ual747den
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:45 pm

As most know I do not feel bad for the US Employees at all. If they voted to not give back and take the pay cuts they knew what would happen. I think unions are the worst thing to happen to business, they have taken many companies to the ground because they are selfish and power hungry. My thoughts are that most employees think that if the airline goes down they will have a job waiting for them at another airline that will take over routes that US had. They will have a rude reality check! Other airlines will call back all of their employees before hiring anyone from US and even then when the do open up positions US employees will have to apply just like anyone else. They will be treated like any other new hire and be paid like any other new hire. The other airlines are not doing very well either and they are not about to do any special favors for Ex US employees.

I want to hear your thoughts. Did you vote to give back? What do you think about the union? What will you do when the airline shuts down? Are you looking for another job now?
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
IL76TD
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:02 am

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut

Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:04 pm

yea, i've always found it funny that unions will reject pay cuts that will keep a company in business and keep the people employed, and in doing so cause the company to go bankrupt, at which point all union contracts are voided and the resulting loss of jobs and PAY is much greater. I agree partially that unions are bad for business, but i feel that union management is more at fault than the actual members.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:11 pm

I would have to agree with the original poster on this....Welcome to my respected user list.

US employees are in for a violent wild roller-coaster ride...they will see that after US folds, if they do, that there will be no other job waiting for them at other airlines unless they get very very very lucky. Hopefully they'll think twice before rejecting the company's latest proposal after all, the management at US has the scissors to cut the strings on one's employment AND the company's status too....
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
newbieflyer
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:18 pm

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:49 pm

NO,

I have to entirely disagree with at least part of your post. Unions are not inherently bad for business. In fact, if it weren't for unions we wouldn't be enjoying a GREAT deal of the workplace protections that ALL of us have these days. Union members fought, starved, and DIED for those rights that we all now have.

Even though modern unions sometimes make bad decisions and exercise their power in wrong ways, that does not mean the idea of unions is bad. If it wasn't for the power of organized workers, no individual worker would have any power.
 
CXA340
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 3:38 am

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:51 pm

I have friends that have worked in both the management, and the unionized side of airlines, and what I do not understand is when did the unions start making labor relations a war between their unionized employees and any non-unionized employee? Simply put, when did they decide to start battling against not only the company leaders, but anyone with a college degree working in an airline office?

I agree that certain unions still to this day have a place in certain industries, but the airline industry is seeing something very different. What has happened at both US and UA is that once concessions were asked for, the unions demanded non-unionized positions suffer unfairly as well as their own staff. Why is it that both UA and US, not to mention the other airlines, are having major problems finding college graduates to work in accounting, analytical, and computer related positions? These companies have been left with such little cash by which to find and hire qualified employees for these positions, that slowly they are decapitating the head of the organization. If an accounting/computer science/business/marketing/analytical field applicant with a good college degree can expect to earn 40K a year at another company, even being fresh out of college, why should they be expected to earn less at an airline? Conversely so, if a customer service agent for a phone, insurance, or utility company can expect to make 25-30K a year, why should they be demanding 45K at an airline? Why is the employee with the harder to obtain skills is becoming the target of the union for elimination, while demanding the employee with the more easily obtained skills become the more costlier liability, and in greater numbers?

I do not feel terribly bad for the US employees anymore, I have tried but no longer do I feel they are just suffering from the result of poor mangement decisions. When these employees, by themselves and through their unions, demand wages and benefits that make their company's margins so small, their basic product so expensive, and their financial stability and future uncertain, then I cannot feel bad for them when they suffer the consequences of their actions. These employees, like many unionized employees, refuse to take responsibility for their own actions, just as their management should take responsibility for theirs. When the average American family has a csi of aprox 60K a year, when a customer service agent with only a high school degree in other fields makes only 25-30K annually, then I cannot feel sorry for the flight attendent, customer service agent, ramp agent, or ticket agent who demands a higher wage compared to their counterparts in other industries, offers no more real skills than a high school education and a few weeks of training, and in the process helps to put their core product out of the financial reach of the millions of customers who are needed for their company to survive. The wage concessions offered at US were never unreasonable given the job function, training, skill level, and education of the employee when compared to comperable salaries for that same position within other industries. I have to feel that many of these employees are going to encounter a rude awakening to find out their airline skills will be in limited demand in an economy that demands a college education and skills in math and science, and not a high school diploma and a few years experiene ticketing passengers, or serving meals at 35,000ft. I'm sure many of them can find work in a call center near you for 25-30K a year, welcome to the economic reality of the semi-skilled worker.
 
NKP S2
Posts: 1665
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sat Sep 11, 2004 9:46 pm

US Employees What Do You Think, a ( another ) Pay Cut?

Is this directed at the minority percentage of employees remaining after mainline is shrunk and alter-egoed to express/RJ-ed down to around 100 A/C?

Or is question posed to the remaining majority who are somewhat reluctant to vote themselves out of a job? ( while helping to bankroll the above move )

Lots have already left, and are leaving, the urgency depending upon the degree of financial planning and security they posses. Lots and lots of those pigeonholed as possessing minimal education and skills ( due to the jobs they hold ) are in fact quite educated and have gone and are going their own way outside the industry, or their own businesses. They worked in the airlines because they enjoyed the work and it was a decent living. When the breaking point to where it is no longer worth it is reached....then it's time to move on. There is life outside of the airline industry. However, lots of others ( and I do mean lots ) have gone to those carriers that would "never hire formerly unionized employees" ( or somesuch rhetoric...JetBlue hiring many ) or non-airline aviation positions. No, for many, round 3 is enough, especially if round 3 means falling on one's sword to the benefit of those that have cut so many's compensation and furloughed so many others. Depends on their personal preference. How this all flies with some peripherally informed denizens of of an enthusiast website is of no consequence to those making actual lifetime decisions ( as opposed to just conversation/kibbitzing ).

Poll: Irrelevant. Flame bait.

[Edited 2004-09-11 15:15:23]
 
txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 7:39 am

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:31 pm

A few thoughts for UAL747DEN, who doiesn't seem to grasp the history of this particular situation.

Airline management is neither inherfently good nor bad. Unions are neither inherently good or bad. That's the first key point.

Unions are there to represent employee groups during negotiations concerning compensation, work rules, the like. Management's responsibility is to look after the shareholder's interests and avoid giving away the farm.

In the case of USAirways, the employees have been through one bankruptcy and two rounds of wage concessions. Their management has taken these concessions and done.....NOTHING. At least nothing constructive.

A lot of folks are assigning blame to the unions for a possible USAirways failure. While that may have been true with some carriers in the past, this time I think you can hold the company's management pretty much solely responsible fot their demise should it occur.

Unions have not been responsible for flawed business plans. USAirways overall structure and system is flawed to the point that, even if all the employees worked for free and there were NO labor costs, the ASM cost would still be very high.

Although in terms of overall dollars and cents the multi-million dollar "golden parachute" severance packages that USAirways executives walked away from the company with were a drop in the bucket, the damage to employee morale and labor's perception of their so-called company leadership has been huge. The company has, in essence, been rewarding management for getting them in the mess they are in.

It is especially bad that they would hand over several million to an executive responsible for getting them into this mess at the very same time they are cutting pay, not to mention pensions, while laying off employees, yet hiring new ones for their subsidiary companies at substantially lowered pay scales.

USAirways has even been awarding management bonuses so that they can "retain their high quality management personnel." Excuse me? If this is high quality, please don't show me the slightly defective on the discount rack. I am not sure, but I think the company would have done just as well to grab the guy on the street corner holding up a sign "will work for food", give him two cans of green beans and a box of macaroni, and appoint him executive vice president. Certainly, they could not have done any worse.

There are unionized carriers out there....Southwest comes to mind......that continue to prevail and be successful with a unionized work force. Thus, the union=bad, non union= good argument doesn't hold up.

Bottom line - should USAirways employees suck up another round of concessions? Hoss, that's not for us to say....only the employees affected by the decision should make that call. However, after what the employees have already done......my response to management would be to go pound sand.

 
LMP737
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:41 pm

UAL747DEN:

After working five years in the airline industry I have seen both sides do some incredibly stupid things. So for you to point the finger at one and not the other is somewhat naive.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
coa764
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:00 pm

UAL747DEN

My first question to you is: Do you work for an airline?

If the answer is "no" then what business do you have criticizing unions as well as commenting about issues like pay cuts. The problems at US started years ago and have been compounded by the events over the last few years to the breaking point this Sunday. Those employees have already given back over 1 billion over the last two years how much bleeding do you expect them employee group to do? You might be thinking that making below your min annual cost of living is better than being out a job, well which is the worst of the two evils?

Take your grocery store for example. You say unions are bad and that the employees that are represented are even worse, why? Why is it so bad that someone that scans groceries for a living wants a little better quality of life for themselves? They work in a grocery store you moron, it isn't like they get a lot to begin with! Wake up high speed, those unions are there to protect them from the Super Wal-Mart's of the world. How well is the quality of life for that single mother of two working two jobs, one at Wal-mart 29 hours a week with no benefits because they cap her hours just below full time status. If she ever gets full time she also gets one week of vacation after one year and lousy benifits after six month with no overtime to speak of. The whole time under constant pressure to do right by everyone because she can be let go at any moment not to mention her pittance annual raise that is based off of how well you perform (translated: does your manager like you or not). That same mother of two working at the grocery store under a union contract gets a little more pay, guaranteed annual raises (based on a scale agreed to by both sides), benefits, vacation, and some sort of job security provided under the terms of the contract.

UAL - Those employees have given back 2.5 billion back in pay cuts and they are still in bankruptcy with a 30 September deadline to present a restructuring plan. 2.5 billion in give backs could still lead to the unemployment line so who is right and what is better for the individual that is actually involved in the process. It is real easy to sit behind you computer and criticize, anonymously I might add, on A.net the actions of others but until you are actually impacted you really have no platform from which to base your criticism. You profile says you will be flying soon, if and when you get on with an airline and a seniority number come on back and discuss your aversions to organized labor and until then back off of the issues you don't understand.
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
AA717driver
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:59 pm

Having voted for at least three concessionary contracts to try to keep my job, and having lost it after I voted the last time, you've got to say what's the point?TC
FL450, M.85
 
wbmech
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:23 am

There has to be point where the employees take a stand against inept management. Each time US management comes to the employees it is do or die. Well maybe the unions are finally calling US' bluff.
 
burnsie28
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut

Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:41 am

Actually it was smart of them to reject it, why, because even with the concessions they still would have gone under, so why not get as much money as you can before that happens.
 
ScooterTrash
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 10:39 am

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:53 am

Great... Back from a killer four day trip and the first thing I find on A.net is another "armchair CEO flamebait thread." Well...

I won't ask if you work in the industry, UAL747DEN, because I can tell the by the tone of your post you do not. It is entirely possible that you aren't even out of college yet and are still getting support from mommy and daddy. Maybe, maybe not.

Your question to U employees (of which I am one, as a wholly-owned pilot) is entirely too simple. As for the pilots, it was not really relevant to the impending second bankruptcy that they agreed to the concessions. US Airways will file irregardless of ANY employee givebacks... They simply are not in a cash position to meet their loan covenants. It is as simple as that.

My opinion? As for the pilots, I think that their ALPA MEC should have at least given the pilots the opportunity to vote. I would have voted for the concessions (if I was a mainline pilot) as I feel it is better to have a little say in my loss of compensation than none in BK court. I understand that it is a tough decision for everyone involved, and I hold no ill will to anyone who votes either way.

You know kid (that is what you are), I have a heck of a dog in this fight. If US Airways liquidates I will probably lose my career. With two kids I can't go back and take another entry level job at some regional for $20K per year... Even if my wife works. 12 years of pouring my heart and soul into a job that I truly love will be gone. I don't expect you to understand, since you seem to have little perspective or life experience, but maybe you will begin to get an idea why I am angry that people seem to think it's all good for me to work for free. It ain't about getting rich, it's about supporting my family.

One last thing: As for your comment regarding how "bad" unions are, that is a bunch of crap. While there has been greed on both sides of the fence (I am the first on to agree mainline salaries have to be rationalized) ALPA and APA have fought management for nearly every safety enhancement in aviation in use today. From nav lights, to duty limits to CRM training... Unions have protected the lives of pilots, flight attendants and passengers. If you fly, to some degree you owe your continued existence on this planet to Unions.

Scooter
 
milesrich
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:58 am

I get a real Kick out of the adolescents that post on this board concerning Unions. These kids probably drive new BMW's provided by their parents and have never had to work for the necessities of life. Or perhaps these posts bashing unions are written by adults who just don't get it. Without unions, there were be no laws against hiring children, no health care benefits, no 401K's, no pensions, etc.

If human beings think that their fellow human beings are no more than commodities like corn, or steel, or oil, and that wages should be as low as a pure market will place them, I feel very sorry for them.

The problem in the airline industry is not the unions. Delta is losing billions and only their pilots are unionized. Yet they have laid off thousands of non CBA workers, and are going to cut the pay of those that are still around. I do not want to debate that the Delta pilots need to make concessions and work for Southwest type wages, as I think they should, and if they don't, Delta Management should file Chapter 11. However, at Southwest, every worker group is unionized. Are the unions at Southwest the reasons for WN's success?

The problem in the airline industry is that many of the workers have no other skills that they can readily apply in other industries, and that the job situation, regardless of what the Christian's God, George W. Bush, claims, is very weak. Sure, there are jobs at $10.00 -12.00 an hour. Try paying a mortgage, or car payment on those wages. Pilots who make $100K-$250K a year cannot just quit and sell their skills elsewhere.

The problem in the airline industry is pricing. Pure and Simple. The planes are 75-80% full and the airlines are losing money. Everytime some airline tries to raise fares, another airline refuses to raise theirs, and the airline with higher fares is forced to rescind the increase. Unions have nothing to do with it.

Management at airlines have used labor wars to pit one group of employees against the other. Look at the Regional Jets and commuter subsidiaries of AA and DL. The cost of flying an RJ is about 11 cents per mile, but Delta's costs of 9.83 cents per mile system wide result in billions in losses. Yet Delta has increasingly dropped mainline service and substituted regional jets. Why, because they pay their regional flight attendants less than half of what they do at mainline, and the pilots make even less. Why do they fly airplanes that cost more to operate? So they can use ASA and Comair as a wedge against ALPA. Remember when Comair went on strike in 2000, which was the beginning of Delta's demise? Management "cancelled" aircraft orders by transferring the orders to other subsidiaries.

I don't blame the US Airways pilots one bit. They already have given huge concessions. Most (over 50% of pre 2001 levels) have already lost their jobs, or been forced to fly for the commuters. For the sake of the industry, they need to say no. And ALPA should force their employers at the remaining airlines to hire these men and women back with a priority. There are too many carriers, and perhaps the elimination of USAirways just might allow Delta and others to survive. Otherwise, a race to the bottom will continue. US Airways pilots take less. Then the other surviving carriers will want their pilots to work for the same wages. How low should the wages be? Should airline pilots work for peanuts like school teachers do?
 
Matt D
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:05 am

Without unions, there were be no laws against hiring children, no health care benefits, no 401K's, no pensions, etc.

You raise a good point, but greed flows both ways. If it weren't because of Unions, we wouldn't have seen as many layoffs and as much outsourcing as we have.

 
foxiboy
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:10 am

I have worked in this industry for the best part of 15 years here in the UK,and there have been both good times and bad I have been with a carrier that went under without warning, and due the impact of the sad events in NYC in 2001 I have been made redundant. I have had the misfortune of working for both bad and good companies in the past. However I think it is sad that some people who post replays on here need a kick in the pants, making it clear that they wish all the us air staff would looses their jobs in turn income homes etc and in some cases even worse, when will people realize that most people in This industry will bend over backwards for their employer as much as they can but you cannot expect employees to keep giving . They have bills same as management but unlike management they don't get the same size salary.
Point being why don't the management/shareholders give something back.
But I am one of the lucky ones who found employment in my chosen career
I know a hell of a lot that were not so lucky.
JUST THINK PEOPLE SOME OF YOU NOT IN THE INDUSTRY YET MAY BE IN THE SAME POSITION AS THE US AIR PEOPLE NOW.
Its so so sad to see airlines go and having to deal with the fallout
 
coa764
Posts: 309
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:25 am

If it weren't because of Unions, we wouldn't have seen as many layoffs and as much outsourcing as we have.

Actually depending on the language in the contract the company cannot outsource nor can it just lay off without going to the union first. I will give you an example of non-union layoffs that I witnessed first hand. In one day before noon Enron laid off the bulk of it's work force with no warning and the only reason anyone had the notion that something was afoot was the large police presence both in and outside the building. They cut folks in large groups and told them they were laid off, to leave the building immediately and that they would be contacted the following week of when to return for their personal items. In contrast at CO after 9/11 the company approached the union and told them that by this date x number of people were going to have to be cut so I knew what day it was coming. The other side of that coin is that when time came to recall I had a number to come back to. The other non-union employees in the company had little to no warning and no seniority number to return to. So in a way paying union dues is like paying for job insurance in that you know when it is coming and you know you get to come back.

[Edited 2004-09-11 18:32:26]
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
A330323X
Posts: 2666
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:06 pm

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:30 am

If they voted to not give back and take the pay cuts they knew what would happen.

Nobody has voted on anything! You're blaming the employees for voting down pay cuts, when they haven't even been given the opportunity to vote! If you want to blame someone, blame 4 members (a minority) of the ALPA MEC, don't blame the employees for something they didn't do.

Oh, sorry, didn't mean to let facts get in the way.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 7:39 am

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:36 am

>>Nobody has voted on anything! You're blaming the employees for voting down pay cuts, when they haven't even been given the opportunity to vote!<<

Actually, the representatives voting were elected by union membership.

Their votes are proportional based upon the number of people they represent.

The union by-laws prescribe that a tentative agreement be sent to the union membership for a vote.....not just any and every management proposal that comes along.

The four representatives "holding the line" represent a majority of the union membership. Their 4 votes count for more than the other 8.

If the union voted on a proposal, and the company filed bankruptcy, and a BK judge abrogated the contract, the pilot's union would have no recourse to self-help. Thus it is very important that only a bona fide TA (tentative agreement) go to a vote.

The S1113 or S1114 (I forget which) letter that the company would provide the pilot's union (basically saying that if we do go to BK court we won't attempt to abrogate your agreement) was only good for 60 days.

During the negotiation (and I use that term loosely) process, the company continued to undervalue various concessions the pilots were willing to make, continued to increase the amount of concessions they were demanding, and, all things considered, can not be given credit for "bargaining in good faith" by the reasonable and prudent individual.

Oh, sorry, I didn;t mean to let facts get in the way.
 
A330323X
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:56 am

continued to increase the amount of concessions they were demanding

US increased the wage consessions because that's what ALPA asked them to do! ALPA said they'd rather have greater wage concessions, and fewer productivity improvements.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 7:39 am

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:20 am

If you want to get REALLY specific, I believe what transpired was the union told the company "hands off our defined contribution pension plan" (which replaced the defined benefit pension plan tossed out in a previous round of concessions)...and when they were told that, the company came up with a wage offer which, depending on whom you believe, had 18-yr left seat pilots on Airbus/737 sized aircraft earning $58,000 per year.
 
A330323X
Posts: 2666
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:06 pm

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:42 am

If you want to get REALLY specific, I believe what transpired was the union told the company "hands off our defined contribution pension plan" (which replaced the defined benefit pension plan tossed out in a previous round of concessions)...and when they were told that, the company came up with a wage offer which, depending on whom you believe, had 18-yr left seat pilots on Airbus/737 sized aircraft earning $58,000 per year.

Nope, I'm not talking about the pensions.

I'm talking about productivity improvements.

ALPA told US to increase the wage concessions, because ALPA didn't want JetBlue workrules. Then some pilots complained that US was asking for more and more concesstions.

Here's a quote from a recent letter to the pilots from Lakefield. (I know it's not necessarily the best source; there's a Pollock quote around too that I don't have time to look for at the moment.)

"Our original proposal had pay cuts significantly lower than the one the MEC rejected on Monday evening. But the steeper pay cuts you have been hearing about reflected the direction of the Negotiating Committee, which told us more than once that it would not accept many of the work rule and productivity changes that exist at the other low-cost carriers, and instead, wanted to make up the difference with higher pay cuts. We still believe this is the wrong approach and do not agree with the Negotiating Committee that forcing you into deeper pay cuts while ignoring critical productivity improvements is the way to transform into a competitive airline."
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 7:39 am

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:47 am

Well, A330, and I don't mean this negatively....but looking at your profile you are between 16 and 20 yrs of age. I was between 16 and 20 yrs of age, once upon a time, and was pretty certain that I knew everything. By the time I got to 30, I was pretty sure I didn't.....and my wife was always glad to help remind me that I didn't.

But here's my question...since you seem to be a pretty sharp guy:

How much should they make?

How much do you think that the USAirways pilots ought to be willing to accept? Certainly, this is a question well within the penumbra of this topic.

To keep it simple, let's just pick one type of aircraft. Let's say the A319/B737 size of airplane.

What would you pay a topped out pilot, per hour?

....I anxiously await your decision, and I am sure any USAirways pilots out there in internet land will also be looking forward to your response.
 
A330323X
Posts: 2666
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:06 pm

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:06 am

Well, A330, and I don't mean this negatively

The hell you don't.  Laugh out loud

I was between 16 and 20 yrs of age, once upon a time, and was pretty certain that I knew everything.

Well I'm pretty certain that I don't know everything.

How much should they make?

How much do you think that the USAirways pilots ought to be willing to accept? Certainly, this is a question well within the penumbra of this topic.

To keep it simple, let's just pick one type of aircraft. Let's say the A319/B737 size of airplane.

What would you pay a topped out pilot, per hour?

....I anxiously await your decision, and I am sure any USAirways pilots out there in internet land will also be looking forward to your response.


I don't have answers to those questions, and I've never pretended to. Don't attempt to put words in my mouth and say that I'm advocating these concessions.

I generally avoid posting at all in these sorts of topics.

I've never given an opinion as to whether I think the concessions being sought by US are or are not fair.

Above, I noted that ALPA wanted additional wage concessions instead of productivity improvements. I merely pointed that out to correct the misconception that US was continually increasing its demands. I didn't say whether or not I thought ALPA's desires were a bad thing. Lakefield didn't think they made a whole lot of sense, but as long as the value of the concessions was the same, he was happy enough with it. It's ALPA's prerogative to bargain as it sees fit.

The only position I've taken, and continue to take, is that the pilots should be given the opportunity to vote on the concessions, that 4 pilots (a minority of the MEC) shouldn't be able to control the fate of 3,200. (And I repeat that if PIT/PHL are a small majority of the pilots, and the reps in question were elected by a small majority of PIT/PHL, they *were not* elected by a majority of the pilots.) I believe that the concessions would pass if the membership voted on them, but that's different than believing they should pass.

(And I've got to run, so I won't be able to respond again in the near future.)
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
AA717driver
Posts: 1502
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:27 am

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:30 am

This was a PROPOSAL. Not a TA. With a TA, you get contract language(generally). The company could have nickel and dimed this proposal after its approval by the MEC to the point that it was unrecognizable from its present form.

The majority members(in terms of numbers represented) were right to refuse to put this out to the membership. Even an approval by the entire membership would have guaranteed NOTHING.

Everyone who is blaming the pilots for putting USAir in jeapordy must have had their heads in the sand for the past two years.TC
FL450, M.85
 
SonOfACaptain
Posts: 1695
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 5:36 am

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:39 am

UAL747DEN, please read the following: (Source- Business section of the Dallas Morning News)

“ Frustrated with their union leaders, hundreds of US Airways pilots emailed their top boss directly and succeeded Friday in eliciting a new contract proposal from the company…One pilot separately called it a “grassroots” effort by pilots to save their jobs.”

Also see http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1736347/

Now, this post does not only appall me but I am very, very angry about it. How dare you say the employees want to loose their jobs? If it weren’t for FOUR hotshot MEC pilots, US Airways would have concessions from their pilots right now. But even this didn’t stop the pilots from trying to help their company. I am very proud of how the US Airways employees are handling this tragic situation. One thing is for sure, if US Airways goes down, they are going down fighting, unlike others from the past.

-SOAC

PS- None of the employees (at least the pilots) are thinking that they are just going to find other jobs, for none of them are young enough. The only guys left are all former captains who have been flying for US 18+ years.
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut

Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:26 am

You know, when Chrysler was in distress, he got great employee sacrifices. He also worked for nothing but $1.00 and a lot of stock options that would only be valuable if he could turn Chrysler around.

I challenge US management at all upper levels to do the same (or very similar variations, given that some of them cannot afford to work for the $1 dollar, but maybe $50,000 instead of $500,000).

Steve
 
A330323X
Posts: 2666
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:47 am

This was a PROPOSAL. Not a TA. With a TA, you get contract language(generally). The company could have nickel and dimed this proposal after its approval by the MEC to the point that it was unrecognizable from its present form.

While it might be true that you get contract language with a TA in normal times, that hasn't necessarily been the case with the previous rounds of concessions at US, due to the time constraints involved. As you guessed it might, it has indeed caused some disagreements and grievances about interpretations after the fact. I believe labor has won some of these grievances--something about sick policy comes to mind.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
ual747den
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:04 am

Looks like I made many mad, some of you make a point others don't know what you are talking about.

First, for the people that say its not the employees, its the unions that are destroying the airline. I completely agree, however the employees are in charge of the unions. If you do not like what the unions are doing stand up against them. Overthrow them, this is the last chance you have to fight for your job or take what the union gives you. For the people that say nobody has voted for anything, well yes they have voted not to vote and that was a pretty big statement. It was basically a no vote because the employees are still not giving back and the airline is still going into the ground. Again see above!

Second, for the people that say it goes both ways, the airline management has not done enough either. I agree with that argument also. They did not do what they needed to do, but I believe now they get the point. They are no longer worrying about political pressure and they are doing what needs to be done to stay alive. (getting out of PIT) The only thing the people using this argument don't understand is that no matter how bad employees think management has been they still MUST agree to concessions or they will not have a job and management will not have a chance to fix things. This is the end of the road, you will give back and have a job or not and be on the street.

TxAgKuwait,
You cannot blame everything on management in this situation. There is no example that I can think of where you can give 100% of the blame to either side for that matter. It is clear that many employees don't agree with the union and want a chance to agree to concessions but the union will not give them that chance. That is exactly what a union should not do, and a perfect example of a power hungry union that would rather see the airline gone than feel like they have been defeated.

COA764,
No I do not work directly for any airline, however I have just as much right as anyone else to comment about anything I want. That is what a forum is for. Now what gives me even more right to comment is that I am a share holder (Although not is US thank god!)
Why is it so bad that someone that scans groceries for a living wants a little better quality of life for themselves? They work in a grocery store you moron, it isn't like they get a lot to begin with! Wake up high speed, those unions are there to protect them from the Super Wal-Mart's of the world. How well is the quality of life for that single mother of two working two jobs, one at Wal-mart 29 hours a week with no benefits because they cap her hours just below full time status. If she ever gets full time she also gets one week of vacation after one year and lousy benefits after six month with no overtime to speak of. The whole time under constant pressure to do right by everyone because she can be let go at any moment not to mention her pittance annual raise that is based off of how well you perform (translated: does your manager like you or not). That same mother of two working at the grocery store under a union contract gets a little more pay, guaranteed annual raises (based on a scale agreed to by both sides), benefits, vacation, and some sort of job security provided under the terms of the contract.
This is a great example because it fits into the airline industry perfectly. What you don't understand is that the store, or the airline has to attract customers to make money. So you have Wal-mart (LCC Airlines) and you have Kroger (USAir) Kroger employees are represented by a union and are paid a lot more for doing the exact same job as the person working at Walmart. Im most cases the person working at Wal-mart will actually work harder because they know that if they are not meeting performance standards they can be fired. Now Kroger knows that they have to keep their prices within pennies of the Walmart prices or the customers will not shop their. How do they do that when they are required to pay the employees so much more? They either need pay cuts to be made or they will go out of business because they will not be profitable. Same with the airlines, the major carriers have to try to get the cost of labor among other things low enough to compete with the LCC's or they will go out of business. This is very simple, the employees work for less or they don't have a job because when all the Kroger stores close Wal-mart will still be paying the same low wages. The only way you will ever make more is work your way into management.

I think some of the people on here fail to understand what the airline business is all about. Its about the shareholders making money, nothing else. Airlines in America are not like other airlines around the world where the government uses them to generate business for their country's other business'. Airlines in America are owned by shareholders that want to make a profit and get a return on their money. It is not good enough for an airline to just break even or make a little bit of money. Shareholders want to make a steady income on their investment and if they do not then they will not invest and there will be no airline. Right now the only thing that will save US is for concessions to be made. It seems that employees are starting to understand, however the unions wont even let it go to the polls because they don't want to be thought of as week. At this point the employees need to over power the union and make their own decision or accept the fact that they will no longer have a job. Employees must choose between 2 evils, terrible pay, or no pay at all....
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:22 am

TxAgKuwait,
You cannot blame everything on management in this situation. There is no example that I can think of where you can give 100% of the blame to either side for that matter. It is clear that many employees don't agree with the union and want a chance to agree to concessions but the union will not give them that chance. That is exactly what a union should not do, and a perfect example of a power hungry union that would rather see the airline gone than feel like they have been defeated.


Gotta agree with Tex here...this baby's all management. They went to the workers (union workers) and asked AND GOT concessions...TWICE. Folks that had been making $40k saw their pay, benefits and PENSIONS drop. Their pay in many cases has dropped to $18k a year. But management squandered all that and comes knocking for a third time. Now, I'm not much of a union guy, but if I and others gave MILLIONS back to the company in the form of concessions, and managment has led them to the brink of bankruptcy again, I'd balk a bit when they asked. What do you expect the employees to do?

Here's where US management screwed the company...they got all that money from labor and....kept with "business as usual". Then Southwest got into Philly and they got religion and announced "Go Fares". Too little, too late. They SHOULD have started Go Fares right after the concessions. They SHOULD have worked on increasing revenues from the start. Instead it was giveaway trips from coast to coast, and bend over the business passenger on captive markets. I'm a big SWA fan, but if US would have done Go Fares a year ago, I think SWA would have faced a pretty tough battle in PHL. Instead, they resort to filling flights at a loss, all in the name of "market share".
 
swardu
Posts: 76
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:45 am

I see both sides of the fence here. Problem is the unions can only "react" based on what Corporate Management does. If management asks for cuts, the unions agree to these cuts the 1st time and management utilizes the money wisely, then you have a win-win situation. But in the case of US and UA, where management consistantly asks for money, and US and UA still being/facing bankruptcy, where is this money going? Don't the unions have a right to question the utilization of constant pay givebacks (case in point Eastern) if the company keeps squawking bankruptcy and the unions see NO improvement or the company is still in bankruptcy? I believe the union does have that right to be a watchdog in this case. I also believe the rank and file have the right to ask it's union representatives TO question company management especially in the cases of US and UA, where they are facing imminent bankruptcy again or still in bankruptcy as to WHERE their pay givebacks are going. Eastern was a prime example of where union AND non union employees gave, gave and gave some more and Lorenzo took, took, took and spun this unit off, then that unit, then another unit. When the unions questioned, then struck, no more Eastern---there wasn't anything left to sell off. I know--- I was a part of ALL that mess.

I am not necessarily pro union OR pro company, but I will say the union has it's place within a big corporate airline and if it feels that it needs to question some of the company's business practices and act as a watchdog for it's rank and file, then it should do so, but there should also be some unison cooperatives efforts on BOTH parts to be successful. One can only act or react as smartly as the other acts or reacts.
 
flybynight
Posts: 1131
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:48 am

I work for a non-unionized company, so please do not assume that corporations will take advantage of their employees just because there isn't a union present. I have a great comp package, both from a salary and benefits point of view.

While unions can certainly do a lot of good, I also believe a lot of unions have outlived their usefulness (grocery unions in California, for example).

If it gets down to the point where it is the difference between USAirways flying and going under, I think it is time to look at the big picture.

Scootertrash - I feel really bad for the potential loss of your career. That just sucks. I believe your union helped you get a good benefits package and salary for many years.
The question I would ask of you is very simple - Is it better to reduce your pay (or something similar), or loose the job? Along those lines, what are your prospect of getting a similar job?
Difficult decisions, for sure.
Heia Norge!
 
txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 7:39 am

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 10:02 am

>>It is clear that many employees don't agree with the union and want a chance to agree to concessions but the union will not give them that chance.<<

As I understand the by-laws of USAirways' pilots unit...and I will admit my understanding is pretty limited...the union CAN NOT submit a management proposal to the rank and file for a vote. It has to be a TA. And once submitted to the membership, the union loses the right to self-help should the company file for bankruptcy and a BK judge imposes new contractual terms on the unit.

My understanding also is that the 4 obstructionist members of the negotiating committee represent over 50% of the ALPA members at the company, were duly elected by their constituents, and have the responsibility and authority to do what they are doing.

It doesn't matter if we agree or disagree with their acts....they are representing their constitutents as they deem proper.

They must be doing something right.....the company has ponied up their 4th "last best offer."

However, if the employees are so concerned about being poorly served by a union, they should not have gone union in the first place. Or if they resent a union representing them and they have to pay dues even though they do not support the union, they should elect people who will overturn the Railway Labor Act. A little late for that now.

If I were a pilot working for USAirways, I would not be terribly worried about the company going into bankruptcy and not having a new concessionary contract. I doubt seriously that a bankruptcy judge will be any worse than the offers currently proffered by USAirways management. And regardless of what any of USAirways' unions do, this puppy is headed to bankruptcy. There ought not be the slightest doubt about that.

Once upon a time, did USAirways employees make too much with too lax a bunch of work rules? Sure they did. Did a lot of that get corrected during the precious two rounds of concessions. You betcha. Did management continue to cling to a failed business model of "give away a bunch of seats below cost to compete with LCCs then bend the last-minute business type traveler over the table to extort $450 each way for a 1 hr flight from him"? Yes, they sure as heck did, in fact, they're still doing it.

So what do you do if you are a prudent employee concerned about the future of the company? You let this management ride the horse into bankruptcy court, then let the union demonstrate how the company failed to bargain in good faith, then you pray like heck that the court tosses this inept management group out on its ear and appoints a trustee to take over.

That's not only the best chance the USAirways employees have, it's the ONLY chance they have. The current employees could pay the company for the privilege of working there, and IMHO the management would figure out a way to mess things up.

Let me paint a picture for you: I believe the current management at USAirways would be capable of taking a '73 Gremlin with a cracked block, pitted with rust, a bent frame...taking it out of a Michigan junkyard and messing it up even further.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3960
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 10:03 am

Their pay has already been reduced...twice....and those concessions have been squandered by management. Why would they fall for a 3rd time?


I have heard these new proposed rates are along the lines of a regional airline. Thats just getting rediculous.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
ual747den
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 10:36 am

XFSUgimpLB41X Writes:
Their pay has already been reduced...twice....and those concessions have been squandered by management. Why would they fall for a 3rd time?


Because if they don't they will have no job at all, that means no pay at all, NOTHING. For most that also means they will have no where to look for work either. Their skills from working at US are not needed or useful in other business, and the other airlines that will be moving in will have no room for them. As I stated before even if by some Marcel they do the former US employees will have to apply just like anyone else and they will make the same starting pay as the person with no experience. I can assure you that this pay package will be far less than what they would have made if they would have taken the concessions.

At this point all of this talk is what they SHOULD have done or what they COULD have done. Most of us know that its over for US they had the chance, but didn't do it when they could have. Now that they are Bankrupt again its over for US. There will be no other option than the airline going into liquidation. There is no investor in their right mind that would put another dollar into a company that not even the employees want to survive.
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
ScooterTrash
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 10:39 am

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:04 am

Flybynight:

I believe your union helped you get a good benefits package and salary for many years.


I think I need to restate that I am NOT a US Airways mainline pilot. I fly for one of the wholly-owned express carriers. Therefore while I do not have any representation at these so-called "negotiations", the results directly effect my continued employment. You can think of my situation as analogous to the English Colonies in America in the 18th Century: Taxation without representation, so to speak.

As for having good benefits and pay... Well, it's been so-so. For a while I was close to the top of the regional scale for my equipment. While I have never earned a mint it was enough to keep my family fed, my daughter in daycare and us all in a small townhouse. We even fed the dogs occasionally.

We at my part of US Airways Group (Piedmont) gave a hefty chunk along with everyone else in the first round of concessions. It hurt, but I was willing to do it because I bought into the idea that if we helped the company out of BK all would be well. Boy, did I get screwed on that one!

Now for your question:

Is it better to reduce your pay (or something similar), or loose the job? Along those lines, what are your prospect of getting a similar job?


I depends on how low we are talking, and what the business plan looks like. I put a high value on the stability that my seniority affords me, so I would rather not run to another airline. There is a floor to what I am willing to give, and it is not that much less than what I make right now. At $32,000 per year (5th year FO pay), I am not hurting the bottom line at US Airways.

As for other jobs? Well, the fractionals are hiring, so that is a possibility. As far as other airlines go, I would take a $10,000 to $12,000 per year pay hit to start over at another regional. With two kids I probably can't do that. It's tough, and I don't have any answers right now.


 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3960
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RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:42 am

Scooter- you a CA? with 1000 PIC you qualify for FedEx 500 for AirTran... theres some definite stability for ya- at least for a while...never know with this industry. Good luck to you bro... I certainily wish you and your fam the best.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
coa764
Posts: 309
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:32 am

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:04 pm

This is a great example because it fits into the airline industry perfectly. What you don't understand is that the store, or the airline has to attract customers to make money. So you have Wal-mart (LCC Airlines) and you have Kroger (USAir) Kroger employees are represented by a union and are paid a lot more for doing the exact same job as the person working at Walmart.

You theory has one single solitary flaw.. The king of LLC Airlines is SWA (aka-Wal-Mart) and as the point was brought before (of which you did not respond) SWA has turned a profit for quite sometime now and while working with organized labor. I think you are missing the boat on just how a union contract works, it is an agreement that both sides ratify. The union doesn't just rattle it's saber and get a lucrative contract there is give and take on both sides. If a company allows a contract that is financially unreasonable then fault the companies negotiators for signing the agreement, not the folks that asked for it. You are just a kid that has this ideal dream of a perfect utopian workplace were management and employees get along just fine an you will in time learn otherwise.

Im most cases the person working at Wal-mart will actually work harder because they know that if they are not meeting performance standards they can be fired

Here is something else you will learn as you go though life, Organized labor does not make an unproductive employee... A lazy person with zero work ethics makes an unproductive employee and that formula applies both to the folks at Kroger and Wal-Mart. I have seen lazy, unproductive folks that try and work the system at both union and non-union work places. You do a grave injustice to all in unions by labeling them unproductive but hey you young and even if your parents aren't still paying the bills you still have time learn.

Same with the airlines, the major carriers have to try to get the cost of labor among other things low enough to compete with the LCC's or they will go out of business. This is very simple, the employees work for less or they don't have a job because when all the Kroger stores close Wal-mart will still be paying the same low wages.

Wrong, LLC's aka the Wal-Mart offer lower prices because they have someone to undercut with prices. Again a point that was offered before you chose not to respond to this is the same with US and SWA. US goes under and leaves SWA the powerhouse out of PHL to FLA airports there goes the competition on those routes. Now granted you still have the other NY metros to contend with but SWA can still up their fairs and not worry about competition. The only reason you have LLC's is because there are the major network Carriers. They all disappear and the LLC's suddenly become the majors and pricing goes up.


You said on a previos thread
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1736084/6/
I don't feel sorry for the employees of US at all. They made this decision, if they would have just voted to give back they would not have to start looking for another job. Unions are a big joke and will drive a company into the ground as we see so often. The employees should know how bad the airline is doing and if they don't want to give back anything I say they just fire the union and the money that would have went to dues can now go to the airline. The airline would get more than they asked for and everyone would be happy. Now the employees that didn't want to give up anything to keep their job will have no job at all and no other airline will hire them because they will call up their own people first. If by some off chance an airline does hire them they will start off at minimum wage and at the bottom of the pole. Now for all of you people crying about how this is so bad because a lot of cities will lose their only carrier, if that is true and no other airline wants the routes, they must not be profitable routes. Why wouldn't another airline want to step in and take over a profitable route? THEY WOULD! But like you said many routes will be left with no service and those very routes are the same reason that US will be out of business, This is not a charity service. No airline should be flying a route that doesn't make money only because its the only way for people to get out. If the people don't want to pay enough money to make it profitable than they can walk for all I care. The US employees did this to themselves, they didn't want to give back and now lets see how far they go with nothing! Im sure they will wish they would have taken that pay cut when their house is foreclosed.

Bye Bye US employees, you got what you asked for!!



Here is a small piece of advise from a greedy, unproductive, whinny, clown like union type. If your goal is to fly for a living and you do get on with an airline in the future be it union or non remember this. Do not ever allow yourself to make the mistake of identifying yourself with your user-name here on this forum. The airline industry is a very, very small place and by the most part has a very good memory. Your comments, while as you say are appropriate on a public forum and to that I agree, have no merit since you are not in the industry to begin with. You say your a stockholder and that gives you the right to comment, well then so be it! If US is unfortunate enough to declare chapter 11 again here is the one and only good thing that will come out of it...

Bye Bye Money invested by UAL747DEN, you were dumb enought to invest in an airline and you got what you asked for!!
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 7:39 am

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:23 pm

>>Wrong, LLC's aka the Wal-Mart offer lower prices because they have someone to undercut with prices. Again a point that was offered before you chose not to respond to this is the same with US and SWA. US goes under and leaves SWA the powerhouse out of PHL to FLA airports there goes the competition on those routes. Now granted you still have the other NY metros to contend with but SWA can still up their fairs and not worry about competition. The only reason you have LLC's is because there are the major network Carriers. They all disappear and the LLC's suddenly become the majors and pricing goes up.<<

Coa764:

All in all a pretty good post, I agreed with much of what you said.

Have to disagree with the quote above, though.

Could you, would you see some minor tweaking of fares in and out of PHL if WN was left the big dog? Sure, maybe a little.

Would it be similar to what you would see if it were the other way around? Not hardly.

The overall WN principle is to increase the demand for their product, not squeeze every penny they can out of a passenger.

In any number of monopoly markets that WN operates in this great country of ours we see a great deal of restraint by WN in setting fares.

When USAirways left BWI...over time you might have seen WN raise the price $2 here and $5 there....maybe not offer quite so many cheap advance purchase seats....but nothing grotesque.

If the fares in and out of PHL hadn't been grotesque you might not have ever seen them (WN) in there.

But I digress. Back to the topic at hand. USAirways is in financial trouble not because the employees make too much, but because the airline system assembled by their management is inefficient and cannot compete.

Yes, if the company goes to liquidation their employees will suffer.

Will they suffer more or less from a turbulent disruption of having to seek alternate employment, perhaps in a new industry, than they would by accepting sub-regional wage scales so that their management could continue to pillage? That's hard to say.

It looks like the day of reckoning has arrived. I guess my question is why, if the situation was so dire, did the company wait so long to start serious negotiations?
 
ScooterTrash
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 10:39 am

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:29 pm

XFSU:

Actually in the process of upgrading now... It's been a long time coming. Even if I had the 1000 PIC for FEDEX I am lacking the three lunar landings required for that job. Airtran? Maybe... Once again, a heck of a lot of competition for very few jobs.

Others?
ATA? Going down like U, most likely
Frontier? Had stuff in with them forever
Polar or Atlas? Maybe, but the wife might start getting busy with the mail man during my 20 day trips.
America West? Stuff is going in as we speak.
Jetblue? Lacking the time they want. Maybe I should be the "special friend" of a JB pilot so I can get Blue Darted in.
Southwest? No 737 type or lunar landings.

I think you will agree, it is a crummy time to be a pilot.

Scooter
 
A330323X
Posts: 2666
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:06 pm

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:48 pm

They went to the workers (union workers) and asked AND GOT concessions...TWICE. Folks that had been making $40k saw their pay, benefits and PENSIONS drop. Their pay in many cases has dropped to $18k a year. But management squandered all that and comes knocking for a third time.

Just to clarify something, certainly not to belittle the cuts taken by the employees, but no one who was making $40,000 had their pension touched in the last two rounds of concessions. The ALPA pension was the only pension that was changed. The AFA and IAM pensions were left completely alone. (The customer service agents' pension was frozen in 1992.)

As I understand the by-laws of USAirways' pilots unit...and I will admit my understanding is pretty limited...the union CAN NOT submit a management proposal to the rank and file for a vote. It has to be a TA.

Freshwater and Pollock got into a big argument over that, and the ALPA lawyers said that the MEC could indeed submit a management proposal to the rank-and-file for a vote, with or without a recommendation.

They must be doing something right.....the company has ponied up their 4th "last best offer."

US's latest offer is almost the same thing as its first offer. Smaller wage cuts with huge productivity improvements and workrule changes.

[Edited 2004-09-12 06:57:05]
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
Cody
Posts: 2172
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 12:16 pm

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:13 pm

Please don't think I am trying to be nasty, but I have a few thoughts. First off, management has to take a big share of the blame because first and foremost, they signed the labor contracts that are causing so much havoc. Also, I have a hard time blaming the employees for not taking round three of the paycut because they gave twice already only to see one of their leaders dress up like Austin Powers, parade up and down the concourses of DCA chanting "we've got our MoJo back" only to leave with a four million dollar parachute.

With that being said I have a few questions for labor.

*Why is it that every time we land at Pittsburgh, there is never a ground crew waiting on us? There are a few sitting around at some other gates, but heaven forbid they work a flight not in "their zone". Instead they just sit there and stare at us while we wait. The passengers see this too! They see it while they miss their connections. Why do we even bother calling in range? I thought that was done so that the ramp workers could be ready for us. Instead we wait and we have to call operations over and over after we arrive at the gate.

*Why is it that every single time I am in the A Concourse in PIT waiting for our aircraft to arrive I see it pull up to the gate and the gate agents keep chatting amongst themselves until after about ten minutes I have to go up and say, "Our airplane arrived ten minutes ago and we are taking it outbound. Could you please go down and pull the jetway up?" They always laugh and say, "oh we're sorry we didn't see it." Well I guess not, if they are all sitting around talking. Again why do we even bother calling in range?

*Why does mainline require mechanics to conduct push back operations at the hubs?

*Why is it a mechanic at an outstation cannot marshall us to the gate, but he can stand there and stare at us for ten minutes until the ground crew arrives. When they pull the jetway up, that mechanic that stared at us for ten minutes comes on board and asks for the USA TODAY because he is bored sitting around.

*Why is it that nine times out of ten, gate agents do not arrive at the gate until twenty minutes prior to departure? This happens when there is no other USAir aircraft in sight, so they are not working another flight.

*Why is it that last week, three baggage handlers stood side-by-side while the passengers boarded and put their carry on bags in the outside bin? Why did they not have one stand by the bin directing the passengers, another taking the carry-ons back to the baggage compartment, and the third in the baggage compartment loading the bags? Instead, three perfectly capable men stood there side by side until all the bags were left plane side. Then all three walked the bags over and loaded them after all the passengers were on board. This made us late! This made passengers miss connections!

Again, not trying to be hard on anyone, but these are serious issues! PRODUCTIVITY!!!!! If anyone can answer these questions I'd be very glad to know. If anyone reading this is an offender, please remind yourself that customers can always leave and go elsewhere and you may be the only saving grace. PAY ATTENTION!!!!! That's what you get paid to do.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:00 pm

I completely agree, however the employees are in charge of the unions. If you do not like what the unions are doing stand up against them. Overthrow them, this is the last chance you have to fight for your job or take what the union gives you.

This is exactly what the WN A&P mechanics/cleaners did with the Teamsters and then voted in AMFA and got a contract quicker than the Teamsters ever could.

so please do not assume that corporations will take advantage of their employees just because there isn't a union present.

Thats exactly what HP had before the CSR workgroup voted in a union. HP treated their CSR workgroup very well, but its beyond me why the workgroup wanted a union anyway, but this is for a different thread.

US and the unions better get off their tails and start working together if they want an airline beyond 2005...its up to them. Some people over there at US dont give a rats ass including the unions. The ball is in their court, not the paying pax. Do something before its too late....on the other hand...it IS too late.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:50 pm

Hey scooter, what is a lunar landing (I don't mean the Neil Armstrong kind)?

Ok, so people are talking about US and how the pilots should keep giving more and more, and how unions are so bad. Ok, here is something you should all know.

If US is asking 18 year pilots on A32S/737s to take 58,000 in base pay, they will be making less than at non-union B6 pilots on E190s.
A WN captain would be making almost (maybe more than) 3 times as much as a US captain.

How the hell can you tell a union, or a non-union employee, to accept something like this? Honestly, these are people who have worked hard and earned the lifestyle they lead. They should fight to keep what they have. They already have 2.5 billion in cuts to the airline, and US still could not get out from under this crap. The worst thing is that there is not really an excess of capacity in the US today, as shown by load factors, and you can get by charging cheap fares (ask WN, B6, F9 and FL). And why are unions at fault? Sure, there have been times where unions have been greedy (normally management) but, by and large, these unions have saved their airlines by buying them out (UA, TW) or giving cuts (AA, CO). Meanwhile, those horrible union employees at WN keep hammering out contracts. What really needs to happen is to have management work WITH the employees, union or not (B6 works a lot with their people, that is why they see no need to unionize). If you watch Airline, you know that Herb was at the retirement party for the head of WN's pilots union and they had nothing but good words to share. That is why they keep doing what they are doing, both for passengers and their people. That is what the "legacy of abuse" carriers should be doing, if they want to survive.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ual747den
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 5:47 pm

COA764,
Im not worried about what you think. You must live in some imaginary world if you think that you are so respected in the industry that you could have me "black balled!" You are a flight dispatcher, not a high level executive! Not that I feel that I need to prove anything to you but my family has a very long past in the industry's executive offices. No one that posts their opinion on here will have any kind of reprimands, this is a place for people to post opinions, not a company site.

Now it looks like this topic is pretty much split down the middle so there is not much more to say about it. The unions did not give any additional concessions and now they are about to close the doors. When the day comes that a message goes out and tells employees to go home and orders all aircraft to land and lock up I think that everyone will see my point....
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
jonesy869
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:44 pm

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 10:36 pm

Well Ual747Den...pretty heartless comment probably not knowing anything about this situation...and if u work for ua...good luck ...not sure u are going to survive!...being a 15 year pilot with us and on the street for the past 1 1/2 years and had lost almost all my pension given to us (by threat I might add) to survive plus had taken a 40% paycut before I left...and ceo's leaving here with 35 mil, 23 mil , 10 mil and had made the airline worse..and the only offer to me is go fly 50% more, relocate to the north and work for 1/3 of what i was making with 2 times the responsibility at a commuter?luckily I do not have to whore myself right now to survive (No family or wife)..so majority of the blame goes to management..also some excellent comments made about productivity and unions...necessary to a certain extent...most of all for safety, but when unions with skilled labor pile on non skilled labor to have power in negotiations and double their wages for what they really do is absurd....so some non skilled labor positions being paid 2 or 3 times what it should...and most of them sucked at it...if u are not a pilot, u will NEVER understand what it takes to do this job...the fundamental problem is not wages now after we all have given alot to us, ...the public wants to go everywhere for a hundred bucks...I am not sure that any of the big carriers can ever adapt to compete with a sw or jb (Im not sure they are going to be around in 5 years)...The pilots at us have made sacrifices way beyond what almost all employees in any company would have done....we have given up over 50% of our wages...almost 95% of our retirement for most, and changed the workrules over the past 10 years to allow this company to operate with 40% less pilots for any given number of a/c in the fleet....Does that sound like a union crippling its Company to attempt to make profits?...to be honest...i luv flying, but I would rather be an agent or d pushbacks for 35k than a pilot for 45k
 
AA717driver
Posts: 1502
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:27 am

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:11 am

UAL747 showed one of the problems with the industry. He comes from a long line of management and has ABSOLUTELY no experience doing the jobs his family has overseen for years. The "management class" in U.S. business has this air of infallibility about them. It's always labor's fault. We all know there are many reasons for the failure of a company--rarely are they centered on the rank and file employees.

So please continue deluding yourself as you climb the management ladder throughout your career. One day you will get that coveted golden parachute, maybe gettin to use it, comfortable in the knowledge you did all you could do but labor just wouldn't cooperate... Insane TC
FL450, M.85
 
supa7E7
Posts: 1360
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:05 am

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:24 am

Milesrich

"Management at airlines have used labor wars to pit one group of employees against the other."

Yes, it's called America!
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:28 am

This is exactly what the WN A&P mechanics/cleaners did with the Teamsters and then voted in AMFA and got a contract quicker than the Teamsters ever could.

Minor correction. The Teamster's got the LUV mechanics a contract, and then they were voted out.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?

Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:25 pm

Minor correction. The Teamster's got the LUV mechanics a contract, and then they were voted out.

This is something I didnt know. Question: The Teamsters got the WN mechanics a contract and then voted them out, did/does that mean that the mechanics had to re-do their contract (To a new contract sponsered by AMFA and voided out the Teamsters contract at the same time..) when they voted in AMFA or did they still have to abide by the Teamsters contract regardless of who is representing them now? Did that question make any sense?
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.