rwylie77
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Why No 747's At AA?

Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:49 pm

I know a lot of other airlines do not operate any 747's, but American Airlines is the largest airline in the world and I'm surprised that they do not even operate a couple, and appear not to have done for quite a while. The same with Delta I believe. Is there a reason, such as they are more of a domestic US airline and do not fly as many long haul international flights such as United? Or is it because there are so many US airlines flying internationally they go for a higher frequency of smaller planes? It just seems stupid on busy routes where slots are at a premium such as ORD/JFK to LHR, which BA and VS both use 744's on (plus A346 on some).
 
luv2fly
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:59 pm

I think you answered your own question smaller planes offering more flights. Remember with each additional fleet type you add, it adds to the bottom line, training for the employees, spare parts to have on hand and the list goes on and on. Remember pre 9-11 AA operated 11 different fleet types for mainline aircraft, they are now down to 6 types.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:03 pm

AA did have some 747s a while back, but I believe they were unhappy with their performance, and opted for the DC-10/MD-11 instead. They used to operate them between LAX and JFK I believe, but only for a short time.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:03 pm

They got to be the world's largest airline without 747's. They must be doing something right!!
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:09 pm

Well you can also say that they are the world's largest, NOT BEST, airline through NOT having a 747. Since you need more planes to haul around the same number of people...
 Big grin
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
rwylie77
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:18 pm

Bobnwa - in fact I would say the opposite! They are certainly the largest (by number of aircraft), but maybe this is why they are not the largest by market capitalisation or profits! Would reducing the number of planes by introducing the 744 or A380 to replace smaller 767's etc increase their profitability?
 
luv2fly
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:20 pm

AA would argue it is all about offering choices and one flight on a bigger plane does not do that.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
ckfred
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:42 pm

AA operated either 747-100s or -200s in the 70s, and they didn't make much money. It also operated the 747SP in the late 80s and early 90s when it started flying DFW-NRT.

I think the planes last flew DFW-LGW. They were a stop gap until AA got enough MD-11s.

When AA started flying trans-Atlantic, AA made a decision not to invest in aircraft with 4 engines, as a cost-savings measure. That's according to friend of mine who flies AA 757/767.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:09 pm

Hey, you don't need big planes to haul a lot of PAX, just look at Southwest. AA has gone to a policy of only flying twins. They have stated this many times andthey seem to do ok with it. One of the main reasons they don't have 747s is because they have never had a really big Asia presence. What they have had, they have been able to serve with MD-11s, DC-10s and 777s. Again, they did have 741s when everyone had 741s and bought some TWA SPs as a stopgap, as said before. They really don't serve the highest traffic routes internationally and the ones that do have a lot of traffic, they fly against a lot of competition and choose frequency over capacity. They also seem to not care about using up their LHR slots on better routes and using Gatwick for secondary routes like DFW and RDU.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 12:49 am

AA decided that it couldn't even [profitably] fill 773As yearround, what on Earth would they want/need with 747s?  Nuts
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
rwylie77
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 12:59 am

ConcordeBoy - that is very worrying if BA is able to run 744's from LHR to the US profitably and AA thinks it is unable to fill anything more than a 772...lack of confidence in their own product vs. BA and Virgin?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:36 am

lack of confidence in their own product vs. BA and Virgin?

...or the fact that it has eight gateways through which to funnel transoceanic traffic, compared to their two. You decide  Laugh out loud








[Edited 2004-09-07 18:41:54]
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Clipper002
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:45 am

American did indeed operate 742's. Two of them were converted to frieghters and leased to Pan Am. N9673 and N9674 if my memory serves me correctly. The best thing about them was that they were noseloaders, no playing with pallets on a loader 20 feet up in the air.

Ed
Ed
 
JAXpax
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:48 am

I'm sorry, but I fail to see any reason why American should be presently operating B747s. Did I miss the day in school where they taught that "Your airline should plan its fleet around cool looking aircraft" ??
 
MSPXJGuy
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:11 am

Well, I think it was pretty much stated that they have 8 different gateways here in the U.S. but they don't have any intl hubs that they need to get a lot of people to and from out of there.

When you look at the two US carriers that have 747s (Northwest and United) they have a large presence in Asia and both have a hub in NRT. They need those big birds to transfer people through with limited slots.

American doesn't have a hub like this internationally.

 
ERJ145LR
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:17 am

what planes have they retired since 9-11?
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:21 am

They've retired the 727-200 fleet, and as of tomorrow the F-100 fleet.

Edit: Well, you could count the MD-11 also, but they were already on their way out well before 9/11/01

[Edited 2004-09-07 21:27:23]
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
ERJ145LR
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:23 am

yeah but, Luv2Fly said they had 11 pew 9/11 and now they only haev 6 mainline.
 
ERJ145LR
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:24 am

yeah but, Luv2Fly said they had 11 pre 9/11 and now they only haev 6 mainline.
 
FedExDC-10
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:40 am

Forgive me, but I question that statement of 11 different aircraft.

FedExDC-10
 
flflyguy
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:21 am

Bob Crandall put it this way back in the 80's-- he would rather turn passengers away from a full 767 sometimes, than to fly a half-empty 747 for half of the year.

Many of our large markets are seasonal and would not support 747 service year-round. What do you do with the plane when it isn't needed? It becomes an unnecessary expense.

Arguably we could find some use for a limited number of 747s year round, but right now they are trying to reduce the number of fleet types. There's not that much that a 747 can do that a 777 can't, these days.
The views expressed are my own, and not necessarily those of my employer.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:31 am

I can see AA, when they get their finances back online, which is happening slowly, ordering the 772LR, and possibly growing routes to get the 773ER. And definately the 7E7. They also retired the 717, though those came from TW.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:44 am

FedExDC-10,
In July of 2001 American was operating the following type of aircraft.
1. 777-200ER
2. 767-200
3. 767-200ER
4. 757-200
5. 737-800
6. 727-200
7. MD-11
8. MD-80
9. A300-600
10. Fokker 100
11. MD-90

Source: Air Transport World July 2001 page 134
 
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yyz717
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:49 am

When AA applied for ORD-NRT in the early 90's, their plan was to operate the route with 2 744's seconded from partner CP. As it turned out, UA was awarded the route.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:50 am

Bob,
The MD-11 and MD-90 fleets were already well under retirement way before 9/11 (I think that AA had 2 MD-11 airframes operational after 9/11 and those were only used to fill in as equipment subs), so I don't know if you can rightly count them. As for the TWA 717's, they were still on TWA operating certificates and leases when AMR made them get rid of them, so I don't think that you can count those either.

As I stated above, the fleets that AA has truly dumped post 9/11 are the 727's and effective tomorrow the Fokker 100's.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
aa777jr
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:00 am

It is way more profitable for AA to operate 772 on the routes were they used the 742s in the 80s and early 90s. They were using a 742 to fly into LGW and HNL. When they bought 772 and 763 it became way more profitable to operate a 2 engine v. 4 engine. The market share was already dominated by US, BA, LH, etc with the 747 and AA saw no reason to operate.

AA777jr
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
AA B777-200
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:01 am

I think the last 747SPs flew JFK-LHR and JFK-BRU. That is after the MD11 took over the DFW-NRT and AA started getting more MD11s.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:11 am

AA777jr,

I don't believe that AA ever operated the 747-200.

What market share was dominated by US with the 747?
 
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yyz717
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:17 am

I think the last 747SPs flew JFK-LHR and JFK-BRU.

AA used the SP on JFK-LHR and then DFW-NRT.

I don't believe that AA ever operated the 747-200.

Correct. They only operated the 741 and SP.




I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
LEARJET23
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:43 am

I used to fly the AA 742 flight #7 from LAX to HNL Hawaii back in the early 1980's always in first, and always in 1-A. It was a seat all to its self the way the seating was laid out. Really cool to be in the nose all alone! no one on you side to bother you! Just wonderful memories of days gone forever!
 
aa777jr
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:49 am

I meant UA not US, crucify me holy one bob.

[Edited 2004-09-07 23:49:40]
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
aa777jr
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:52 am

also, AA did fly the 741 and SP, my brother is a currier with Fed Ex and confirmed

20653 (237) 747-273C 15/04/1984

The flight was DFW-HNL.



[Edited 2004-09-07 23:59:17]
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
Thrust
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:55 am

AA operated between 10 and 20 747-100s in the 1970s....unfortunately they were not the airline back then that they are now....they had mostly transcontinental service only, and very little access to Europe and Asia. They did operate into LGW in the early 1980s, but other than that, only transcontinental service. So they could not be used to their full potential. AA replaced them with DC-10s and sold them to other airlines in the early 1980s upon the Crandall takeover. They bought two of TWA's 747SPs, but by this time they were building up an MD-11 and Boeing 767 fleet, which usurped the merits of the SP. The SPs were retired between 1992-1994 I believe. So there you have it...the history of 747s in AA's fleet. It is clearly evident that if AA had its LHR routes and Asia routes, and the rest of its service to Europe, the 747s probably would've been around in the AA fleet for another decade or so. TWA basically had the European route structure AA has today...and their 747s were in the fleet for over 25 years...there is no doubt in my mind the 741s would've been in the fleet until the mid-1990s had they not been sold earlier.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
texdravid
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:01 am

As the 747-400 is in the twilight of its career, AA will never have a 744, even if it is awarded new Asian gateways.

AA loves its 777's and 767's and will (hopefully) love its 7e7's.

Lets face it A.netters, the 747 is a dying beast. I love it more than anyone, but airlines just feel it is uneconomical and unneeded. Boeing is right, airlines and passengers prefer increased frequencies, and long thin routes are the way of the future.

Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
Thrust
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:06 am

Yep, I read that orders on the 747 are slowly drying up...it cannot continue to sell well as it is...twin jets and more modern four engined jets like the A340 and the A380 are going to suck its orders dry...it needs newer engines, possibly an increase in size, and a much more modern system to be able to take hold of the market like it did the first 20 years of its life.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
FedExDC-10
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:55 am

Indeed, my apologies. I did not realize that the MD-11 flew that late. So I make eight current types off of that list, seven taking into account the-I believe-pending retirement of the Fokkers. Am I correct there?

FedExDC-10
 
Hirnie
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:11 am

"It was a seat all to its self the way the seating was laid out. Really cool to be in the nose all alone! no one on you side to bother you! Just wonderful memories of days gone forever!"
AMEN
I envy You, did a lot flights on a 742 as well, but not in this special seat.

The 747 doesn`t fit to the route system AA serves. Perhaps on some routes the 747 might be an advantege, but the disadvantege of operating antoher small fleet is perhaps higher than serving this destination with an existing type in the fleet.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:50 am

Lets face it A.netters, the 747 is a dying beast. I love it more than anyone, but airlines just feel it is uneconomical and unneeded. Boeing is right, airlines and passengers prefer increased frequencies, and long thin routes are the way of the future.

Tell that to SQ, ANA, JAL, BA, LHA who are still massive 744 operators.

The statement about frequency and long thin routes fits in very well with the US market, but the rest of the world is much more hub and spoke. In France, the UK, Italy, Germany, Japan, Korea and many other countries, there are only 1-4 large cities with international service, and the population is much more concentrated to a few urban areas. In the US, the population is extremely spread out, giving a very "wide and shallow" market with the need for a myriad connections. There's only so much you can do with frequencies in Europe and Asia. Also, airports like LHR are increasingly slot constrained, so you want to hit them with the largest number of seats you can per aircraft movement. Thus the need for the absolutely highest number of seats, and planes like the 744 and the 388.

Granted, the 744 is an aging design, but there is still a need for an aircraft in the 400-500 pax category. Larger than the 346, 773 or any conceivable stretch thereof (probably unstretchable anyway) and smaller than the 388. The proposed 387 might fill this gap, but that will probably be one heavy airframe for the capacity.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
UA772IAD
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:45 am

I agree with you Starlionblue. In fact, this is also true in the US... In 2003, UA pulled a bunch of 744's out of storage in California and returned them to service. I think the 744 will eventually be retired, but I think I read somewhere that Boeing is going to keep the 747 line with a whole new re-engineered 747 (much like the 737 Next generations).
 
LEARJET23
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:01 am

I love the 747!! Can't get enough of this big mama! Flew home from Vietnam in one in 1971, will go out again next month to Asia on nwa #1 !! 34 years and over 100 trans oceanic flights.... "I'm lovin it!" if it was a woman I'd make love to it! Why don't you guys at a.net chip in and buy me one?
 
FedExDC-10
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:13 am

ROFL. I hereby contribute five dollars, with the understanding that I get custody on weekends.
 
VirginAtlantic
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 12:20 pm

At least there's still the European and Asian lines, who are still heavy 747 users. So I think we're still safe for a few more years.
 
wdleiser
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:31 pm

As an American I am proud to say United is my flagship carrier. In my opinion a great airline must have the 744 if it want's true greatness Status  Smile
 
Thrust
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:49 pm

What people are failing to realize is that while yes, the Boeing 744 continues to be a very popular aircraft, new orders for it are dwindling. It will be around for a long time, but from what I am seeing there are less brand new 747s being delivered to airlines than ever before...it is a marvelous aircraft in my opinion, but it just goes to show that the fewer and fewer Boeing 744 orders are being issued...it is playing its role well in society, but because it is not as modern as the giant twins or Airbuses, orders are beginning to decline. The Boeing 744ER apparently was not very successful as only KLM and Qantas ordered them. It is clear that the Boeing 747's age is beginning to show...if Boeing wants new orders for the 747, it needs to be technologically updated...bigger size and more range, as well as more fuel efficiency would no doubt cause the orders to pile up again...as well as maybe a redesigned wing and less tires....just my opinion. The Boeing 744 clearly has many years left on it, but as new orders are beginning to decline, it shows the demand is beginning to shift slightly.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
texdravid
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:35 pm

Starlionblue,

You state that SQ, et. al are huge 747 operators. True, but SQ is retiring them and by 2007 or so they will be no 744's in SQ colors. All of your stated airlines except for BA (aka Boeing airways) will probably switch too.

I wish it weren't true, but the 777 and 340 will fit or be made to fit airlines who need capacity just below the A380.

Long thin routes are not just an American phenomenon, either. Tell that to people who live in Manchester, England, Munich, Osaka, Melbourne, Australia, Chennai/Bangalore. These cities aren't the most populous or business-centric cities in their respective countries, but the people who live in these cities certainly expect, and in some cases deserve, nonstop international routes that best can be described as long and thin routes.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
aa777jr
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:29 pm

SQ retiring their entire fleet of 747 by 2007? Are you flipping insane? SQ is the most (I think) profitable carrier worldwide. Their governement subsides allow them to spend freely and pay well. They are the youngest average fleet age of any carrier I can think of (reference www.airfleets.net) There is no way that SQ will get rid of their 747 fleet anytime in the next 20 yrs dude. Check your facts.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
lakerskytrain
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:49 pm

Aa777jr
You argue that SQ have one of the youngest fleets. Their hardly going to keep a 744 going for that long are they if they wish to keep its average down?

Surely if they wish to keep a younger fleet then the 744 is likely to go. It would certainly seem the case with the PAX 744 that numerous ones have been sold off recently. I don't know whether the 744Fs are going too?

LakerSkytrain
 
FlySSC
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:04 pm

To go back to the Topic....

AA operated either the 747-100s or -200s in the 70s

Ckfred,
Actually AA operated some B747 as late as mid-80's, as shown on this pic taken in 1984 at LAX :


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.



The -SP was operated until the early 90s :


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Paul Morley



taken at LHR in June 1992
 
3lions
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:34 pm

i have to agree with what you said
 
bredman1
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RE: Why No 747's At AA?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:24 pm

The 2 that NASA uses to transport the shuttle are ex-American. Going to be flying on EVA 744 to Taiwan tomorrow!!!!