vulindlela744
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 3:03 pm

Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:58 am

Just wondering if Delta's big announcement today will affect Air Tran's presence in DFW or ATL. Any thoughts???
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:06 am

>>>Any thoughts???

Yeah, with 50 737-700s on firm order (a handful delivered) and options for 50 more, I'd say they could simultaneously make life difficult for AA out of DFW, as well as DL out of ATL... They have to deploy them somewhere...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:08 am

I could see a slow growth, at first to stay under the radar of the sleeping bear......
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Kohflot
Posts: 941
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 1999 5:31 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:10 am

I bet Southwest beats them to the punch.....
Ask why..
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:15 am

>>>I bet Southwest beats them to the punch.....

Or buys them outright and kills 2 birds with 1 stone... (he said, as he released the clutch on the rumor machine...)  Big grin

(I've heard the rumor on other boards for years...Nothing new....)
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:56 am

I bet Southwest beats them to the punch.....


Highly unlikely, as Southwest enjoys their niche out of DAL. Sure the Wright Amendment hamstrings them in regards to where they can fly to, but establishing a DFW base would be completely against the spirit of the airline. They are doing well enough out of Love Field to not even need to operate out of DFW.

As for any AirTran expansion out of DFW, here's my short list of potential new service out of DFW:

DFW-SAV (2x a day)
DFW-DCA (2x a day) (There will be slots available when ASA drops out of DFW)
DFW-MSY (3x a day)
DFW-JAX (3x a day)
DFW-MEM (3x a day)
DFW-HOU (2x a day)
DFW-MCI (2x a day)
DFW-PBI (1x a day)
DFW-DEN (3x a day)

I could also see them bulking up DFW-LAS, DFW-LAX and DFW-MCO to perhaps 3-4x a day and possibly put a 737 or two on these routes.

 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5258
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:59 am

There will be slots available when ASA drops out of DFW)

No there won't. DL is going to take those slots and use them for other routes. You'll notice DL is adding 2x DCA-BOS flights...where do you think the slots for that are coming from?

 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:10 am

There is a way WN could start service from DFW and still keep the niche of DAL, just serve different cities out of each airport...... Take 6 gates minimum with a total of 10 flights a day = 60 flights from day one with no problem at all!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
ramerinianair
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:03 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:15 am

Running stations at two airports in the same city goies against WN's business plan. It is highly unlikely that they will do that!
As for FL, they will have a field day or they should if given the right oppertunity.
SR
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:17 am

They ran both DET and DTW at the same time for roughly 5 years......
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 3618
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RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:19 am

Why do you think having two or more stations at a destination is outside of WN's business plan? They serve IAH as well as HOU. WN serves LAX, SNA, BUR and ONT.
 
ont 737
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2001 10:19 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:20 am

Ramerinianair,

How about IAH and HOU?
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:21 am

>>>As for FL, they will have a field day or they should if given the right oppertunity.

Precisely why some (who've posted on various boards) feel that SWA could theoretically move to preempt FL's opportunity...

In addition to DET/DTW, SWA runs dual ops at IAH/HOU every day...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 3618
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:23 am

Does WN still fly to Detroit City Airport????

I agree...this is Air Trans golden opportunity. They probably could move back to DAL's terminal at DFW, once the gates free up. I'm sure there will be plenty available.

BTW, what will happen to DAL's maintenance base at DFW?
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:25 am

N they ended that service just shy of 5 years in the market. They had started DTW a good year before DET.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:28 am

>>>Does WN still fly to Detroit City Airport????

Nope... (thank heavens...)


>>>BTW, what will happen to DAL's maintenance base at DFW?

I've seen some speculation posted (elsewhere) that UPS will move to acquire it... Just rumor...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 3618
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:32 am

With AA depeaking their DFW hub and DL removing around 235 flights, flying in and out of DFW hasn't been too bad. If WN were to fly to DFW, I don't think WN would have too many delay problems there, outside of weather delays. Although, I do think you'll see AA increase ops more than just the 70 announced.
 
Kohflot
Posts: 941
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 1999 5:31 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:40 am

The beauty in having SWA service at DFW really doesn't have much to do with DAL - it's the connections.

MHT, PVD, BWI, CLE, BNA, MCO, FLL, TPA, MDW, STL, PHX, LAX, SAN, OAK, SJC, SLC, LAS, and SEA could all *easily* work out well.. and it would take pressure off of PHX for southeast-west connections.
Ask why..
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:47 am

>>>and it would take pressure off of PHX for southeast-west connections.

LAS as well...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
copaair737
Posts: 3571
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:00 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:43 am

I would think that FL will open up DFW-SFO. Will it be with a 717 or 73G? I would guess a 73G, as with the cut capacity from DL.

-Copa
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
quickmover
Posts: 2134
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:28 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:37 pm

This sounds like a perfect opportunity to take some of those 737-800s, rumored to be returned by ATA, and start more DFW flights. Does anyone know how the existing DFW Airtran flights are performing?
 
dsuairptman
Posts: 684
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 9:45 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:25 pm

Srbmod:

FL is getting new planes, but diffently not enough and at a fast enough pace to antcipate your fequency ideals from DFW. DFW will remain a focus city for FL for quite some time for a number of reasons.

-They haven't established themselves yet in a great portion of the Westrn US

- Again, the number of new planes and their rate of delivery will not allow for that significant of a buildup (FL will deffintly protect their claim at ATL before
branching out to claim a major peice of the pie at DFW)

- The AA monopoly will prevent drastic buildup. If FL makes a major shot at making a hub or large focus city @ DFW it will have to be done quietly and over a great length of time so as not to set off AA's intruder alarm, if they do it quickly and publicly AA has the means to crush FL altoghther at DFW, unlike their rather 'nice' relationship w/ DL @ ATL

- Remember the powerful force across the way at DAL in the form of WN, the grandpa of LCCs, and carrier with tons of loyalty in the metroplex region. FL flies to many of the same places as WN and with a one stop connection , WN pax can get to pretty much any destination in the WN system.

- Its one thing to be a FF on WN, to be one on AA and starting orgion travel from the DFW area is another one, with ferious loyalty, AA keeps O&D out of DFW very high via its FF members, they built such a reputation that not consdering travel on AA to from or through DFW is not an option, which keeps other carriers struggling for pax.

In end, I can see most of the places you listed as getting 1x daily on FL, but no more than that, as the fleet size will only allow ATL to get more than one frequncy to/from DFW . Also you foregot another important destination for FL from DFW, GPT. This route was flown in the late 90s before FL looked at DFW as a focus city, as a result the route was dropped due to low O&D, but with a focus city and some conncections that route will work.
GEAUX SAINTS!
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:52 pm

If WN does, in fact, fly out of both: DFW and DAL.....how does the wright amendment affect WN in this scenerio if WN starts DFW service and still flies out of DAL?

As for AirTran flying into DFW.....AA better be prepaired as its their home base!! You wouldnt want another carrier coming onto your turf and taking your business away....
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24517
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:15 pm

DFW-DCA (2x a day) (There will be slots available when ASA drops out of DFW)


No, there will not be. Delta/ASA will keep the slots, and reallocate them. The only time that slots become publicly available is when:

1) They are outside perimeter slots.
2) They are Special Rules slots, which are given to airlines that will either provide DCA service to new/underserved communities or provide low fare DCA service to DCA markets with little compietition

DFW-DCA is not one of these.

a.
 
vatveng
Posts: 1092
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:49 pm

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:13 pm

I've said it before, I will continue to have the following dream:

PHF-DFW nonstop.
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:22 pm

I've said it before, I will continue to have the following dream:

PHF-DFW nonstop.


For me it would be PHL-DFW nonstop.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
elwood64151
Posts: 2410
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 10:22 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:48 pm

First of all, it's AirTran, not Air Tran. Just a little pet peeve of mine.

Second, FL would have a difficult time spooling up flights out of DFW to replace the DL routes that will not be operating. They could do it slowly, but AA can recall ships from the desert faster than FL can put yet-to-be-built aircraft into service.

Even still, if they did decide to open up more routes at DFW, I can see the following:

DFW-DEN (717)
DFW-MCI (717)
DFW-HOU (717)
DFW-SFO (737)
DFW-ICT (717)
DFW-MEM (717)
DFW-MSY (717)
DFW-MIA (737)
DFW-MSP (737/717)
DFW-MDW (737/717)
DFW-TPA (717)
DFW-MKE (717)

And eventually adding cities like ABQ, PHX, SAN, TUS, SEA, PDX, SLC, etc., to balance the operations.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
quickmover
Posts: 2134
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:28 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:59 pm

AA is going to be in a monopoly position on several DFW routes now. FL doesn't need to go overboard, but if they don't at least take advantage of part of this, they are asleep at the wheel. My bet is that some of these Delta flyers are flying Delta because they don't like AA for some reason and want an alternative. If FL doesn't someone else will. I still haven't heard any more about ATA potentially letting some of their 800s go. Has anyone heard anything about that or how the existing FL DFW routes are performing? LAX and LAS are losing 7 mainline flights between the two. These are existing FL routes. Is more frequency warranted based on how they are performing now? I've heard DFW-LAS goes out full often as it is.
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:04 am

AA is not a subtle airline and they are very territorial. They would not let Airtran get a large presence unless it were done very quietly and without much "fanfare". AA has more than enough clout to beat back FL; the market at DFW that DL leaves behind will most likely be split with multiple LCC like Airtran, America West, Alaska and a number of others. Southwest may take a bit as well. AA will counter with a plethora of increased frequency and other offerings to make an immediate grab at what DL traffic was more local. The "change of plane" traffice will shift to CVG or SLC as needed.

Smart move by DL. They need to focus on core business hubs (CVG/ATL) and cut pay very dramatically to stay aloft. SLC will be the next to go.
One Nation Under God
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: Does DL Pullout From DFW Affect Air Tran

Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:44 am

"Smart move by DL. They need to focus on core business hubs (CVG/ATL) and cut pay very dramatically to stay aloft. SLC will be the next to go."

WRONG! That's why DL just announced that SLC will receive over 40 new flights and 13 new destinations. DFW's traffic was mostly split between ATL and SLC, CVG only benefitted from one new mainline flight, all others were DL Connection. SLC is here to stay in the DL network, adding flights to SLC will only increase connecting passenger numbers and revenue.

Jeremy

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