SHUPirate1
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YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:38 am

Willow Run Airport, just outside of the city of Detroit, Michigan, seems to be a logical way to get around our red-tailed friends who monopolize Detroit-Wayne County Northwest Airlines International Airport...YIP has its longest runway at 7526 feet (5R/23L), and four other runways, all longer than 6500 feet...why couldn't somebody, such as Southwest or jetBlue, set up shop as a way of getting around Northwest's monopoly at DTW...I know YIP is 8 miles further out from Detroit from DTW is, but given lower fares, and the proximity to Ann Arbor, I could see YIP being a viable airport for an LCC operations base, for an airline such as Southwest...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
luv2fly
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:42 am

Have you ever been to YIP? If not it would remind you of a shot right out of WW2. It would take major updating and money to do this.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
dtwclipper
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:45 am

I don't believe YIP has the pax facilities needed, it is mainly a cargo facility.

Yes, it is a little closer to A2, but the bulk of the metro area would still have a lot more driving to do. FNT is a better example of an alternate to DTW.

But, tell me....what have you got against NW and legacy carriers in general. I really see this as un-American as buying Nissans and Audis at a time when all legacy industries (Ford, GM, NW, AA, Etc.) need the support of the American people.

Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:49 am

Dtwclipper-I have nothing against Northwest, or any other airline (except Delta, and to a lesser extent Independence), and as a matter of fact, I try to do most of my flying on legacy airlines (namely United and US Airways)...I'm just trying to inquire about the opportunity to use an alternate airport to stimulate competition...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
timz
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RE: Un-American

Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:57 am

"I really see this as un-American as buying Nissans and Audis at a time when all legacy industries (Ford, GM, NW, AA, Etc.) need the support of the American people."

Flying Southwest/Jetblue/Airtran is un-American... sheesh.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:54 am

Southwest already happily operates out of DTW. They just maintain status-quo and haven't expanded in ages. Spirit also happily operates out of DTW, so does Indy Air. Anyone is more than welcome, they just choose not to.

YIP is only about 10 minutes driving from DTW, that would be the dumbest idea in the world to set up passenger ops at YIP.

If you can't drive an additional 10 minutes from Ann Arbor to get to one of the largest airports in the country, they you've got problems.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:10 am

PSU.DTW.SCE-Keep in mind, also, that that argument works in reverse, if you can't drive an additional 10 minutes from Detroit to get to lower fares and get out of the clutches of Northwest, then you've got problems too...and what if, say, Spirit moved their operations from DTW to YIP, or jetBlue used YIP to try to get a foothold in the Detroit-Ann Arbor market, or even if Independence built up a second, east-west hub at DTW...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
dc8jet
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:11 am

You must remember that YIP was built during WW II as the airport for Ford's B-24 bomber plant. At that time the airlines were using Detroit City Airport (DET)
and serving it with DC-3s. DET was too small to handle the upcoming four engined airliners and because it was right in the middle of a residental area ir could not be expanded.

After the war one of the hangars at YIP was converted into a terminal building.
The conversion mainly consisted of adding ticket counters and the other things that go inside a terminal. Two boarding fingers were added. As I recall they were made of wood. They also added an observation deck. The original large hangar doors were left in place. When the airlines moved to DTW the terminal was turned back to a hangar.

As was mentioned the place is right out of the 1950's. The only passenger flights that go into YIP are sports teams playing U of M. When they arrive the passengers get right onto busses.

In order to have any passenger operations out of YIP they would have to build a new terminal, update the roads and a whole lot of other things. The cost of doing that would be prohibative.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:14 am

But there is ZERO advantage of flying into an undeveloped airport. Either way NW would price match, and its all a moot point since it won't happen anyways.
 
azo
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:23 am

Why would the current LCC carriers at DTW move to YIP if they are having no problems at DTW? There would be little-to-no advantage of doing that.
Kalamazoozoozoozoozoozoozoo
 
KYIPpilot
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:31 am

There really isn't anyplace at YIP that could be turned into pax facilities without construction of a new building. All hangars are currently used. Also, DTW already provides all of the services that people want, food, etc. Why move? As stated above, YIP is only 10 minutes from DTW.

Also as a side note, YIP has just started undergoing major construction that will last for 5 years. $76 million.

-All new lighting and signs are being put it
-Runway 9R/27L is being removed
-Parallel taxiways are being build for the 23's

There may be more, but this is all I have heard as of now.
"It starts when you're always afraid; You step out of line, the man come and take you away" -Buffalo Springfield
 
luv2fly
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:36 am

There are other possibilities in the area that could get service first before sinking the money into YIP to make it acceptable for passengers. You have TOL, LAN and FNT all relatively close by, also a little further away you have the likes of GRR and AZO.... And for an airline flying regional jets like Flyi there is always DET waiting in the wings for someone to start up service....
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
FRA2DTW
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:43 am

If I remember correctly, YIP is owned by the Univ. of Michigan who are happy with the revenue that cargo generates. The main thing that always has puzzled me about DTW is why Southwest has never expanded there, as mentioned. It's almost like they have an understanding with NW about DTW AND MSP.
 
luv2fly
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:48 am

FRA2DTW

I believe WN is happy with the market they have out of DTW and if they grow slowly they could do it without waking the sleeping bear.......
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
dc8jet
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:54 pm

YIP hasn't been owned by U of M for quite some time. It is owned by Wayne County and is operated by the Wayne County Airport Authority as is DTW.
 
COSPN
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:51 pm

Whats Up with DET Remeber Pro Air IND-DET ...
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:34 pm

What's the problem with DTW? The new north terminal will be completed in 2008 so all the airlines will have new facilities, and DTW has four parallel runways with dual or triple simultaneous ILS approaches.

YIP is really so close to DTW that traffic would probably use many of the same approach/ departure corridors that DTW uses now. Even with infrastructure improvements at YIP to handle passengers, I don't really see the advantages.
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
electraBob
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:53 pm

It sure would be neat to hear "Southwest 849, cleared to land on 23 Left...you're following a B-17 on a 1 mile final"....or "Spirit 642, cleared to land on 5 Right....you're following an Electra on a 3 mile final."  Smile

It will never happen. We are very lucky to have Willow Run in this area, but you will never see scheduled passenger service there again....never.
Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.....
 
Stretch 8
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:21 pm

While visiting "Ypsitucky International" @ Willow Run, be sure to visit the Yankee Air Museum (before it is condemned).
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
 
neilalp
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:22 pm

Teams playing U of M may fly into YIP, but U of M when flying in many cases use DTW. For bowl charters the players, staff, and band all take M busses to DTW.
 
warren747sp
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:48 pm

@DTWClipper
How is supporting NW patriotic when they turn around and buys billions of Airbus planes with our hard earned U.S. dollars?
747SP
 
KarlB737
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:57 pm

I remember seeing ALL the airlines flying into YIP --- But that was before DTW was constructed. I have a postcard of what the terminal that was a hanger looked like inside at that time. I remember this being in the 1950s. I have a black and white photo of passengers deplaning a Northwest Stratocruiser at YIP.

Later 707's arrived there but as stated in previous posts while its neat to think about the "concept" of a secondary airport in the area so much would have to be changed at YIP.

With the current financial condition of the airlines the concept as almost all have stated isn't really viable at this time.
 
JAFA
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:01 am

Yet another ill informed regurgitation of rhetoric believed on A.net. NWA does not have a monopoly at DTW. Of passengers originating travel at DTW NWA carries around half of those people. There are plenty of choices nonstop and connecting. Connecting passengers cannot nor should not be counted since they are just changing planes. It is not thier origin or destination airport. They could change planes anywhere.
DTW is not slot controlled and has plenty of room for any airline who wants to operate. Willow Run airport is further away from the city of Detroit than DTW. There is no need for Willow Run as an alternative. A wiser suggestion might be DET (City Airport) at least it is close to downtown businesses.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:14 am

Warren747sp:

Yes, I know, and am dissapointed in NW's use of Airbus rather than Boeing, however keep in mind, that although Airbus is a Euro Company they supply contracts to hundreds of US firms.

http://www.time.com/time/globalbusiness/article/0,9171,1101020729-322621,00.html

Never the less, let's not turn this into an A v. B thread.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
neilalp
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:04 am

The statement that keeps coming up that YIP is further away from the city mean jack squat! No one lives in the city. For people in the west YIP is 10mins closer and for people like me in the north it is 10mins further. And this will reverse if DET were to be used. Aprox. 20mins closer for me from the north, but aprox 20mins further from those in the west. People might say keep stuff in the city to preserve Detroit, however it is the big business that have caused so much urban sprawl. Ford Wixom plant(which might close I think), Daimler Chrysler Aurban Hills HQ, Downriver plants. So the airport not being in the city can't be used as a major reason for people leaving Detroit.
 
MAH4546
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:19 am

"I really see this as un-American as buying Nissans and Audis at a time when all legacy industries (Ford, GM, NW, AA, Etc.) need the support of the American people."

Yeah, so un-American. While Ford and GM are closing down US manufacturing plants to make more vehicles in Mexico, companies like Nissan and Hyundai are building billion dollar manufacturing plants in the United States.
a.
 
KarlB737
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:26 am

It sounds like there would be more interest in DET than YIP. But that is another thread which has already been covered.
 
SHUPirate1
Topic Author
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:30 am

YIP could also handle larger aircraft than DET, however...YIP has 5 runways at 6511 feet or longer, with their longest at 7526, while DET's longest runway, 15-33, is at 5090 feet, and the other runway, 7-25, is at 4025 feet...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
sw733
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:32 am

So true, MAH4546, so true...by the same thing, Dtwclipper must have never flown, or never will fly, anything except US based airlines...kinda hard if he ever needs to go from, say, South Africa to UK  Wink/being sarcastic
 
AGrayson514
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:01 am

What are the facilities like at DET? Do they have a terminal and such?

~ Andrew Grayson
Give a little bit...
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:26 am

Andrew,

Official DET website with photos and more:

http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/airport/information.htm
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:13 am

NEILALP...A lot of people would have to drive right past DTW to get to YIP on I 94.. That's why DTW was developed throughout the sixties and pulled carriers FROM YIP. DTW is closer to population center of Wayne, Macomb and Oakland counties, which to the non Michigan readers, is metro Detroit, Michigan.
The current carriers will move to back to YIP when AMTRAK has all their trains arrive ontime for one day and one day only. In other words, it ain't gonna happen. An upstart maybe.........
The buzz word is FLINT. The terminal expansion is going nicely and should be ready in December unless they hit some snags.
KARL..I too remember UA DC 8's and Caravelles, EA DC 8's and 720's and TW 707's with an 880 tossed in every now and then, running in and out of YIP.
It was fun to watch planes there.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
KYIPpilot
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RE: YIP: Potential Alternative To DTW?

Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:59 am

I too remember UA DC 8's and Caravelles, EA DC 8's and 720's and TW 707's with an 880 tossed in every now and then, running in and out of YIP.
It was fun to watch planes there.


I am too young to have seen that at YIP.  Sad

All there is now is some L-188's and DC-6's left over that will never fly again. Also scattered around are Beech 18's, Convairs, etc. Some of the L-188's still fly, but not very many. Those old Allison's make the coolest damn sound. As I look at the pictures on this site from YIP in the 70's, I really wish I could have been there "back in the day."
"It starts when you're always afraid; You step out of line, the man come and take you away" -Buffalo Springfield