drerx7
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What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:11 pm

I expected Delta to downsize DFW; but I did not expect it to go all the way down to 3 cities. What will happen at DFW next? I assume that lowfare carriers, particularly AirTran, and American will bolster service at DFW to soak up the new capacity. My guess is that AA will announce more flights than those previously announced, especially since a good number of those 70 flights were the resumption of mainline service from Eagle. Will Delta increase capacity through IAH (SkyTeam) as a side effect?
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
JayDavis
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:17 pm

If I were DFW Airport, I'd be giving JetBlue a call, no doubt. One could also say that I'd even go call on Southwest to see if they want to operate a few flights out of DFW. Possibly even contact WestJet, maybe IndyAir.........

AirTran doesn't have the means to bring in a ton of flights right now, they are hurting for aircraft.



Jay
 
AIR757200
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:18 pm


Well, AA is increasing its presence (70 additional departures (of which 35 are mainline) by 10% in DFW by summer 2005.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:22 pm

The JetBlue's and Westjets of this world, with say two or three flights a day each, will not compensate the hole left by Delta. American will most likely fill at least 75% of the gap...

 
UnitedTristar
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:26 pm

AirTran doesn't have the means to bring in a ton of flights right now, they are hurting for aircraft.


I am sure if they wanted to they could get some 717 real easy from Pembroke(if that's how you spell their name) or Boeing.

-m

 Big thumbs up
 
aa61hvy
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:27 pm

Where is DL going to fly to from DFW now?
ATL I'd assume, CVG and MCO?
Go big or go home
 
JayDavis
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:35 pm

No, you CANNOT just get B-717's very easily. It still takes time to manufacture them and I think most of them are already spoken for. As for the other low-cost carriers I mentioned above, if I were a DFW Airport representative, I'd be trying to get every low cost carrier I could find to fill up some of the capacity. I have a weird feeling that DFW is going to turn into another MSP or DTW with no competition..................AirTran isn't big enough to compete with AA out of DFW, yet.


Jay
 
MSYtristar
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:37 pm

The DFW flight schedule will probably look something like this:

ATL: 10x daily
CVG: 5x daily
SLC: 6x daily

That's asusming they will offer only 21 flight to 3 destinations.

Man, I knew they would cut DFW, but not THAT much. Wow.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:38 pm

Where is DL going to fly to from DFW now?
ATL I'd assume, CVG and MCO?


And not SLC?

 
AIR757200
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:38 pm


were a DFW Airport representative, I'd be trying to get every low cost carrier I could find to fill up some of the capacity

It could be a DTW situation whereas NW pretty much tells the folks how to run the airport... I'm sure it's the same in DFW with AA.
 
AA623BDLSJU
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:43 pm

WOW!!! I am dumbfounded, really.

I had a feeling that DL was going to downsize, but not remove basically its entire service with exception the flights from its hubs.

DFW will become a hub for another airline. It's just a matter or who and when.
 
drerx7
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:52 pm

I don't think AA anticipated this much Delta scale back either--it makes their 10% increase negligible; they'll no doubt bring in a lot of new flights.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
aa61hvy
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:08 pm

HB- I said MCO over SLC because I know MCO brings in alot of revenue. DL used to fly 757, 762, 763 on this route so it obviously brough in money. I can't imagine there being a huge demand for DFW-SLC, though I know that is one of DL's hubs.
Go big or go home
 
OPNLguy
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:13 pm

Just FWIW, I saw another thread on another board which brought up the question of what will happen to DL's hanger and maintenance facilities on the east side of the airport. Theoreticaaly, they could still retain it, and cycle aircraft in for work, even with only 21 daily flights. Various posters said it would be sold to UPS, AA, or AirTran....

We'll see...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
drerx7
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:17 pm

This also leaves about 23-25 gates vacant at DFW
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JayDavis
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:21 pm

As I had said earlier in previous post, the Chairman of the Board at DFW Airport was quoted in The Dallas Morning News stating that the cuts coming at DFW for DL would be with an ax, not a knife. I think he should now rephrase that into the cuts coming with a chain-saw.

Never in my life would I have expected this many cuts from DL at DFW. What a shame too, as it used to be their second largest hub. Non-stops to HNL, FRA, LGW (I think???) etc. A ton of L-1011's. Wow !!


Jay
 
aa61hvy
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:22 pm

I don't think AA needs another hanger. Their west side hangers are huge. UPS could use something though, they have alot of planes at DFW
Go big or go home
 
JayDavis
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:38 pm

Actually, AA doesn't need another "hangar".

I had heard when I worked for AirTran briefly, that they were trying to open up a maintenance base here. They are bringing on four mechanics to work on their planes overnight at the gates beginning in January according to a friend of mine.


Jay
 
deltaffindfw
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:43 pm


The satellite terminal at E would be a great place for Airtran. You could bring the jetbridges back and have 8 or 9 gates. Also, then you have the ramp area just south of there that ASA & CO use now.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:44 pm

I heard a "rumor" that DL/Comair may be opening a hanger at RDU.. on the books to be built within the next 18 months.. capable of maintenance on 8 RJ or 3 757.. perhaps RDU could be seeing a Song flight or N/S to SLC soon?
Aiming High and going far..
 
ATLhomeCMH
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:50 pm

Like others have said: AirTran can't hang w/ AA in their own backyard. They may add a few extra flights, but nothing substantial enough to eat up 25 gates. AA will claim most of those gates, surely.

Thus, a DTW situation, as others have said, is entirely possible.
"The most terrifying words in the Engligh language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"-Ronald Reagan
 
deltaffindfw
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:05 am


AA probably will not claim those gates. Most likely, AA will take over gates at B and have the other airlines move to E. Term. E is not connected to the rest of the airport by any walkways (like A, B, C and soon to be D are), so it wouldn't be a good fit for them.
 
L104me
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:09 am



I went on Delta. com, and the new schedules are loaded. Even with all the revenue AA61Hvy mention...Orlando is not on the list! Looks like only flying to the hubs!

Have fun flying on American when you go see Mickey!
 
stirling
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:34 am

When does the new schedule begin?

This is terrible news for the immediate future, but trust me it will get better.

I can't see AA taking the DL gates. Logistically not a good fit with the current operations. But 25 gates is a lot of gates.
Reminds me of when Braniff shut down. It opened the door to other carriers to enter the market. I believe UA was one of them.
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prosa
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:41 am

Is there a chance that WN would add significant operations at DFW, as a means of getting around the Wright Amendment? Maintaining their dominance at DAL while becoming a signifcant operator at DFW would make them an even tougher competitor to AA.
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ScottB
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:42 am

AA won't need the gates in Terminal E; they'll be leasing 20 gates in the new Terminal D. The international carriers currently using Terminal B will move to Terminal D, freeing up gates in B. I suppose AM will also move to D from E, especially with few connecting options on DL at DFW. Given that Delta will likely scale back to at most 4-6 gates, I think we're just going to see a very, very empty Terminal E.
 
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ATA L1011
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:44 am

Wow this is way more than expected, wow I was hoping that they kept a few flts a day to its busiest destinations from DFW like LAX. I'm sure the flts to SLC will be for connection purposes for people headed to LAX,SEA,SFO,SAN, etc. Very sad indeed and I feel for those 4,000+ employees there.
Treat others as you expect to be treated!
 
drerx7
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:06 am

I doubt you'll see Southwest at DFW, they aren't trying to "get around" the Wright Amendment. They've operated with it for 30+ years and are content with their protected ops at Love Field-besides they have more profitable stations at LAS, HOU, PHX, and BWI. In actuality it is fairly easy to get around that as a passenger; if you must fly Southwest from Love Field or the fare comes out cheaper--you'd by two separate tickets, one down to Hobby and then from there you buy a second one anywhere in the Southwest system.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
aa61hvy
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:37 am

Perhaps AA will beef up daily flights or upgrade aircrafts to certain airports to pick up the slack left by DL places that come to mind are: MCO, FLL, PBI.
Go big or go home
 
Thrust
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:48 am

Well, even if DL nearly killed their service to DFW, I doubt it is going to have an enormous effect...AA had a huge monopoly on there anyway, and they probably serve almost every city DL served out of DFW...this hole will be filled by another airline quickly I assume. A major city like Dallas spells profit for an LCC...
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
aa777jr
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:52 am

Any of DL departing flights out of DFW international?

AA777jr
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RCS763AV
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:53 am

Maybe DL will bring Song for flights to JFK, MCO and FLL?
 
JMSinTexas
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:15 am

I am probably going to get slammed for this, especially since just about everyone on this board is blinded by their love of commercial aviation (even me, to a point). But I am going to say it anyway - is it possible that nobody will take up the slack at DFW??? I will let you catch your breath.... Ok, imagine a world in which there is too much capacity - many more seats than butts willing to fill them. Isn't it obvious that we are in such a situation right now? I am not an insider, so I can't break out load factors and CPMs and the O&D traffic between DFW and VPS for July to back up my argument, but I think it is worth considering. If that is the case, then DL pulling out of DFW is a rationalization of capacity, albeit a rather drastic one. My simplistic macro view of the airline industry tells me that it is necessary. There is so much overcapacity that nobody can even make a $5 fuel surcharge stick! FIVE LOUSY BUCKS!

DFW was my home airport for many years, and I hate the thought of AA being able to charge at will for their flights, but maybe there's not enough business for there to be a serious competitor at DFW. As much as I hate to see DL go, I think it is necessary to see some contraction (at least, and more likely bankruptcy for one or two airlines) before the US airline industry can get healthy again.

I am not suggesting for a minute that NOBODY will add any flights to try and pick up business that DL is leaving behind, but I doubt that anyone will come in and replace DL any more than anyone replaced AA at STL. (Remember all the "Who is going to replace AA at STL" threads?) There could be some more WN flights out of DAL, and Airtran could add a flight or two (or ten), and maybe Jet Blue will come to town... who knows??? It won't take long for someone to try to take advantage of AA's excessive fares, and decide to move in and undercut them. I do doubt, though, that we will see another airline with the same size operation as DL.

Ok, I will get off my soapbox now, and duck...

 
N160LH
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:19 am

Just a little thought... DL has control of the gates in E until 2009, which when the lease is up. So you can put away the idea FL or anybody else doing anything on E for awhile. This is good for DL and AA because this means they still hold all the cards to DFW.


N160LH
"I do alright up in the air, its down on the ground that I tend to mess up..."
 
MAH4546
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:49 pm

I am probably going to get slammed for this, especially since just about everyone on this board is blinded by their love of commercial aviation (even me, to a point). But I am going to say it anyway - is it possible that nobody will take up the slack at DFW???

Exactly! The airline market has too much capacity and too many hubs for the mainline carriers to operate in a healthy manner. This cut is good for the airlines, although not so great for Dallas. There is no need to replace the capacity.
a.
 
Refueler1974
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:55 pm

I have a dumb question about this situation.....how will this affect the ASA (delta connection) flights into DFW?? Will this mean a drastic cutback of their flights into there? I am asking b/c here at AEX 4 of our ASA flights go to DFW and only 2-3 flights go to ATL daily.
Rumor has it (from a friend at ASA) that we will be receiving the 70 seat CRJ700s for flights from here to SLC and CVG.... they are already getting equipment (larger beltloaders) to handle them down at the terminal.
Any ideas?
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:55 pm

DFW will survive just fine beng a "one hub airport". You'll see a smattering of new flights by FL, etc, but don't expect a huge buildup.
 
MAH4546
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:03 pm

I have a dumb question about this situation.....how will this affect the ASA (delta connection) flights into DFW??

They are all gone. No more Delta RJs to Dallas after 31 January 2005.

Rumor has it (from a friend at ASA) that we will be receiving the 70 seat CRJ700s for flights from here to SLC and CVG....

The SLC list of new destinations has already been leaked, so no AEX-SLC. I really can't see AEX-CVG happening, but who knows, it is possible. CVG is getting, IIRC, three new destinations.


a.
 
nwa man
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:21 pm

AEX-SLC

Alexandria, LA - Salt Lake City? Now that's crazy talkBig grin


Just a little thought... DL has control of the gates in E until 2009, which when the lease is up. So you can put away the idea FL or anybody else doing anything on E for awhile. This is good for DL and AA because this means they still hold all the cards to DFW.


I guarantee that the leases will end before '09... DL needs the cash more than it needs 20 empty gates at a non-hub airport. After Delta and DFW work out an agreement, it wouldn't shock me to see something along the lines of what DeltaffinDFW mentioned. Hypothetically (and assuming that AC and Aeromexico move to the new D concourse),

E2- YX
E4-E6- NW (as now)
E7-E9- CO (as now)
E10-E13 - DL (as now)
E14-E15 - HP
E16-E17 - F9
E18-E21 - UA
E31-E34 - US
E35-E36 - HP
E37-E38 - SY/Champion/Charters


Such a plan would still leave eight gates in the E satellite, more than enough room for a six-gate Airtran setup (another good DeltaffinDFW idea) and two gates for a certain JFK-based Airbus operator and ATA, while opening up the B concourse for AA expansion and overflow.


Just an idea... but a very possible one at that.


Regards,

N-Dub


(edited for the "crazy talk" line and to insert ATA in the E satellite)

[Edited 2004-09-09 06:23:40]

[Edited 2004-09-09 06:24:16]
Create your own luck.
 
SuperDash
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:23 pm

AirTran is a likely big winner at DFW. Of course they have planes. They ain't 717s folks, they are new gen 737s. I would expect AirTran to pick up a bunch of the good routes at DFW. And you know what? This is the worst news American't could hear. Let's see we will trade stodgy slow moving Delta for high energy profitable and majorly low cost, no $5 charging for calling our reservations AirTran? Bad Bad news for American't. American't will hurt with a bigger AirTran presence. Hey, AirTran is already $5 cheaper than American (when calling the old reservations number). DFW is wide open folks and American't aint gunna be the winner. Welcome to DFW AirTran. Dallas, presented on a silver platter. Hey, AirTran, don't forget to send Delta a Christmas card this year. Maybe you can send one to American't too.
 
UAXDXer
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:29 pm

Exactly! The airline market has too much capacity and too many hubs for the mainline carriers to operate in a healthy manner. This cut is good for the airlines, although not so great for Dallas. There is no need to replace the capacity.

Did anyone read the press releases today? It is not a matter of capacity, the aircraft are full. It is a matter of pricing and competing with the LCC, along with very high labor and fuel costs.
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
Refueler1974
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:14 pm

I guess this means that we will be strictly operating AEX-ATL and ATL-AEX flights for ASA.....  Sad
We were told that as ASA slowly shuts down DFW flights from AEX in November, they were going to be bringing on new flights to SLC and CVG so there would be more than one Delta hub being flown to... They had seen the paperwork that was showing us being switched over to CRJ700s with the new destinations...

[Edited 2004-09-09 07:19:47]
NWA Man - Why do you say AEX-SLC is crazy talk? It is very possible....

[Edited 2004-09-09 07:22:05]
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.
 
njdevilsin03
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:16 pm

If the slc have been leaked what are they haha?
717, 727, 731, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 752, 753, 762, 763, 777, DC9, MD80, DC10, L1011, ERJ, CRJ, ATR, DH8, A300,
 
MSYtristar
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:19 pm

I hope AEX-ATL will see some increased frequency. Perhaps some CRJ-700 service at least. It looks like many smaller Southcentral cities will be losing Delta service to the West, which is unfortunate.

By the way Refueler....I could have sworn that I have seen some Louisiana Air Caravan's doing proving runs into MSY for at least the past week.
 
Refueler1974
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:27 pm

MSYtristar - I could have sworn that I have seen some Louisiana Air Caravan's doing proving runs into MSY for at least the past week.

You Have? We haven't seen them yet.....but that doesn't mean that they aren't out there!
I do hope we get upgraded to CRJ-700s for the ATL runs too! It would be a boost in pax ...plus a boost in fuel sales for us as well!!

[Edited 2004-09-09 07:31:03]
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.
 
MAH4546
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:27 pm

If the slc have been leaked what are they haha?

Mainline to Tampa, Lauderdale, Maui, New Orleans, Steamboat Springs, and Cabo San Lucas.

Connection to Little Rock, Witchita, El Paso, Austin, San Antonio, Faytteville (NW Arkansas), and Burbank.
a.
 
airstatdfw
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:19 pm

I Don't think the airport is going to allow Delta to sit on the gates they are not using. They will make Delta redo the lease and only lease the gates they are using. I don't think AA is going to take many gates at this time b/c they have 18 gates coming to them in the new terminal. They also have to increase flights by 17% to keep those gates. The changes I see

Term E:
Continental, Northwest, Delta, Sun Country, AeroMexico, Champion Air, Midwest, Frontier, America West, ATA, Mesa, Charters

Term B:
American Eagle, AirTran, United, US Airways, Air Canada Jazz, Korean Air, British Airways, Lufthansa, Charters

What I can see is AA moving the rest of AE operations to Terminal B and closing the satellite terminal and AirTran getting a couple more gates.

AirStatDFW
 
LY4XELD
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:35 pm

Exactly! The airline market has too much capacity and too many hubs for the mainline carriers to operate in a healthy manner. This cut is good for the airlines, although not so great for Dallas. There is no need to replace the capacity.

Keep in mind DFW airport is a business entity and needs to make money for itself, let alone the airlines that serve the airport. I doubt the administration at DFW would just let those gates go empty. I agree there is overcapacity, but having essentially an entire terminal empty is unacceptable for a major airport like DFW. Whether or not DL will still pay for those gates is another side to the story which I don't know the answer. I'm sure the admin of DFW is scrambling to fill the void.
That's why we're here.
 
MAH4546
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:56 am

Keep in mind DFW airport is a business entity and needs to make money for itself, let alone the airlines that serve the airport.

Obviously, but that doesn't mean airlines are going to flock to Dallas just to make DFW happy. If all airports could do that, then, well...
a.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: What Next For DFW W/o Delta?

Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:14 am

Let's be for real.. DFW is AA country... everybody knows that. Unless you have a strong airline right now, the likelyhood of someone wanting to take on AA directly is not going to be very strong. Seems like DFW is going to have to wait for the airline industry to rebound. I could see a few destiantions added, but not a buildup or a "focus city" status. If I was DFW, I would try to get more South/Central American airlines involved...
Aiming High and going far..

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