keesje
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Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:57 pm

7E7 rival comes to Northwest. Airbus A330-200 rolled out for show in Portland. PORTLAND -- The Airbus jet that will be the chief challenger to Boeing's 7E7 entered service here yesterday for the first time with a U.S. customer.
Northwest Airlines is using the A330-200 for non-stop daily operations between Portland and Tokyo. The planes replace older Northwest DC-10s that have been used on that route since June. San Francisco and then Seattle will be next to get the twin-engine Airbus plane.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/189010_airbusjet02.html

But now this, Boeing is using this introduction as 7E7 promotion!

Todd Blecher, a Boeing spokesman, said the introduction of the rival Airbus is part of a new era in air travel that will feature smaller, more fuel-efficient planes that can provide international service to smaller airports or markets, such as Portland. Blecher said Boeing already has orders for its new 7E7 line, with the first delivery expected in 2008. The new Boeing aircraft will compete with the Airbus model for long-range flights. "They will provide airlines a tool to open city pairs like Portland and Tokyo, or any number of city pairs around the world, by bringing the range and efficiency to smaller airplanes that had only been found on larger airplanes," Blecher said.

http://www.tribnet.com/business/story/5498138p-5436120c.html

Seems odd & opportunistic way of promotion but does he have a point ?

P.S. A330 at Portland ..
http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=350160&PHPSESSID=93cdd2868b5db3341c955edec63114a8
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777ER
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:20 pm

I think the Boeing person does have a point as the B7E7 will open up long haul markets for smaller airport. B7E7 customers will be able to offer their customers point to point services instead of going throu a major hub.
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N79969
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:46 pm

I think this makes sense. In its marketing Airbus likes to argue that its 4-engined A340-series are more appropriate for long-haul flying than the 2-engined B777. Airbus argued against the B777 getting an extenstion of up 207-minutes in the North Pacific. But now a 2-engined Airbus is being used for an ETOPS operation that involves flying across the North Pacific. You don't hear much of the "4-engines-4-long haul" out of Airbus right now.

The use of the relatively small A330 actually bolsters Boeing's idea of fragmentation. The A330 is an excellent airplane because its excellent range/payload performance on long-thin routes. The kind of routes which Boeing is targeting for the 7E7 and to a lesser extent the 772ER.
 
United Airline
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:56 pm

So when will NWA retire their last DC 10?
 
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solnabo
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:36 pm

Boeing belives in point-to-point with 7e7

Airbus belives in hub-to-hub with 380

What is this Boeingperson trying to say?

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N79969
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:51 pm

Under the Airbus hub-to-hub theory, a passenger would fly from PDX to LAX/SFO to board an A380 bound for Tokyo.

Under the fragmentation line of thinking, consumers prefer direct flights from origin to destination. The use of an A330 between Tokyo (a hub) and a Portland (a secondary city) supports Boeing's view of the future.

 
jeffrito
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promo

Sat Sep 04, 2004 12:12 am

... but does he have a point ?

Yep
 
radelow
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sat Sep 04, 2004 12:18 am

What I think this shows is that there will be a place for BOTH. There will *always* be a need for a large aircraft moving from congested big airport to congested big airport. The 7E7 at the same time will be moving people from small city to big city. I think it will end up being a good mix. I think the 7E7 will particularly shine in the very dense countries of Asia where there are many large cities with no necessary a huge amount of traffic moving between... Just my $0.02.

Mark
 
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sat Sep 04, 2004 12:21 am

"Liu said she was uncomfortable talking about the $80 million figure, but she did not deny that is what Northwest paid for the plane."

-Laura Liu, vice president of international marketing and revenue for Northwest.

The list for the A332 is $146.5 million to $153 million. Shit, at those prices, I'll take two.

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airbazar
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sat Sep 04, 2004 12:25 am

Funny thing about the hub-to-hub comments is that neither LAX nor SFO are a hub to any airline that will be flying the A380 to those airports. So there goes that theory. In fact, except for LH, no airline that has ordered the A380 has more than one hub.

The A380 will be used between major airports that have certain limitation when it comes to increasing frequency of flights, regardless of whether it is a hub or not.
 
keesje
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sat Sep 04, 2004 12:34 am

Funny thing about the hub-to-hub comments is that neither LAX nor SFO are a hub to any airline that will be flying the A380 to those airports. So there goes that theory.

Well LHR will soon be stuffed with A380's & not only VS ones..

I think both p-to-p & h-to-h will grow.

Traffic is forecasted to grow 5%/yr, the Hubs are still growing & somehow ....

I cannot believe the 1000+ B747's will all be replaced by smaller aircraft...
but don't nail me down on that one..

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gigneil
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sat Sep 04, 2004 2:15 am

There is more than sufficient room in this world for both strategems.

Both point-to-point and aggregated traffic will grow, and both the 7E7 and 380 will be the pinnacle of technology in those spaces.

Eventually, Airbus will compete with the 7E7, and Boeing the 380, and yay we'll have all new aircraft in both major spaces.

When Airbus and Boeing compete, you win.

N
 
burnsie28
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promo

Sat Sep 04, 2004 2:19 am

Or could it be a clue that NW has already bought the 7e7  Wow! It could happen, it might just happen.
 
Leneld
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sat Sep 04, 2004 2:31 am

I sure hope not..I really do like the A300-200 flying in NWA colors out of PDX..
 
MSPXJGuy
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sat Sep 04, 2004 3:38 am

I doubt NW bought the 7E7 but Im sure they're paying close attention to it. It would work well with their Asia network. They could very easily throw a 7E7 from point to point service from their North American hubs and rely less on NRT. I don't know if this will happen or not. NW is in love with their hub model but lately they have been straying a little bit with setting up focus cities in MKE, IND, and GRR
 
whitehatter
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sat Sep 04, 2004 3:44 am

To get back on track...


what the Boeing guy is saying is that the A330 is in the same general sector that the 7E7 is aimed at. Therefore the 7E7 is justified by the routes and capacity already in service, and presumably Boeing's product will be able to match and surpass the economics of the A330.

So the 7E7 isn't just a speculative design; it's based on sound economics and existing movements in the airline industry.
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frontiers4ever
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:01 am

"Airbus argued against the B777 getting an extenstion of up 207-minutes in the North Pacific"

I thought they were looking for a 330 minute ETOPS for the 777-300ER

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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:07 am

....they are, eventually.
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N1120A
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sat Sep 04, 2004 5:57 am

Well, LAX and SFO are hubs for UA, LH's STAR partner. What airbus means by hub to hub flying is PAX connecting from domestic flights (with whoever) to international flights (with whoever) in major cities with very busy airports
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ramerinianair
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:59 am

Sounds to me like the end of Huge Fortress hubs. This has the potential to be the introduction of point to point flying again. Any thoughts?
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StevenUhl777
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:11 am

NW is pretty stupid for replacing a 747 on their SEA-NRT route, a flight that has been in place for a very long time, with an airbus.

Even the local media here (at least KOMO-TV) openly criticized the use of an Airbus on a flight out of Seattle.

If NW want to continue being profitable on this route, they'll need to replace it with a BOEING built aircraft.
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Leneld
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:38 am

I might be wrong, but one of the reason why the flight was downgraded in Seattle was the start of the Narita flight from PDX.
 
Carpethead
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sat Sep 04, 2004 12:25 pm

What the 332 & 7E7 do in Asia will allow large-hub to medium-size cities in Europe & N.America. In Asia, each country with the exception of China is dominated by one large city. Singapore-Singapore, Tokyo-Japan, Seoul-S.Korea, etc. Even China, int'l services are currently dominated by Beijing & Shanghai. The demographics in Europe and US are not concentrated in one city so the 767-sized airplane ruled from the mid-80s on. Both Boeing's 7E7 and Airbus A380 will be market hits come 2015.

If someone is unhappy with NW's 332 service out of SEA to NRT then use the UA's 777 flight. UA will be more than happy to have their business.
 
malb777
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sat Sep 04, 2004 3:06 pm

So when will NW resign the DC9?
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keesje
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:21 pm

If NW want to continue being profitable on this route, they'll need to replace it with a BOEING built aircraft.

Can you imagine the same thing being said in the mdia about Boeing flying to "Airbus home" airports ?

I can´t.

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
vatveng
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promo

Sat Sep 04, 2004 5:49 pm

So when will NW resign the DC9?

wow, it took 23 whole replies for this to come up... must be a record!
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sun Sep 05, 2004 3:20 am

Can you imagine the same thing being said in the mdia about Boeing flying to "Airbus home" airports ?

I can´t.


I can't either... Very few people in SEA give a rats ass if we lose 2 742's for A332's... If they are pissed, its becasue of lower seat availability, not brand name... we still got EVA, China Airlines Cargo, BA, etc... I'm not so certain anyone in the media here actually said this. No source was quoted, only a staion named.
 
spk
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RE: Boeing Using NWA Trans-pac A332's As 7E7 Promotion

Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:19 am

Long-haul operations to smaller airports is a nice idea but there are other factors than the aircraft specs that the airline must consider. Handling of crew accommodation in many more smaller airports can be a huge expense and operational challenge. Having proper and effective maintenance facilities for the aircraft type at each smaller airports are also another huge obstacle. Those issues are easier to handle at large hub airports since they have more than adequate facility to serve large scale long haul operations.

As of today, we have not seen that many conversion from "hub" to "point-to-point" model yet. Yes, sometimes airlines replace larger aircraft with many smaller aircrafts but they do so mostly because of demand or to add frequency. We have not yet seen airlines starting serious long-haul operation to the second-tier airports just yet. They keep long haul operations at larger, well known airports and, in a sense, remain in the hub model.