ourboeing
Posts: 328
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:52 pm

Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 3:51 am

I was on:

http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/?file=ficheopp&opp=American%20Airlines

and found something very interesting. If you see, most of the TWA aircraft acquired by AA are in storage. Is it because of a different engine type..for example the 757s? Were TWA 757 PW powered? I have flown on those a few times and somehow don't seem to remember and they were all less than 5 years old?? Same goes with MD 81/82/83. Most of them in storage are the ones acquired from TWA. Another interesting thing I found was that out of all the 717s from TWA, AA has held on to just 1. I know most of them are now flying with Airtran and every 10 minutes one flies past my house on its approach into BWI Smile

OUR BOEING
 
airxliban
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 12:14 pm

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:05 am

AA did not keep any 762s or 763s of TWA if I am not mistaken partially because these airframes were old and had many many hours.

They did keep some of the 752s and in fact they are still flying. AA 757-231s are PW powered.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jeremy Irish/Cactus Wings



They got rid of all the 717s, partially due to the high lease rates I believe. I don't know anything about AA holding on to 1?

And they also did keep some ex-TW MD-80s although they aren't nearly as nice as the AA models.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Tim Perkins


PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2820
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:05 am

Just because they are the same type, doesn't mean that they don't have the same options. For example, all of TWA's Boeings had the overhead switches work opposite the normal boeing layout because that is the way all of TW's other aircraft were set up. Having different avionics, and other things like that make it pretty hard for a pilot to transition between the two easily. Also, AA has many of it's own planes parked. Why would they want to be flying these aircraft? Many of the interiors have yet to be changed to the AA style and from a passenger's view this also adds to the fleet commonality.

I can also assure you that AA is no longer flying the 717 and if it does still have one (which I doubt) they'll be getting rid of it as soon as the lease expires or they find a buyer.
DMI
 
JAXpax
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 9:52 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:07 am

I believe on TWA's B767-300s they had 3 different exit configurations and about a half dozen different galley configurations.

AA is looking to return some aircraft to service from the desert with their ramping up of service in the remainder of the year (namely in DFW).
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:14 am

Actually...
AA has NO TWA DC-9-20/30/40/50 all were parked (fleet size was 32)
AA has NO 717-200s all are flying in other carrier fleets (fleet size was 18)
AA has been parking the PW 2037 powered B757-200s slowly as the leases end (Total fleet size was 27 in TWA days)
AA has already parked the B767-300ERs from TWA days (Powered by PW 4000 series) (Fleet size was 7)
AA has parked 27 MD80s total some of them are from the TWA original 108 MD80s from TWA. Some of the parked MD80s are originally AA metal. The MD80s were parked as heavy maint checks came due. The majority of the TWA fleet was made up by these and the majority of them are still flying with AA.

Hence the statement most TWA planes are parked is incorrect.

Most implies over 50% and the fact is that over 50% of former TWA metal is flying at AA still to this day. The fleet consists of soon to be returned PW powered 757-200ERs and MD82/MD83 aircraft that are still in service with no scheduled removal from service.

AA has also parked its 727-100 727-200 and F100 fleet entirely during the same period.

Of course less then 20% of the TWA employees remain and by some counts less then 10%

The TWA MD80s are amongst the newest built and the TWA 757-200s are more comfortable and modern then the AA originals as well.
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:17 am

ALL TWA B767-200s had been retired prior to AA taking over TWA.

Remember the new plane every 10 days for TWA for the two year prior to BK.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:25 am

According to AA.com, they still have 23 F100s
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
UnitedTristar
Posts: 839
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:45 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In St

Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:29 am


And they also did keep some ex-TW MD-80s although they aren't nearly as nice as the AA models


That's about the craziest thing I have herd from some one here. Most of TW's fleet of MD80's were the youngest around...They took every one of the delivery's for the last year of MD80 production. Before you make comments like this you should check your facts!

-m

 Big thumbs up
 
JAXpax
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 9:52 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:29 am

According to AA.com, they still have 23 F100s

The last couple F-100s are retired on Tuesday.
 
JAXpax
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 9:52 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:39 am

That's about the craziest thing I have herd from some one here. Most of TW's fleet of MD80's were the youngest around...They took every one of the delivery's for the last year of MD80 production

I guess you aren't counting these then, which probably include the ones sitting in the desert:
Built 1981: N922TW, N924TW, N928TW, N929TW
Built 1982: N921TW
Built 1983: N901TW, N902TW, N903TW, N904TW, N905TW, N906TW, N907TW, N908TW, N909TW, N911TW, N912TW
Built 1984: N913TW, N914TW, N915TW, N916TW, N950U, N951U
Built 1985: N952U, N953U, N917TW, N918TW, N919TW, N920TW, N960TW, N923TW, N926TW
Built 1986: N925TW, N927TW, N9305N
Built 1987: N954U, N955U, N931TW, N9302B, N9303K, N9304C, N9306T, N9307R, N9407R, EI-BWD

I'll stop with just those, as I think it illustrates the point.


Before you make comments like this you should check your facts!

As should you.
 
UnitedTristar
Posts: 839
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:45 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In St

Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:45 am

jaxpax

You obviously missed the fact that TW had the last 34 aircraft off the line. To say those weren't as nice as AA's 15 year old planes...That's crazy. Granted some of their birds were just as old as AA's but a lot weren't.

Those would be the facts I'm talking about!!!!!!  Nuts

-m

 Big thumbs up
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:56 am

Jax Pax...

Being very familiar with TWA in its final years...

How come you included airframes that were retired prior to AA taking TWA?

Also.. When one comments as to the condition of the TWA MD80s vs AA MD80s it should be noted that in the final two years of operations TWA had the industries HIGHEST dispatch reliability rate.

The only negative is that AA uninstalled the AirPhones as another poster mentioned and did it half way leaving gaping holes in seatbacks throughout the plane. Other then that the TWA MD80s were in far better condition when delivered to AA. Part of the standardization included the removal of advance avionics to bring them down to AA standard configs.

The 757s are in far better condition then AAs fleet with modern IFE vs the AA CRTs and glass cockpits that again had more advanced avionics. TWAs 757 fleet was also fully ETOPS compliant and had ER fuel tank mods allowing them to fly HNL-STL nonstop, JFK-LIS and other routes. (similar to what CO does on some routes)
 
JAXpax
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 9:52 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 5:02 am

You obviously missed the fact that TW had the last 34 aircraft off the line. To say those weren't as nice as AA's 15 year old planes...That's crazy. Granted some of their birds were just as old as AA's but a lot weren't.

Cockpit differences were numerous between TWA's latest aircraft and the status quo AA MD-80. Having ridden up front with some AA crews in ex-TW machines, let me just say that it's probably for the best they aren't flying more of them without a greater amount of training or further avionics standardization. Hearing about a number of incidents where the INS wasn't properly initialized spring to mind....

How come you included airframes that were retired prior to AA taking TWA?

I was going off of a fleet list dated 2001.


I've flown on a number of ex-TW aircraft in the last year (primarily DFW-STL, DFW-MCI) that still have the TW interior, though I can't speak for holes where inflight phones used to be as I haven't been in coach on one in awhile. From what I recall, the phones are still there in First, or they are inside of an opening armrest where they aren't normally visible.
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 5:09 am

JAXpax

The F class seats had the phones in the sides of the F class seat with each seat having an individual phone. In Y class the phones were above the tray table in the center seat on the three side and on the aisle seat on the two side.

The cockpit differences between the AA machines and TW machines were numerous, But I like the TW cockpits better. (other then the switches are the opposite from every other airline)

The 757-200s were ordered with most options. In humor the 757s had modern EFIS while the 767-200/300s were on with Trans Atlantic HF radio.
 
JAXpax
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 9:52 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 5:12 am

The F class seats had the phones in the sides of the F class seat with each seat having an individual phone. In Y class the phones were above the tray table in the center seat on the three side and on the aisle seat on the two side.

My memory is probably foggy but I recall on some TWA MD-80s where the leather part of the center armrest in First lifted up and the airphone was inside. Perhaps this was on the older aircraft.
 
UnitedTristar
Posts: 839
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:45 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In St

Sun Sep 05, 2004 5:15 am

You cannot count a lack of fleet training by AA for TW equipment as a problem with TW's equipment...As mentioned above they had to be "dumbed down" to standardized. Their flight deck avionics were much more advanced on TW. But I cannot blame the crews but they simply weren't trained. But now that they have been standardized...There should be no problems and TW's birds will end up being the last MD80's in the fleet seeing as they are the youngest. Saying some how they are lessor then AA's simply because their avionics weren't the same...That's silly!  Nuts

-m

 Big thumbs up
 
FlagshipAZ
Posts: 3192
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 12:40 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 5:36 am

American has the very last MD-82 produced, which was built for TWA. It was delivered in 1999. TWA had a grand total of 103 MD-82/83s, 30 717-200s, 27 757-200s, 10 762s & 12 763s. AA adopted, albeit temporarily, all the MD-80s, the 717s, the 757s and only 9 763s. Only the majority, if not all, of the MD-80 fleet are staying with AA for the long term. The 717s are gone, the 763s were soon disposed of just after the takeover, and the 757s are being return to the owners as soon as the leases are up. Hopefully this will clear up some of the confusion here. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
JAXpax
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 9:52 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 5:40 am

Saying some how they are lessor then AA's simply because their avionics weren't the same...That's silly!

Actually AA's have lesser equipment. They are still using paper enroute charts to fly those MD-80s.

Only annoying thing about the standardization... some of the ex-TWA aircraft have the new interiors, but the inseat power outlets aren't yet functional.
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 5:52 am

The TWA 767-200s were all gone before AA and many went to Airborne Express now AX and DHL.

Also the DC-9s were retired at the time of closing.

I show 7 767-300s not 9 as 2 were sent back to the leasors again prior to the March 15 closing.
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:00 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 6:07 am

ARGHHHH!
Time for a vocabulary lesson gentlemen.
THEN and THAN, believe it or not, mean two different things and are two separate words!!

"I like chocolate more THAN vanilla"
"I will have chocolate first, THEN vanilla"


Back to Aviation.

The hightlights of this thread so far:
Between 10%-20% of TWA employees remain with AA.
A significant amount of TWA's fleet sit in the desert.
That isn't a merger, it's a bloodbath! But should we be surprised?, given AA's recent history of handling mergers with AirCal and RenoAir.
No matter what the press release may read, AA never wanted the STL hub, instead their intent was to take away competition from it's ORD and DFW hubs.

The argument that TWA would have shut down if were not for AA stepping in as the Knight in Shining Armor is horse crap.
What's the difference?
I would have rather seen TWA succeed or fail on it's own.
But what's done is done.........
Delete this User
 
AA717driver
Posts: 1502
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:27 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 6:48 am

The AA pilots who were flying converted TWA FMS aircraft(the final 30 or so MD80's produced) most certainly did not get enough training. AND, since AA's fleet is SO standardized, I don't really think they knew what they were getting into flying a radically non-standard aircraft.

With TWA's DC9 fleet, a hodgepodge of MD80's and the 767-200's and -300's coming from different operators, we were well-versed in flying a non-standard fleet and knew you REALLY had to figure out where everything was BEFORE you pushed back.

Now, TWA pilots encountered the same problem with the FMS -80's when they came on line. Those of us who had 767 experience(same FMS) who commuted on the jumpseat spent that time explaining WTF was going on with the 'box'. Everyone finally got into the sim and got trained but as AA found out, you can't train that type of thing with a bulletin.

I thought it was odd that we need a 5 week course to transition to the AA -80's and the AA guys need a bulletin.  Insane It's really not fair to those crews to throw them into that situation.TC
FL450, M.85
 
airxliban
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 12:14 pm

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:12 am

i wasn't referring to age.

And they also did keep some ex-TW MD-80s although they aren't nearly as nice as the AA models

That's about the craziest thing I have herd from some one here. Most of TW's fleet of MD80's were the youngest around...They took every one of the delivery's for the last year of MD80 production. Before you make comments like this you should check your facts!


what i meant by the TW ones not being as nice has to do with the configuration.

i've flown on 5 AA MD-80s and 3 TWA MD-80s, all after the take over and the AA ones are just plain nicer!
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
tekelberry
Posts: 1309
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 6:37 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 12:55 pm

That isn't a merger, it's a bloodbath! But should we be surprised?, given AA's recent history of handling mergers with AirCal and RenoAir.

It sure wasn't a merger; it was an acquisition.
 
blink182
Posts: 5269
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 3:09 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:20 pm

Does anybody know why AA did not put leather headrests on the ex-TW MD-80s?

I recently was supposed to fly one(before MX took the aircraft out of service) and upon boarding I noticed that they lacked the leather headrests as well as the usual sidewall design for AA.

I found the normal leather headrests on AA to be a LOT more comfortable than the non existent ones on the ex TW aircraft.

blink
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
ramerinianair
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:03 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:48 pm

AMEN to thant Stirling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and that's all I have to say for now.
SR
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
NBGSkyGod
Posts: 807
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 7:30 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 3:13 pm

once again checking the facts...TWA took one of the last MD80 series built, I know this because I got a picture of it haning in my office next to the douglas DC2 that was at LGB.
Pilots are idots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
757drvr
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:52 pm

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Sun Sep 05, 2004 11:48 pm

Actually AA's have lesser equipment. They are still using paper enroute charts to fly those MD-80s.

They still use paper charts on ALL the MD-8O's not to mention the fleet. Just because you have EFIS, that doesn't mean that you don't need paper charts. You must still verify the aircraft data against the charts. Where there is a discrepancy, the chart is always right until proven otherwise. BTW most of AA's MD-80's have EFIS too.

As far as TWA aircraft vs AA aircraft, there is no comparison. I fly on both 757's all the time and from a pax point of view, the AA 757's are a lot nicer than the TWA in my opinion. AA is refurbishing the interior on the TWA MD-80's. On those aircraft you can't tell the difference between AA or TWA.
 
ramerinianair
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:03 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:15 am

If you do a search on the boeing website, you will find that the last 29 MD-80 that were made were delivered to TW! It is becoming evident that people want and do look to blame the bad profits or lack there of since 2001 on TW. It is not the case and espeically in this instance-many TW a/c were better and newer than AA's.
"The argument that TWA would have shut down if were not for AA stepping in as the Knight in Shining Armor is horse crap.
What's the difference?
I would have rather seen TWA succeed or fail on it's own.
But what's done is done........."
SR
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
NightFlier
Posts: 257
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 3:44 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:30 am

I agree Ourboeing I was talking to my uncle yesterday and he was telling me about all the new airplanes TWA had received before they went bankrupt. It would make more sense to put the old AA planes in storage and use the somewhat new TWA planes. NF
Airplanes are only as good as the people who fly&fix them.
 
UA744KSFO
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 5:55 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Mon Sep 06, 2004 3:20 am

"The argument that TWA would have shut down if were not for AA stepping in as the Knight in Shining Armor is horse crap.
What's the difference?
I would have rather seen TWA succeed or fail on it's own.
But what's done is done........."

So true! AA never really wanted TWA, but this was a response to the proposed UA acquisition of US. It makes no sense to me that the DOJ approved the AA/TW deal but not the UA/US deal.
 
flyibaby
Posts: 717
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:23 am

RE: Why R Most Of The TWA A/c Acquired By AA In Storage

Mon Sep 06, 2004 5:39 am

NightFlier,
Not that I don't agree with you, but I have to say it costs less to fly a plane that is paid for than one with high-lease payments. Same idea UA is using by parking their 777's and flying with the 747's. I'm not sure if my theory is workable in this case though as I believe all of AA's aircraft have been borrowed against for cash.

Who is online