planekrazy777
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A380-F

Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:23 pm

I was just wondering how many pallets of cargo would a A380 hold compare to a 747 400F. I think the 747 holds 30 pallets main deck and 9 pallets plus 2 ake's (baggage can). or will the 380 hold cargo on the top deck. probably not but it would be cool. they could use some sort of a elevator lift from main deck to upper.
 
maddy
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RE: A380-F

Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:45 pm

According to Airbus homepage:

"The A380 Freighter will carry a 330,000 lbs/150 tonnes over 5,600nm/10,400km on its three decks with the capability to carry 150 tonnes of payload on standard pallets, on all three decks, over more than 5,600 nm/10,400 km"

Containers: Upper deck 17-25

Main deck 29-33

Lower deck 13

And obviously the A380F will use it´s upper deck:

http://www.airbus.com/product/a380f_cabin_layouts.asp





[Edited 2004-09-05 12:56:55]
 
greasespot
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RE: A380-F

Sun Sep 05, 2004 10:13 pm

Anyone else see the awesome potential for a combi........PAX on top and freight downstairs or vis versa..

But then there would be no room for the spa and bowling alley.

Greasespot
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
Ken777
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RE: A380-F

Sun Sep 05, 2004 11:28 pm

Depending on the performance of the 380 and it's success on various routes the some airlines might decide to use it as a combi. In a way I'm surprised that Airbus has not been selling it as one from the start. Wonder how much it would cost to convert the pax version to a combi?
 
adriaticus
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RE: A380-F

Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:20 am

<< they could use some sort of a elevator lift from main deck to upper. >>

No need for that. The upper main deck will be loaded using standard loaders through a left door forward the wings, while the lower main deck (I love how this sounds  Smile/happy/getting dizzy) will be loaded through another left door aft the wings. At the same time, the bellies will be unloaded from fwd and aft doors on the right side of the plane, using standard loaders.

FedEx has calculated the standard unloading time of the A380-300F shouldn't take more than three or four more minutes than unloading an MD-11F - which stands at 17 minutes nowadays.

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rdu777
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RE: A380-F

Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:11 am

Funny you should bring up this topic. In my CAD class I'm in the process of designing a fictional cargo loader for the top deck as my semester long project. I've checked a lot with Airbus and Fedex's websites, along with others, and have found that the A380 should hold around 66 pallets. This is double the MD-11, 33 pallets, which is why A380s will be flying to destinations where two MD-11s typically fly to each day.
 
Oftwftwoab
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RE: A380-F

Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:30 am

Rdu777

Perhaps you can answer my posted question on the A380 pax/freight mix:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1728187/
 
N1120A
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RE: A380-F

Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:41 pm

The main problem the A380F has is that it cannot take outsized cargo. Why you ask? It does not have a nose door option. This is one of the main reasons the freight version is not selling as well as it could be
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: A380-F

Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:25 pm

The main problem the A380F has is that it cannot take outsized cargo. Why you ask? It does not have a nose door option. This is one of the main reasons the freight version is not selling as well as it could be

The market for aircraft that can take outsize cargo is not that large, and engineering and building such an option for the 380 would probaly cost more than the potential sales increase.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
N1120A
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RE: A380-F

Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:28 pm

Then why does the 747F sell so well?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
bill142
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RE: A380-F

Mon Sep 06, 2004 5:24 pm

747 was designed with cargo in mind, while the A380 as been designed for passenger use and adapted for freight hauling.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: A380-F

Mon Sep 06, 2004 11:41 pm

Exactly. For the same reason that Boeing has chosen not to compete with the 380 directly, so Airbus has chosen not to compete with the 744F directly. The market is crowded enough.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
PhilSquares
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RE: A380-F

Mon Sep 06, 2004 11:54 pm

Just as a comparison, the 744 will haul 120 tonnes the same distance as a 380F. In addition, no outsized cargo. So, for FedEx it might make sense. Generally, the 380F will not be gross weight limited, but more likely volume limited.

Interesting side note, the 380 engine (fan section) will not be able to be transported on a 380F. It will only fit into a 744F via the nose door.

Fly fast, live slow
 
maddy
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RE: A380-F

Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:07 am

"Interesting side note, the 380 engine (fan section) will not be able to be transported on a 380F. It will only fit into a 744F via the nose door."

I don´t understand why an engine should be transported in the A380??
You also can carry it on the outside:


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Starlionblue
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RE: A380-F

Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:12 am

IIRC the 380 will not be able to carry a spare engine on the wing.

But then again, neither can the 777.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
PhilSquares
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RE: A380-F

Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:32 am

My post had two points.

The first being for a 30 tonne increase in payload, the price tag on a 380F is very substantial. I question if it's worth it.

The second point was I think it's very ironic for a "freighter" not to be able to carry a engine internally that is used on the same aircraft. I, personally, think the 380F will not make a very good freighter due to it's inability to carry outsize freight. I am making a specific difference between a small package carrier and a freight operator.

Finally, the 380/F has no provisions for a "5th pod".
Fly fast, live slow
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: A380-F

Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:38 am

The first being for a 30 tonne increase in payload, the price tag on a 380F is very substantial. I question if it's worth it.

Good point, but that's only the nominal price tag. What about operational costs?


I, personally, think the 380F will not make a very good freighter due to it's inability to carry outsize freight

The vast majority of freighters out there have no provision for outsize freight, including a large number of 747 freighter conversions. Most freight is palletized anyway. There is rarely a need to carry huge loads by air. Very few loads need a huge nose door or tail ramp. Even cars are not a problem for this DC-8:




The second point was I think it's very ironic for a "freighter" not to be able to carry a engine internally that is used on the same aircraft.

I can see the irony, but can the 727F, the 757F, the DC-8F, the ATR42F?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: A380-F

Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:44 am

I can see the irony, but can the 727F, the 757F, the DC-8F, the ATR42F?

There is substantial global support for these aircraft, as there are hundreds and even thousands of examples in service. In 2010, there might be 50 A380s worldwide, with relativly few maintenance bases...

And ASIAK, only the Trent 900 can fit inside a 747F. The GP7000 must be disassembled first
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PhilSquares
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RE: A380-F

Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:45 am

I don't know about the ATR, but the rest of the aircraft can carry their own engines.

By outsize cargo, I don't mean palletized cargo that's large. I am talking about things like oil drilling equipment, large vehicles, large helicopters. Those will not fit in the side door of a SF. I have flown SFs and have watched the loadmasters try to load things that should have fit through the side door. Believe me, it's not a pretty sight!

My point was FedEx has a different requirement for their "freighter". If you look at CX, SQ and NW the majority of their freighters are pure freighters (in the case of SQ 100%). From a marketing point of view you have many more markets available. One of my last trips through SHJ from BRU we had large military vehicles onboard. They would only fit through the nose door.
Fly fast, live slow
 
DABZF
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RE: A380-F

Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:49 am

Just a short comment about the nose door issue...
Less than 1% of the total freight flying today on scheduled services (not counting charters) will actually need to be loaded through a nose door!
I like driving backwards in the fog cause it doesn't remind me of anything - Chris Cornell
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: A380-F

Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:49 am

By outsize cargo, I don't mean palletized cargo that's large. I am talking about things like oil drilling equipment, large vehicles, large helicopters. Those will not fit in the side door of a SF. I have flown SFs and have watched the loadmasters try to load things that should have fit through the side door. Believe me, it's not a pretty sight!

I agree that outsize is "very large", but I simply don't see these capabilities being used as often as you do. But then again that's just a vaguely informed opinion  Big grin

Still, if outsize cargo were that common, a 747 freighter conversion would maybe include the option to fit a nose door. AFAIK, this has never happened.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
PhilSquares
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RE: A380-F

Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:01 am

Iirc, it has been looked at, but considered too expensive for SF freighter conversion.

I remember looking at the waybills on that flight and the shipping costs were out of this world. For each vehicle to be shipped from JFK-SHJ the shipping costs were over US$33000/vehicle.

I am currently in ANC and flew a 744F in and we had just about 120 tonnes of cargo. Again, there was plenty of "outsized" cargo on board.
Fly fast, live slow
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: A380-F

Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:04 am

Of course there was plenty of outsized cargo on board. There are few options for that cargo. But this doesn't mean that you can look at the typical load of an An-124 or a 744F and extrapolate from that the average mix of outsize cargo and non for the total volume of world cargo.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
leelaw
Posts: 4520
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RE: A380-F

Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:11 am

IMO, the A380 makes a lot more sense and has more market potential as a "package freighter" rather than as an ultra-high capacity passenger transport. The jury is still out on the "plane as a cruiseship" concept contemplated by VS and SQ. It's not entirely unlikely that over time the ratio between pure passenger and pure cargo, cargo/pax combi (potential) versions of the A380 in the worldwide fleet will begin to invert. Industry observers often forget that approximately 60, or 10% of the 744 fleet are configured as combis.

[Edited 2004-09-06 18:43:33]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
patroni
Posts: 1372
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RE: A380-F

Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:41 am

Interesting side note, the 380 engine (fan section) will not be able to be transported on a 380F. It will only fit into a 744F via the nose door.

Definitely not via the nose door. The 747-200/300/400 F can take pallets up to 2.40m through the nose door and up to 3m through the side cargo door. The reason is the upper deck which lowers the ceiling of the forward part of the main deck.

So the nose door is good for long shipments such as oil drilling equipment, masts, etc, but big aircraft engines such as the RR Trent are always loaded via the SCD.

The A380 however will only be able to take 2.40m high pallets, so regardless which door you try, an engine won't fit in.

I also don't believe that a standard loader will be able to reach the A380 upper deck.

Cheers,
Tom
 
gigneil
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RE: A380-F

Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:45 am

Just as a comparison, the 744 will haul 120 tonnes the same distance as a 380F

600nm shorter distance, actually. The A380 can haul 155 tons 5600 nm vs 112 tons 4970 nm for the 747-400ERF.

Package/palletized freight is the #1 growth freight market. The A380 is optimized for that space, and is willing to let the 747-400ER take the outsize market.

N

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