22right
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Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:50 am

I was wondering if airlines customarily retire Flight numbers for flights that have crashed. For example I searched UA and AA websites for numbers 175, 93 and 11,77,587 respectively and came up blank. Those, for obvious reasons, they would want to retire.

But is this a typical thing?
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brettbrett21
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:53 am

From what I've heard this is usually what is done. I don't think you'll find a flt 911 either and BA have retired 223 after something to do with terrorism (can't quite remeber what though).

If anyone can remeber im sure they'll tell.

Brett
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rwylie77
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:55 am

You can understand why after they get so much publicity - I certainly wouldn't want to fly on a Swiss Air flight 111....
 
ba319-131
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:57 am

I understand it's a given that the airline retires the flight number after a fatal accident,IMHO a good thing to do,a sign of respect for those who lost their lives in a tragic accident.
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:58 am

Brettbrett21

BA retired flight number BA223 because this was the flight number which was consistently cancelled towards the end of last year due to terrorism fears. (LHR - IAD)

Mark


[Edited 2004-09-02 18:58:37]
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22right
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:58 am

You can understand why after they get so much publicity - I certainly wouldn't want to fly on a Swiss Air flight 111....

Dont you worry... it wont be possible to do that anymore for other than that one reason. Big grin
"I never apologize! I am sorry, but that's the way it is!" - Homer Simpson
 
brettbrett21
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:00 am

7LBAC111

Cheers for that, sorry the reason slipped my mind.

Brett
i'm so excited i wish i could wet my pants!
 
SafetyDude
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:01 am

This has been discussed at length many times in quite a few forums and no new information ever comes up. Do a search on the topic.

-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:04 am


I remember Egyptair has changed the JFK-CAI flight number from MS990 to MS9** after the B763 crash. They maintained MS843/844 for TUN although the B735 crash...

 
Clipper002
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:57 am

I remember back in the early 70's when we were putting 707's all over the place, we did not change the flight numbers. But when Pan Am 103 was blown up we changed the flight number the very next day.

Ed
Ed
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:02 am

Didn't AA1 once have a crash, and they kept the number?
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Corpsnerd09
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:12 am

AA001 Crash on March 1, 1962: (From NTSB Website)

NTSB Identification: NYC62A0022
14 CFR Part 121 Scheduled operation of AMERICAN AIRLINES INC
Event occurred Thursday, March 01, 1962 in JAMAICA, NY
Aircraft: BOEING 707, registration: N7506A, Flight No.: 001

LOCATION AIRCRAFT DATA INJURIES FLIGHT PILOT DATA F S M/N PURPOSE JAMAICA,NY BOEING 707 CR- 8 0 0 SCHED DOM PASSG SRV AIRLINE TRANSPORT, AGE TIME - 1009 N7506A PX- 87 0 0 56, 18300 TOTAL HOURS, DAMAGE-DESTROYED OT- 0 0 0 1600 IN TYPE, INSTRUMENT RATED. NAME OF AIRPORT - NEW YORK INTL OPERATOR - AMERICAN AIRLINES,INC. DEPARTURE POINT INTENDED DESTINATION JAMAICA,NY LOS ANGELES,CALIF TYPE OF ACCIDENT PHASE OF OPERATION COLLISION WITH GROUND/WATER: UNCONTROLLED IN FLIGHT: CLIMB TO CRUISE PROBABLE CAUSE(S) SYSTEMS - FLIGHT CONTROL SYSTEMS: RUDDER AND RUDDER TAB CONTROL SYSTEM MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - MATERIAL FAILURE FIRE AFTER IMPACT REMARKS- RUDDER CTL SYS MALFUNCTION PRODUCED YAW,SIDESLIP AND ROLL,LED TO LOSS OF CTL.RECOV ACTION INEFFECT

This is from a flightview.com:

American Airlines
Flight Number 1 (AA1)
Departure
Airport: New York (Kennedy), NY
Scheduled Time: 9:00 AM, Sep 02
Actual Time: 9:14 AM, Sep 02
Arrival
Airport: Los Angeles, CA
Scheduled Time: 11:38 AM, Sep 02
Actual Time: 11:16 AM, Sep 02
Status: Landed
Equipment: B762

Funny how it's even the same (very similar) route!




[Edited 2004-09-02 21:13:38]
If you really want to do it, you will find a way; if you don't, you'll make excuses.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:13 am

I flew on a UA 232 for ORD-PHL 2 years ago
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Corpsnerd09
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:15 am

Also Avianca 11:

Crashed in 1973 (or 83) in the mountains near Barajas.

They still operate the flight, same route... except that Flight 11 is now MAD-BOG, instead of BOG-MAD.

Edit: Confirmed... it was 1983

[Edited 2004-09-02 21:19:27]
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PanAm747
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:17 am

Because of the improvements in communication, aviation accidents are much more discussed in the news (and places like a.net) for a longer period of time, whereas accidents from the 1960's and 1970's did not stay in public view as long, nor were the flight numbers as important in reporting. For example, how many people could tell me (without looking it up!!) the flight number of the TWA 727 that crashed on approach to IAD in December, 1974? A few, perhaps, but not a large number.

The first crashed flight number I remember being an integral part of the story would be PSA 182 in San Diego, CA, in September, 1978, because of the dramatic and horrifying pictures. The same story with AA 191 at O'Hare in May, 1979. It seems to me that after these accidents, it became standard operating procedure to talk about the accident by flight number, not just airline. For example, mention United 232, and most a.net members will know July, 1989, Sioux City, Iowa.

Eastern Airlines kept flight #401 after the December, 1972 accident. Same plane, same route, same flight number. Obviously, if people had misgivings about that flight number, they would have discontinued it. Modern times, however, seems to dictate a complete change of numbers when an accident has happened.
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Corpsnerd09
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:21 am

Isn't there an urban legend out there about the "ghost of flight 401"?
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Clipper002
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:53 am

Not to get off the subject but I had the distinct displeasure of having watched Eastern 66, B727 MSY/JFK as it hit the ILS approach posts on approach to rwy22R and then burst into flames as it slid down the runway. It was a very morbid sight knowing that individuals definitely survived the crash only to be burned to death. Eastern changed the flight number the very next day. That was back in the early 80's while I was still at JFK. I had just pulled onto the rooftop parking at the Pan Am UTB or Worldport as it was called and parked in front of the fence pointing to the East. The entire saga was right in front of me. Several days later when the a/c had been repositioned to our Hgr 17, several of us went over to see it following our afternoon shift. I took one lok at the sheered off cockpit and turned away. The Captain and Co-pilot had been decapitated which would explain the lack of any radio transmission following initial impact. It took quite a while to get those sights out of my mind and unfortunately I have witnessed several other fatal crashes since. When you get to spend you entire career at JFK and MIA, there are bound to be times that you just can't away from it.

Ed
Ed
 
Corpsnerd09
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:57 am

How were they decapitated?
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dsuairptman
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:01 am

Wasn't EA 66 a victim of microburst?
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kyair
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:10 am

TWA kept flight #800 (at least for awhile) because their New York/Paris flight had had that number since 1947 or 48.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
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Clipper002
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:30 am

They were decapitated when the top of the fuselage was peeled back as it went under the ILS pier. And it was a classic case of a microburst. The other one I was involved with our 727 at Kenner, LA on takeoff from MSY and hit a microburst and went straight in.

Ed
Ed
 
qr332
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:31 am

Rwylie77,
You can understand why after they get so much publicity - I certainly wouldn't want to fly on a Swiss Air flight 111....

Excuse my ignorance, but why not?

7LBAC111,
BA retired flight number BA223 because this was the flight number which was consistently cancelled towards the end of last year due to terrorism fears. (LHR - IAD)

Do they still havve problems with the flight that replaced it? Also, what aircraft did they operate on the flight?
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
22right
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:37 am

QR332 wrote:

Rwylie77,
You can understand why after they get so much publicity - I certainly wouldn't want to fly on a Swiss Air flight 111....

Excuse my ignorance, but why not?


I am not sure if you are asking this because you dont know about about Swissair 111. If so, please see:

http://aviation-safety.net/backgrounder/index.shtml

and click on Swissair 111

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brettbrett21
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:56 am

QR332

I'm pretty sure it was a 777.

Brett
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flybyguy
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 6:59 am

I don't think the general public remembers of incidents and flight numbers that are over a decade old, probably even some more recent events. My own parents and brother would step on an Egyptair 990, Swiss 111, or AA 587 knowing none the better.

The aviation enthusiast, however, would remember every aircraft, flight number, and aircraft type of every commercial airline incident since the inception of air travel.

Airlines will find little danger in recycling old flight numbers from old incidents if they happen to practice such policy.
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CO2BGR
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:23 am

TWA # 800 has crashed twice, once just after leaving JFK which we most know all too much about. The other was a 707 flying within europe in the 70's I believe. I think this was a checked suitcase bomb similar to the circumstances of PA 103.
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ramerinianair
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:37 am

Flight 1 on most airlines is reserved for service that utilizes their flagship A/C, has a high yield or that connects two large hubs.
ie. JFK-LAX on AA
IAH-HNL on CO
LAX-NRT on NW
LGA-PIT-LAX on US
ORD-HNL on UA
Note that flight 2 is usually the return trip. I think it is a marketing thing. Also, DL doesn't appear to have a flight 1.
TWA never to my knowledge had a flilght 800 after their 747 went down.
SR
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milesrich
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 8:09 am

The first TWA 800 crash, a 707, did so in Rome on a flight to Athens, in about 1965when an engine warning light came on, they tried to abort and hit a steam roller that was doing runway repairs. The Captain, Vernon Lowell, wrote a book about about Airline Safety after the accident, entitled, "Airline Safety is a Myth."
 
deltabobo
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 12:13 pm

BA 223 was a 747-400. Thats what I saw on the news.
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SFO2SVO
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:19 pm

Sibir (S7) have not retired flight 1047 (yet?)
I think they have done it after accidents before...
318-19-20-21 332 343 717 727 737-234578 743-4 752 763 772 D9/10 M11/8x/90 F70 RJ85 ATR72 SF340 E120 TU34/54 IL18/62/86/9
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Do Airlines Retire Flt #'s After A Crash?

Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:13 pm

After AS had the crash on January 31, 2000 which was flight 261, they retired the flight number the very next day and switched it to flight 262.
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