today I believe we have 3 737-600's and 1 737-700 set for delivery in 2006, and I can see that number growing to 12-15 more aircraft. I don't expect an announcement for RJ's or widebody aircraft, that would be way too strange at this point in time.

That's also what I'm thinking, too. I've been having a feeling that the older 732s are going to be retired entirely much sooner than is planned by 2008. It's not only rising fuel costs and maintenance costs. I was told a couple of weeks ago that at least a few of the -200s are also beginning to fail their C/D checks due to their aging mainframes. WS's 732s are certainly older than AC/CP's 732s were!

So, it should not be a surprise if WS should decide to order even more 736s down the road. As for non-737 aircraft, well, it's still not entirely inconceivable that WS might also go for RJs like the EMB-175/190s to serve even smaller markets in Canada and/or the US. I know that WS has been toying with such an idea, especially since it had to pull out of Sault St. Marie and Timmins. (did WS really fly there or not?) But widebodies sound definitely out of the question for obvious reasons.
 
CanadaEH
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:49 am

WestJet doesn't have combi aircraft in the fleet, though, so their ability to "fall back" on cargo like First Air and Canadian North do wouldn't be as much of an option for them.

I'd say that maybe we'd keep a few -200's and convert them into combi's but that would just keep our costs higher by keeping only a few -200's in our fleet. Scratch that idea. Another thing to remember is that cargo is shipped based on contracts. Air North has almost all of the cargo contracts for YVR-YXY (8000lbs daily) so I would think that it would take some time for Westjet to start getting contracts for cargo up north. I also don't think there's enough demand for Westjet to fly up north from anywhere out west. In Alberta doesn't Air North and Canadian North both fly there? In Vancouver we only have Air North year-round and Air North and Air Canada in the summer. There was also talk a year back about Air North and Westjet forming a cargo feeding agreement whereby each airline can transfer cargo airside, plane to plane. Don't think that ever materialized.
EH.
 
CanadaEH
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Sun Sep 05, 2004 5:00 am

I feel the same way. I don't see anything as outrageous as transatlantic service happening for WS. I'd think most likely more new routes into the US, Mexico or the Caribbean. And possibly also to Hawai'i, although as said before in previous posts here, the -700s might need ETOPS certification.

The only thing about Caribbean expansion is that we have a huge partnership with Transat to fly there. Starting scheduled service there wouldn't be beneficial to either company and would probably do more harm than good to our partnership.

That's also what I'm thinking, too. I've been having a feeling that the older 732s are going to be retired entirely much sooner than is planned by 2008. It's not only rising fuel costs and maintenance costs. I was told a couple of weeks ago that at least a few of the -200s are also beginning to fail their C/D checks due to their aging mainframes. WS's 732s are certainly older than AC/CP's 732s were!

I've heard that Clive wants them retired sooner than later. The only problem (and pardon my explaination) is that retiring them sooner would be selling/retiring them before it is economical to do so. Let us not forget the rising fuel prices and its effect on the guzzling -200's.....

So, it should not be a surprise if WS should decide to order even more 736s down the road. As for non-737 aircraft, well, it's still not entirely inconceivable that WS might also go for RJs like the EMB-175/190s to serve even smaller markets in Canada and/or the US. I know that WS has been toying with such an idea, especially since it had to pull out of Sault St. Marie and Timmins. (did WS really fly there or not?) But widebodies sound definitely out of the question for obvious reasons.

Clive didn't say it was out of the question during the last conference call. I still don't think that it's economical to purchase any additional RJ aircraft until we've retired our -200's and are operating an all-NG fleet. Seeing any RJ order prior to 2008 is probably a longshot right now.

I don't think we ever flew to Timmins (although we may have done a charter or two). With the rising cost of flying into smaller cities (YLW, for example) I wonder if those are the cities that Westjet wants to fly to in the future?
EH.
 
Goose
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RE: Beddoe States, Big News In The Future For Westjet!

Sun Sep 05, 2004 2:41 pm

I'd say that maybe we'd keep a few -200's and convert them into combi's but that would just keep our costs higher by keeping only a few -200's in our fleet. Scratch that idea.

You're right, it's not economical. Add on top of that the additional ground service equipment you'd need, and so on, it just doesn't make sense to keep the -200s even in a specialized form.

The range on the -200s is also a drawback if you'd want to start service up north.

Another thing to remember is that cargo is shipped based on contracts.

I'm well aware of that.....


Air North has almost all of the cargo contracts for YVR-YXY (8000lbs daily) so I would think that it would take some time for Westjet to start getting contracts for cargo up north.

I'm not as pessimistic. Canada Post already ships a large quantity of mail through WestJet pretty much every weekday. WestJet has the network to offer a "from anywhere, to anywhere" service for Cargo that Air North and the other carriers up there just wouldn't have.


I also don't think there's enough demand for Westjet to fly up north from anywhere out west. In Alberta doesn't Air North and Canadian North both fly there?

Yes, they fly to both YEG and YYC semi-regularily.

I don't see Alberta being the largest source for traffic to the North, though; as it is now, I believe almost 50% of WS' traffic through YYC are connecting to other cities anyway. At least, that's the word.... feasibly, WS could offer service to YXY or YZF from any of its stations in Canada, and the connection traffic (which Air North and Canadian North don't have) and the local traffic combined should be enough to fill a daily aircraft out of either YYC or YEG.


In Vancouver we only have Air North year-round and Air North and Air Canada in the summer. There was also talk a year back about Air North and Westjet forming a cargo feeding agreement whereby each airline can transfer cargo airside, plane to plane. Don't think that ever materialized.

Don't see why it wouldn't work, they both use the same cargo contractor in some stations if I'm not mistaken.....


The only thing about Caribbean expansion is that we have a huge partnership with Transat to fly there. Starting scheduled service there wouldn't be beneficial to either company and would probably do more harm than good to our partnership.

Well, it would also mean that WS would assume more of the risk involved. Right now, if I understand it correctly, Transat basically buys the use of WestJet's entire plane and all its seats for the charters that they run. Before the aircraft has even left its originating station, WestJet has made money. Why mess up a good thing?
"Talk to me, Goose..."

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