Arcano
Topic Author
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:55 am

HI!

As it's starting to get usual when it comes to Marsans, one more time their announcements have been delayed.

This time is Aerolineas del Sur, their operation within the domestic and international market of Chile. Their opening was intended for July, when they launched the project in March. In June, they said that the airline would start in September.

Now, the two institutions that allow an airline to operate in Chile: DGAC (technique issues), and JAC (aeronautics regulation) have informed that AdS are not ready to start. Marsans hasn't presented the insurance nor hasn't approved they procedures. JAC will have a general meeting on Sept. 23, but AdS is not in the plans. But, SKY Airlines (H2) has presented a complaint for banning Marsans.

Chilean regulation allows any foreign to set an airline in the country, owning 100% of the business. But, if a foreign airline wants to fly domestic, the origin country has to sign reciprocity with Chile. SKY claims that AdS is a foreign airlines disguised as Chilean airline, in this case it will be AR in Chile, so Argentina should open the skies for LA and H2, since all the directions for AdS will be decided in Buenos Aires, not in Santiago.

The owner of H2 has declared "we don't fear competition within Chile, but we disagree that a foreign company as Aerolineas Argentinas disguises itself as Chilean company, because it's not. Besides, AR has government dumping, as no airline in Chile".

LAN has declare that they are open and willing for free competition; they just regret Argentina is not.

My opinion? foreign or local... the more airlines we have, the best we are. Although I think Argentina is not playing fair, it's not a reason for us to be closed and, at the end, lose the benefits of more options. We'll see.

Regards )( Arcano
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:11 am

What a/c and route will Aerolíneas del Sur will fly?

PD:Hmm Arcano this has nothing to do with this topic... but I was wondering about your signature. Wasnt Chile fully independent after 1826 when the last spanish soldier left the country? I think declaration is one thing, totally different from true independence
 
Arcano
Topic Author
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:26 am

Hola Luis:

AdS will start with some 732s flying to Iquique, Antofagasta, Puerto Montt and Punta Arenas.
They will fly internationally with a 742 to EZE, JFK, MAD and MIA.

As for the independence, I alredy explained in "south america busiest route", but here it goes: Chile became fully independent in 1810. The whole process lasted for 8 years (1810-1818), but for us, what matters (with first national congress, flag, army, etc) was 1810. We faced a 2 years reconquista, but for us this was just a part of the process. Many countries have been ocupied during their history (Chile, Peru, Panama, Afghanistan, Irak, etc), but you don't say they lost their independence. We started to manage ourselves in 1810, me sigues?

Regards
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:56 am

Thanks for the info Arcano. Got another question, the SCL-EZE on the 742 will continue to MAD, JFK or MIA?

About the independence thing... here in Venezuela we expelled Caracas's spanish governor on April 19th 1810 and the blancos criollos took over the Cabildo, but we only remember that date as the "first shout of independence". Then we got 2 national holidays... July 5th 1811 (Declaration of independence) and June 24th 1821 (Carabobo Battle, where the last spanish troops were defeated). The latter one being the date when we were completely independent.  Smile
 
Arcano
Topic Author
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:36 am

Luis:

They've actually hasn't set properly the routes, so I don't know it they will stop in EZE for the abroad destination. I think EZE will be served with the idle capacity of the large aircraft, so I don't think EZE will be a stop.
Besides, as Chilean company they won't have rights.
_____________________________
Independence again: our last battle was in 1818. Not even a holiday for us, and many people forgot the date. There is no need that the independent process vision of Chile, Venezuela, Argentina or USA matches to each other. Each country is free to decide how, what or when they want to celebrate and feel independent. Maybe Venezuela doesn't feel they were independent in 1810 so you celebrate 1821. We know we bacame independent in 1810 as a fully formed republic with 3 branches (Government, Congress and Justice), with an invation in 1814 (reconquista), the end of the "Patria Vieja" period. Although the Patria vieja flag of ours does't look like our current at all. The current one is our third national flag:


Flag and coat of arms of the patria vieja



Transition Flag 1817



Current flag (1817) and coat of arms



Regards )(

[Edited 2004-09-11 21:38:44]
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
Derico
Posts: 4209
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:19 am

I'm starting to wonder why Marsans isn't really 'pushing' for this as loudly as he could...

It could be because he really does see that there is a significant degree of hypocracy in the whole thing. I was told that there could be another reason: the argentine domestic market may expand rather significantly in the summer of 2004-2005, at least the summer travel season could be historically good. And if macroeconomic conditions continue well, 2005-2006 could see continued fast growth, specially if the recovery in salaries continues.

So in the end, maybe he will need the planes he earmarked for Chile back home and wouldn't be that uspet if he can't set up an airline in Chile right away.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
LH526
Crew
Posts: 1960
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2000 2:23 am

RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

Sun Sep 12, 2004 8:14 am

Yes, Arcano, and not very long till the dieciocho ... I'm proud of my second home country ... I'm half chilean!!!

I saw it coming, the plans sounded to god to be brought to reality in that short of time, and it was clear to me that there will be certain issues with the DGAC and the JAC, funny that there are always problems occuring with foreign airlines (like earlier with Aerocontinente, ...)

Let's hope the airline makes it into the air, however I doubt it will survive or at least make it during the critical 8 month period judging that special "friendship" argentinos and chilenos share  Smile/happy/getting dizzy (Every chilean knows what I talk about ... this sort of "love-hate" relationship)

I guess many chileans will avoid flying AdS as soon as they get aware that they fly a Argentinian airline, the prices won't drop much more (LAN's offers really are a bargain sometimes and SkyAirline with their very old fashioned fare system often struggles to compete with these fares on some sectors, but nevertheles they own a ~30% in chileans domestic market)

Mario
LH526
Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
 
Arcano
Topic Author
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

Sun Sep 12, 2004 8:37 am

Mario: no Chilean avoided N6 even knowind they were peruvian. No Chilean avoids Havanna cafes knowing they are Argentine. No Chilean avoids Arcor chocolates knowing they are Argentine.
N6 got up to 20% share while they lasted. It seems your "german half" (  Big grin )is not very aware that we might have some issues about our bordering countries, but when it comes for comsumption, we are very wise buyers and we love fair fares and good service. If AdS provides that there would be no "friendship" issues. Maybe some idiot will avoid them for that, but it won't be the rule. We must be one of the countries that care less for flags when buying, but we are very demanding.
None of the local competitors of Home Depot, Sears nor Carrefour had to claim "chose us because we are Chileans ans they are not"... but they failed to their lack of knowledge of the Chilean consumer. Nobody remember the flags or boycotted them because they were foreigners. We are smarter than that. I'm sure if N6 wouldn't be criminaly managed, they would be a very important player know. Remember when they were banned, our authorities even talked to LB for serving our market and avoid LA's monopoly, which finally wasn't necessary due to Sky fast takeoff.

As a friend of mine told me, in Punta Arenas they are praying for AR to land soon there. I don't say it won't happen, I say It won't be massive.

Since you are half Chilean I cannot wish you a happy 18... just a happy 9!!!!

Saludos de tu medio compatriota!
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
Derico
Posts: 4209
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

Sun Sep 12, 2004 10:08 am

What? There are Havanna Cafes in Chile?? Well, no wonder Starbucks is steering clear South America.  Wink/being sarcastic
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:31 pm

Hola todos!

A new topic on an old subject.

It's VERY simple. Marsans suffer from a chronic inability to see their plans through. 90% of their grandiose plans announced since 2002 have quite literally evaporated into thin air, or become "flans". The Asian routes have yet to launch. None of the regional subsidiaries are up and running, and only one of the proposed four is remotely close. Pluna is off. The Cargo conversions to the retired 737s and 747 seem to have been scrapped, and Executive Jet conversions are on hold. The oldest 737s have been retained. All they've succeeded is doing is the following:

  • Posting 2 consecutive years of profits (going on for 3, at this rate), solely due to a change of management which effectively forgave AR their staggering debt from the SEPI years (1991-2001).

  • Resuming direct services to BOG, and indirect services to CDG, LGW, MXP.

  • Adding 3 aircraft to the fleet (an A310, a B747-400, an MD-83), a small fraction out of the dozens of aircraft they planned to incorporate. Deliveries of additional B747-400s and MD-83s have slipped several months, while older orders such as for the A340-600 appear to have been shelved or potponed indefinitely.

  • Making AR totally self-sufficient in maintenance, upon receiving authorization from Boeing and Airbus to carry out D-Checks on the 747 and A340.

  • Repainting the entire fleet, and fusing (not merging AU with AR).


  • Meanwhile, two 747s were "borrowed" by parent company Air Plus Comet, who have also made good use of AR's MD-88 based in Europe, presumably to make up for their own shortfalls.

    What I sense is that AR, with the profits it is reaping in, is in a position to be flying to most of the promised routes and could even be seeking younger planes. During the SEPI years, when IB flogged their old DC-9s to AU for extortionate prices, AU was in a position to secure a far better deal, but the Spanish management prevented this so that IB would gain the most from AU's purchase.

    It's not because I am Argentine that I have developed a suspicion towards Spanish companies such as Grupo Marsans (which is basically a large tourism agency and a 2nd-rate airline), because in continuity from the SEPI years, a high level of unreliability, shiftiness and procrastination remain.
    As a Spanish company, they've succeeded in making AR economically viable (for now), but have equally proven hopeless at keeping promises or sticking to their word. Perhaps the Grupo Marsans is really in deep trouble and is trying to hide it? I mean what's causing all the delays? If money is not the problem, then what is?

    To all of you, may I recommend you take every Marsans "announcement" as BS until proven otherwise. Don't get your hopes up until you see prima facie evidence (and independent corroboration thereof) to back up their claims. If you expect nothing, you may one day be pleasantly surprised. Raise your hopes for AR any higher and you will most likely be disappointed...

    Thankfully, there is more to Argentina than the sad story of its aviation. Enjoy the alfajores, enjoy the beer, enjoy the sun and enjoy the girls. Cuidanse.

    Saludos,

    ZXV

    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    Arcano
    Topic Author
    Posts: 2299
    Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:44 am

    ZXV: Indeed, I think we share a lot of the vision we have about Marsans, or at least that is what I think everytime I read in these forums any AR big announcement.
    But I do think AdS will see the light, or so has swore some executives of Aerolineas Argentinas in Chile I've met.

    Derico: why aren't them pushing harder? million dollars question. I'm not sure if you are right about the aircrafts they need, I think they have already selected the 732s they'll use here, after all those aircraft must be in registration processn already.

    And Havanna? yes! they started exporting alfajores, and now they have several cafes in many malls, I think they have even more cafes here than Starbucks does. IMO, Havanna should do it better here than St; their business model is more "latino".

    )(
    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
    Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:04 pm

    Arcano:

    While I'm a little more optimistic about Marsans than I was about SEPI (with reason), I do have a fairly cynical outlook on their track-record, as I'm sure they could be doing a much better job for AR.

    The first two aircraft due for AdS are:

    Austral's B737-200Adv. LV-ZTE (1985-build)
    Air Plus Comet's B747-200B EC-IPN (1980-build)

    ...or at least provisionally.

    Saludos,

    ZXV

    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    debonair
    Posts: 2707
    Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:50 pm

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:41 am


    !Hola amigos!

    any web-page of Aerolineas del Sur yet available??

    muchas gracias chris
     
    Arcano
    Topic Author
    Posts: 2299
    Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:42 am

    ZXV: Are you sure about that fleet? a single 732 would be a very bad idea for start; even Avant, National, Aerocontinente Chile and Sky started with 2 or 3 732s...
    With a single one they would have to flight the northern routes in the morning, and the southern routes in the afternoon (or viceversa), which would give them a very tight schedule and a real head ache in case of an emergency (from tires to engines).
    Besides, why would they need immediatly a 742 if they don't plan to fly abroad from the start?

    Debonair: not yet. They hasn't even registred the obvious one: www.aerolineasdelsur.cl (remember in Chile we don't use ".com" in our sites, just ".cl"). Maybe is a good idea to register it and later make some money by selling it to them!  Laugh out loud

    Regards )(
    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
     
    TBCITDG
    Posts: 851
    Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:52 am

    I totally agree with everyone regarding Marsans and their "plans". I really do not understand what an airline has to do with opening hotels throughout Argentina, but this is yet another "scheme by the Spanish investors". (I still prefer them over IB)
    As for reciprocal rights, Isn't AR del sur a "sister" company of Aerolineas and not a sub?" Shouldn't the issue be with Spain and not Argentina since the parent company is Marsans/ Air Comet and not Aerolineas Argentinas (irrespective of the name and the close ties??

    PS: The second 744 for Aerolineas has been delivered and is at the hangars in EZE!!!! Another positive news!
     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
    Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:47 pm

    Arcano:

    AR may acquire a couple of "new" 737-200s for their Chilean operation, as sacrificing a few of their own with spring and high season on its way probably wouldn't be the most judicious decision, especially since the 737-500s are not due till November at the earliest and by years' end, two 737-200s will have to be permanently retired (LV-JND & -LEB, most likely). And so long as the "new" 737-200s wear CC-regs, they won't be breaking any laws.
    However, I think the plan was always to start the international flights in Chile at almost the same time as the domestic, hence the 747-200 would arrive very shortly after the 737(s). In addition, Air Plus Comet will have over-capacity as of say next month, as the European summer winds down and the airline will probably only need only one 747 (EC-IZL) to meet winter demand. Just speculating, but the reason AR's LV-OOZ left the fleet to join Air Plus was to replace EC-IPN for when it was transferred to AdS.

    ....TDG:

    Marsans is trying hard (an oxymoron?!) to create AdS as a Spanish company, but inevitably, Argentine greed will form part of the equation and yes it's possible that it will become an Argentine venture in a Spanish outfit instead of the other way round. Whatever the cordiality between Argentina and Chile, the transandean rivalry will continue to exist for many years to come. The rivalry isn't all bad, but just as it exists between many if not most countries in the world, so too will it between Argentina and Chile.
    As for the reciprocity of the relationship, well there we can only wait and see, but from a business perspective both AR and LAN undoubtedly want to have their cakes and eat them, although again, where is the surprise there?

    Saludos,

    ZXV

    P.S. Re the 2nd 747-400 for AR: BETTER LATE THAN NEVER!!!

    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    Arcano
    Topic Author
    Posts: 2299
    Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:27 am

    XV and TDG:

    This is exactly the poinu in Sky's complaint: legally there will be nothing to say about them since they are becoming a Chilean company runned from Argentina (with Spain HQ). The issue is that this would be a disguise for avoiding reciprocity. That's the whole point in Sky statement. I think they are right, but better more airlines than just one.

    And again, I don't see the so called rivalry has anything to do in this play.

    BTW: Cerrillos closure is still a subject here... everyday you hear change of plans in Nubasa and Cerirllos fates. The last verison is that the State will build another runway, but apparently for FACH only...

    )(
    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
     
    luisde8cd
    Posts: 2444
    Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:36 am

    The last verison is that the State will build another runway, but apparently for FACH only...

    Would that new runway be used for the new upcoming F-16s? Do you know where they are planning on basing them?
     
    Arcano
    Topic Author
    Posts: 2299
    Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:29 am

    Got me on that!
    There are many Air Force fields in all our territory where those probably would be landed.

    September 19th is our Armed Forces day, and we have a big parade. I think most of FACH aircraft displayes takeoff from El Bosque (where the Air Force Academy is) and Cerrillos and Pudahuel (as the 707 tankers. Remember that FACH has their own facilities in SCL, so called "Grupo 10").

    See the photo... Grupo 10 is the place you see at the right... the one conected to the runway by a diagonal. The second runway is currently in construction in the bareland you see parallel to the current one (also right side of the photo, not the green field).

    View Large View Medium
    Click here for bigger photo!

    Photo © Alejandro Ruiz Yañez



    )(
    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
     
    luisde8cd
    Posts: 2444
    Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:52 am

    Arcano,

    If I were Chilean and had to decide where to base the F-16s, I would base them up north where Bolivia is in their range. I really doubt they will base them in SCL, from that picture I can tell the military ramp is very small. Also those fighters are way too noisy to be based near a metro area like Santiago. Here in Venezuela they are based in Maracay, which is a medium-size city about 100km west of Caracas. Do you know when the FACH is getting them?

    PD: Welcome to the F-16 club  Smile
     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
    Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:55 pm

    Luisde8cd:

    A bit off-topic, but to answer you questions:

  • I think basing the F-16s near the Bolivian frontier would be a pointless exercise, since the only jet-powered combat aircraft in the FAB are AT-33s, of which 17 were recently upgraded in Canada (not all have returned, and not all are in service) with new avionics and glass cockpits. Bolivia has shown interest in A-4 Skyhawks (which would be upgraded to Argentine standard) and Argentina's latest version of the Pampa, the AT-63, which is now in production at the LMAASA plant in Córdoba, but being South America's poorest country, I doubt that military procurements take any precident in Bolivia's annual Budget.
    If Bolivia were ever to regain sovereignty of northern Chile, which politically and deomgraphically would be extremely messy and controversial, like Argentina over the Malvinas, diplomacy would be their only available option.


  • The dozen-or-so F-16s (including trainers) are -C and -D Block 50 variants, due for delivery as of next year, if I remember correctly. Late in the deal the FACH requested the inclusion of the long-range AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missile, which was denied at first but then, when it was pointed out that the Peruvians already had the Russian ultra-long range (but ultra-temperamental) R-77 Adder, the US Government eventually approved the sale, to "balance the power".


  • I must say though, two things I fail to understand are why on earth Chile wants the latest F-16s PLUS AMRAAMs. None of their neighbours would dare engage in air-to-air combat with the FACH even now, least of all Argentina, and Peru is all show and no go. It's true that the FACH's Mirage Elkan/Pantera fleet has only so many years left, but surely the FACH could have opted for a more economical and less deadly package, especially if Chile is ever to truly befriend her neighbours.

    Now apologies for straying off-topic, but I believe questions need answering!

    Saludos,

    ZXV



    [Edited 2004-09-15 14:57:11]
    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    luisde8cd
    Posts: 2444
    Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:22 am

    Hey guys just started a new thread in the Military Aviation forum regarding the F-16s. Lets take the conversation there Smile

    http://www.airliners.net/discussions/military/read.main/23624/
     
    Derico
    Posts: 4209
    Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:59 am

    Quote by LVZXV #15

    "AR may acquire a couple of "new" 737-200s for their Chilean operation, as sacrificing a few of their own with spring and high season on its way probably wouldn't be the most judicious decision,"



    Exactly. What I said about Marsans pulling AdS slotted planes for domestic operations whas a wild shot, but I do still think what I said that he is not in any rush with AdS, because the upcomming summer season will keep them busy.

    To be honest, I'm starting to change my mind about all this 'airline propping' shananigans going on in the government. I think it's about time the powers that be stop killing somewhat reasonable airlines just to grandstand (LAPA), and keep on life support the ones that have no shot. And allow Lan into Argentina, and any other foreign company. The only thing I would stipulate is that they agree to commit themselves to long-term investment and job development within Argentina. Chile does something like that with capital flows.

    Quote by LVZXV #20

    "I must say though, two things I fail to understand are why on earth Chile wants the latest F-16s PLUS AMRAAMs. None of their neighbours would dare engage in air-to-air combat with the FACH even now, least of all Argentina, and Peru is all show and no go"



    Why the heck not?
    [edit: I meant, Why the heck not Chile shoudn't modernize it's military)

    If I read you correctly now, It's absolutely pathetic that Argentina's Air Force now has less firepower than Peru's or Bolivia's, and certainly less than Chile, Brazil, Colombia or Venezuela. That's absolutely embarrassing. The government should be completely ashamed.

    No matter what everyone else believes, I think Argentina's 30 year skid started and parallels almost exacty the time when it stopped investing in technologies and weapons. I'm certainly not saying that was the cause of all ills, but I do believe that techonology spurs growth, and Argentina abandoned that.



    [Edited 2004-09-15 22:07:31]
    My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
     
    Arcano
    Topic Author
    Posts: 2299
    Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:23 am

    Derico: Thanks God Argentina is no in the need of more updated fighting fleet... nor Chile is. Remember this has being an issue here.
    It's good to hear Argentina don't look us (or Brazil) as a terrible threat to be hold.

    We all know FACH has many "secret" bases to land their fighters... Atacama is a laaarage place to hide them. But I think we are acting for an alert, to even think in a war is ridiculous. But the "strongest"  Insane argument I think is Peru and its military power, maybe the only -veeeeeeeeeeery remote- chance of a serious conflict for Chile.
    Atacama has always been a strategic issue for us, specially after all the territory we lost in Argentina (fairly for them, I might add).


    If Bolivia were ever to regain sovereignty of northern Chile, which politically and deomgraphically would be extremely messy and controversial, like Argentina over the Malvinas, diplomacy would be their only available option
    ZXV: Bolivia, Peru, Chile, Brazil or Ecuador have no sovereignty to regain, and there is absolutetly no comparison with Argentina/Malvinas... por favor!
    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
    Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:04 pm

    With all the forecasts for a record-breaking temporada this (austral) summer, it's quite possible AR wants as many planes as possible at its disposition. If all goes according to plan (which it won't), the operational fleet of AR and AU should resemble this by December:

    2 x A310-300(ET) (6Y-JAE due 10/04)
    4 x A340-200X
    30 x B737-200Adv.
    4 x B737-500 (F-GJNY, F-GJNI, N952UA, N954UA due 11/04-12/04)
    4 x B747-200B
    3 x B747-400 (C-GMWW due 11/04)
    1 x F28-1000 (LV-WZC due 09/04)
    2 x MD-81
    5 x MD-83 (N824NK due 10/04)
    5 x MD-88

    TOTAL: 60 aircraft

    Re: The Military:

    Some good has come out of Argentina's military downsizing, such as warmer military relations with Brazil (esp. sharing of the carrier) and Uruguay. Additionally, the Royal and Argentine Navies took part in various exercises in the late '90s (sadly a thing of the past with K's aggressive rhetoric).
    But bear in mind that Argentina's military decay was born out of a fundamentally different reason to that of its neighbours: the fact it lost a major war. Few Argentines trust the military anymore, and understandably so. Now, to keep things in perspective, it's debateable as to whether Argentina's military has less firepower than Bolivia or Colombia. For one thing, they have more than Mexico, and for another, what's fire-power in a continent that has consigned most of its border/territorial disputes to the past? With the Cold War over, and the drugs and terror wars utterly farcical, high tech aircraft in relatively poor countries tend to symbolise corruption, more than anything.

    Derico:

    That's absolutely embarrassing. The government should be completely ashamed.

    I agree, Argentina has been hampered by a degree of technophobia these past 30 years. But don't you think that Argentina's governments (past and present) have committed far worse crimes than stunting military development? And since when did the Argentine government show any sign of remorse?

    Arcano:

    What I'm saying is that no South American country will ever recuperate any slither of land/island(s) they claim as theirs' through any means besides diplomacy. Oh and by the way, much as this is of no concern to you or me, all the countries you mention are in some way involved in sovereignty issues with one another, although admittedly, the land at stake and the fuss caused is negligible in most cases.
    All Chile should fear is Argentina's formidable "virtual" Air Force, made up of all the planned acquisitions of the '90s, such as 24 F-16s and 24 F/A-18s...  Big grin

    Saludos,

    ZXV

    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    luisde8cd
    Posts: 2444
    Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:36 pm

    high tech aircraft in relatively poor countries tend to symbolise corruption, more than anything.

    Not exactly... here they've done their work. For example, during the late 80s a Colombian Navy frigate entered Venezuelan territorial waters in the Golfo de Venezuela. We sent some frigates to scare them away, didn't work. They insisted they were in Colombian waters. I believe the Colombian frigate was named Almirante Padilla (I'm not really sure if this is true) and it was new or recently upgraded, so they thought they could beat anyone. Well the Venezuelan Navy high command wanted to sink Almirante Padilla (this could've started a war) but a less-radical group of generals suggested that a low F-16 flyby could scare them away. So a group of fully armed F-16s took off from El Libertador AB and were sent to the Golf. After a couple of fly-bys showing their underwing weapons, Almirante Padilla's captain turned the ship 180 degrees and sailed back to Colombia.

    Our F-16s did their work and probably avoided a war between Colombia and Venezuela.

    PD: I would love to hear the Colombian-side of this story, just to know what you guys are being told on the other side of the border  Smile
     
    Derico
    Posts: 4209
    Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:21 am

    The fact that we are comparing the AF's of Argentina and Bolivia is all the proof one needs! Fact is, simply by the size, population, & GDP comparisons ALONE the ARG military should have a better establishement, just due to overall $$ appropriations. No excuses exist for the current situation. It's true that Argentina's military was blown dead in the public after the war, like the US military after Vietnam. US public's confidence in their army wasn't restored until the invasion of mighty Grenada... but it did the trick in shoring confidence.

    The cozing up to Brasilia is just another show that Argentina sold out to them (you yourself just said the relations are now 'warmer' because Argentina downsized, did Brazil??). Economically I've known this since Mercosur's inception, and now Argentina is subordinate to them politically and militarily too. I believe in warm relations with all nations specially our neighbors, I don't believe in warm relations based on the perception that we can't stand up for ourselves (which is all that this 'let's ask Brazil if it's OK' diplomacy has been really about for 10 years now). To this day I remain stunned that the average Porteño doesn't care about that.

    Quote by LVZXV #24:

    "...Argentina's governments (past and present) have committed far worse crimes than stunting military development?..."



    Sure they have, I wasn't comparing apples and oranges, I was just talking about the oranges, tech and military. I'm not a gun freak by any means, I wouldn't care for military developments as long as we invested in technology! (which back then went hand in had with military anywhere in the world)

    That said, (ola Arcano), I for one wouldn't fear Chile of Brazil even if they somehow acquired F-22s! By the same token that doesn't mean we should be armed with high school spitballs! Chile and Brazil are updating, and even if they weren't I think we should. AND NOT for a juvenile diplomatic tit-for-tat ellos lo hacen nosotros entonces también, just for the normal course of things.


    Quote by LVZXV #24:

    "... If all goes according to plan (which it won't), the operational fleet of AR and AU should resemble this by December:

    2 x A310-300(ET) (6Y-JAE due 10/04)
    4 x A340-200X
    30 x B737-200Adv.
    4 x B737-500 (F-GJNY, F-GJNI, N952UA, N954UA due 11/04-12/04)
    4 x B747-200B
    3 x B747-400 (C-GMWW due 11/04)
    1 x F28-1000 (LV-WZC due 09/04)
    2 x MD-81
    5 x MD-83 (N824NK due 10/04)
    5 x MD-88..."




    What's not going to go to plan, LVZXV??
    My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
    Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:11 am

    Military as hell but oh well...

    Good anecdote, Luis, but I think that example of restraint was particularly rare and it is fortunate just as well that the Alte. Padilla didn't open fire on the F-16s. And the only reason Venezuela succeeded in acquiring what was essentially an embargoed product in Latin America at the time was the Reagan administration's greater concern about the arms build-up in Cuba than the sale of two-dozen F-16s to oil-rich Venezuela.

    Derico:

    The fact that we are comparing the AF's of Argentina and Bolivia is all the proof one needs! Fact is, simply by the size, population, & GDP comparisons ALONE the ARG military should have a better establishement, just due to overall $$ appropriations. No excuses exist for the current situation.

    What about New Zealand? Or Ireland? Or Austria? There isn't always a correlation between a high GDP and a strong military. And there's no reason why there should be. Not every country feels "threatened" and across the First World (even NATO), defence budgets are being slashed.
    Once again, there is no excuse for lots of things in Argentina, like the poverty in a nation that could fed itseld three times over, but the blame for the status quo can be attributed to as many people as you want it to be and really it doesn't alter the realities in the slightest.

    The cozing up to Brasilia is just another show that Argentina sold out to them (you yourself just said the relations are now 'warmer' because Argentina downsized, did Brazil??). Economically I've known this since Mercosur's inception, and now Argentina is subordinate to them politically and militarily too. I believe in warm relations with all nations specially our neighbors, I don't believe in warm relations based on the perception that we can't stand up for ourselves (which is all that this 'let's ask Brazil if it's OK' diplomacy has been really about for 10 years now). To this day I remain stunned that the average Porteño doesn't care about that.

    There is a lot of room for debate about Mercosur but I think it should be left aside for now. Your point about Argentine-Brazilian military relations is not entirely true. It is courtesy of Argentina that the Brazilian Navy can deploy fighter aircraft at sea, since part of the deal in allowing Argentina to share the "NAe. Sao Paolo" is that the Argentines help train the Brazilian Skyhawk pilots for carrier operations.
    And whoever gets the upper hand in the alliance, it is ultimately an impressive show of fraternity betweem the two historic rivals that they can form a joint air wing on the same carrier. The Argentine Super pilots benefit too from maintaining their carrier qualifications, in so doing justifying the retention of fixed-wing aircraft in the Argentine Navy.
    You've got to ask yourself the security threats faced in each country: Brazil has a need for a large COIN force (enter the AMX and Super Tucano), while Argentina's needs would be amply satisfied by the acquisition of more utlity and SAR helicopters for all the forces, transports for the Air Force and Army, and jet trainers for the Air Force and Navy. The need for combat aircraft has diminished somewhat.

    I too lament the pathetic state of the Argentine military (esp. that it took 21 years to complete their latest MEKO frigate, the "ARA Gómez Roca"), for if the equipment it still had was actually operational, it wouldn't be the laughing stock of South America. The Air Force and the Navy are still (on paper) one the strongest in the region, and their pilots, some of the best. But you know as well as I do that with the kleptocratic nature of the Argentine government, how is the military ever going to receive the necessary funds?

    Finally, when you ask what is not going to plan in AR's fleet revamp, just count the aircraft that arrive on time because thus far, both 747-400s have arrived late, so too will the third, and I wouldn't wager a fortune on the new 737s arriving before Christmas either. Maybe this time all will go according to plan, but judging from Marsans' track-record, I doubt it, don't you?

    Saludos,

    ZXV

    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    TBCITDG
    Posts: 851
    Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:45 am

    Seems that Arcano is not the only person who is happy about the competition coming to Chile. As stated in El Mercurio ACHET (Tourism Association) is quite happy about an "additional" airline operating in Chile.
    Unlike Sky who still claim that they should be allowed to operate domestic/international sectors within Argentina.
    But as written even by the Mercurio "por lo pronto, la linea aerea,filial del grupo Marsans de Espana"; go figure. Some think it is an Argentine enterprise, and some not.
     
    Derico
    Posts: 4209
    Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:50 am

    It's ironic that the kleptomaniac government, when it actually gets on the same page, it's to give our neighbor to the north seniority. I actually don't mind at all Brazil as the 'leader' of the region, that is absolutely common sense, as long as we are not like a little duck imprinting and nodding on everything they do. But the way I read Itamaraty is that they feel they have Argentina 'brasildependiente' (remember that one?)  Wink/being sarcastic

    I wouldn't be surprised by the ability of Marsans to shoot himself in the foot, but for whatever reason I think they will deploy most if not all their planes at least in time for the primera quincena, if not then what's the point of the exercise?

    Has there been any word on any new routes this summer? Saludos y Gracias por tu super-informes...

    My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
     
    luisde8cd
    Posts: 2444
    Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:11 am

    I believe the Colombian frigate was named Almirante Padilla (I'm not really sure if this is true)

    After a little research, I was wrong. I got confused with another Golfo de Venezuela incident with Colombia. Almirante Padilla fired at Los Monjes archipelago (venezuelan islands) just off the Colombian coast, in 1952. The frigate that got scared when they saw the F-16s was the Caldas. At the time the Caldas was brand new.

    [Edited 2004-09-17 00:34:55]
     
    TBCITDG
    Posts: 851
    Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:01 am

    New routes? Not that I have heard of any, apart from Zurich and Munich both via MAD.
    There has been talk once again from Marsans of opening a base in Barcelona which would be used by both Spanair and Aerolineas Argentinas. It has been announced that they are in talks with the Catalan government for such a facility and for the flights to Shanghai or Beijing.
     
    Arcano
    Topic Author
    Posts: 2299
    Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:10 am

    ACHET (Tourism Association) is quite happy about an "additional" airline operating in Chile

    TBC, a good point here! one of the announcements made by AdS (again, God knows if it's going to be true) is a higher commission per ticket sold to the agencies. After the big pressure LA has made to reduce these fees, I think the ACHET ("Tourism Companies Association of Chile") members are more than happy.
    And even more; since Chilean love to buy by direct credit, department stores as Falabella or Corte Ingles have grown a lot in tourism, hence becoming important players when it comes to marketshare among the airlines.

    This is how you see many 4 days travels to Buenos Aires flown by AC and AR: it's a department store behind...

    Regards )(
    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
    Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:39 pm

    Some of the new routes announced for 2004 (asides PEK and PVG):

    ATH (via MAD)

    - After the not-so-brilliant idea of creating a second European hub in Athens, the city will now be served by AR out of MAD, using the MD-88 or Air Plus Comet aircraft.

    BEY

    - No news.

    CAI

    - No news.

    DUS (via MAD)

    - Not sure about this one. Probably Air Plus Comet only.

    DXB

    - No news. A relatively recent announcement.

    IST

    - Cancelled.

    LAX (direct)

    - An A340 service, pendent on Argentina's return to CAT I status, subject to FAA approval.

    LGW (direct)

    - To have been with the 747-400 from October. Idea scrapped.

    MEX

    - Resumption of a service discontinued years ago, using the 2nd A310 (due 10/04). Tech. stop in ACA on return leg.

    NRT (via PEK)

    - A planned extension of the PEK service. Another abandoned idea.

    SJU

    - Once a week as of November. Will be served as EZE-SJU-MIA-SJU-EZE with an A340.

    SVO (via MAD)

    - Most likely a route to be served from MAD, but with a 747-400 as the distance may be a bit much for an MD-88. No nes on this route for some time now.

    TUN

    - No news.

    VIE

    - No news. Was to be served out of ATH initially, but may be served from MAD instead.

    BOG and MXP (via MAD) have been added, however, while MUC and ZRH are due to begin next month (via MAD). As you can see, Few of the routes above are being served yet, and many were cancelled. Don't ask me why TLV wasn't on the list of planned Middle Eastern destinations.

    Saludos,

    ZXV

    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    dcajet
    Posts: 643
    Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:10 am

    On a related note, AR's second B747-475 is in BUE-EZE. Reg # is LV-AXT. According to AR, two more are on the way... Seeing is believing... Pic can be seen on:

    http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=355549
    "Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
    Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:37 am

    Hola DCAjet:

    It was initially said to be -AXF...such have been the delays! Formerly C-FCRA with Canadian and later Air Canada, and in the picture wearing the temporary reg. N895NC. Leased from the Japanese Nissho Iwai Corporation (never heard of it!).
    747-400 #3 should be C-GMWW, originally due this month but now delayed until November. No idea which will be the 4th, but I doubt it will be Canadian as AC only had 3 in storage. Wouldn't surprise me it becomes a -200 or -300 instead...

    Saludos,

    ZXV

    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    Arcano
    Topic Author
    Posts: 2299
    Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:47 am

    Wouldn't surprise me it becomes a -200 or -300 instead...

    ... that would be too much, It would be like announcing: we'll fly to CUN and later flying to Vina del Mar only...

    In a sort of related news: LAN

    LAN owner Pinera became the larger stockholder of LAN, with almost 30%. This after purchasing from Cueto, the formet larger owner, about 2%.
    LA announced in July that the airline would sell 10% of the shares for giving more movement to the stock, but this week it was said that these operation was delayed till next year, since currently the aviation world scenario is very turbulent and probably the price wouldn't be the best, so they'll wait to next year if the situation improves. LAN stocks in Santiago had raised a lot during the last two weeks waiting for the sell..

    And Nubasa vs Cerrillos: nothing new yet!

    Regards from Chile. Tomorrow is our independence day so I have to go to celebrate now...

    )(
    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
    Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:23 am

    Well there is some good news from AR...

    Munich and Zürich are already on AR's website, although gone from the destinations list is Milan. The second 747-400 has brought the 747 fleet back up to six aircraft, and the A340 8C-Checks are nicely underway with work on the second of the four aircraft, LV-ZPJ, already complete, and on time:


    View Large View Medium
    Click here for bigger photo!

    Photo © Luis



    Furthermore, former American Falcon F28 LV-WZC is just about ready to begin its new life with AR covering the AEP-ROS-AEP and AEP-BHI-VDM(Viedma)-AEP sectors. Strange but nice to see an F28 flying for AR after the original examples met their ends prematurely after being culled by the SEPI management in 1995:


    View Large View Medium
    Click here for bigger photo!

    Photo © Carlos A. Abella



    And finally, former Spirit MD-83 N824NK looks likely to join AR/AU next month, although there is no news on the other ex-FlyingFinn MD-83, OH-LMR, which should have joined the fleet months ago. Another Marsans mystery...

    Saludos,

    ZXV

    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    Arcano
    Topic Author
    Posts: 2299
    Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:24 am

    Thanks ZXV, but there are a couple of things I don't understand:

    1. Why MUC and Zurich? I mean, how big markets are those cities over, for instance, AMS, BER, BRU, ATH...? have those cities particular lonks with Argentina?

    2. F28s... who old are them? why are them targeted to Rosario? hwta a/c is currently doing it? is a downgrade for ROS or it's for adding more frequencies?

    Regards
    )(
    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
     
    TBCITDG
    Posts: 851
    Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:13 am

    I think that the Marsan group are looking outside the picture of Aerolineas Argentinas with regards to most of their European destinations.
    People always rave on about the cheap air fares that are offered by AR to London for example. There would be no point in sending the 744 to Munich/Zurich/London for example so they use a smaller aircraft type to 'shuttle' passengers back and forth between MAD and those cities and in return sell any spare seats at a very low price. Something I am sure many tourist (not necessarily traveling on to Argentina) really enjoy.
    The same thing is done across the Tasman. AR and LA sometimes offer the cheapest air fares between AKL and SYD.
     
    dcajet
    Posts: 643
    Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:17 am

    Why MUC and ZRH?

    Besides looking outside the picture of AR to extend the reach of the Marsans group from Madrid (not sure if Spanair serves those cities), two interesting facts:

    * SR quit flying their long time EZE service earlier this year due to their appalling economic situation. Flight terminates at GRU now. If one wants to fly EZE-ZRH, AR is the name of the game now.

    * LH has a daily EZE-FRA A340-600 service, so AR can concentrate on Southern Germany/Austria with service to MUC.

    AR is making a killing on the ARG-Europe-ARG routes now... the most profitable part of their operation by far.

    Lets see if these flights "stick" as opposed to MXP...
    "Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
    Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:00 am

    Hola Arcano (desde Londres!),

    I think your first question has been already answered, with regards to Swiss, who, in any case, probably couldn't serve EZE non-stop now that their MD-11s are gone. Lufthansa began direct services to EZE last December (a first for them, I think) and British Airways is upgrading to the 747-400 as of November (still stopping at GRU, but oh well...).

    Re the F28:


    View Large View Medium
    Click here for bigger photo!

    Photo © Enrique Argento - Aviation Photography Of Miami



    According to AR sources, the aircraft has already been added to the fleet, but I have no idea as to whether it is wearing AR colours or hybrid American Falcon/AR colours, and neither do I know if the lease is "dry" or "wet".
    What I can tell you is that the aircraft first flew in January 1970, and served many years with Horizon. It joined the Argentine register is 1998, for a one-aircraft company called Aerogaucho, which never really took off and subsequently, the F28 became American Falcon's first aircraft (from 1995-99 they were leasing F28s from the Air Force/LADE). It flew until May 2003 for American Falcon until it entered for a C-Check at EZE where it remained until its surprise reactivation days ago. I would hazard a guess that American Falcon chose to store the aircraft instead of paying the necessary maintenance costs, as LAER did with their F28 (LV-LZN) which spent over a year hangared at Paraná.
    Ironically, AR's latest acquisition is now the oldest aircraft in their fleet.  Big grin

    Saludos,

    ZXV

    P.S. Until now AU were operating a "triangular" AEP-ROS-SFE (Santa Fe)-AEP service with a 737-200. Not sure if it has been discontinued, but the F28 will serve ROS direct once daily and sometimes twice, as well as Santa Rosa and Viedma (triangular).
    A lot of destinations less than an hour from Buenos Aires would be best served by F28s or the like (Mar del Plata, Montevideo, Paraná, Punta, Rosario, Santa Fe, Villa Gesell etc.). 737-200s are impossible to fill year-round on these routes, a fact SEPI failed to consider when they scrapped AR's F28s in 1995, leaving some of said cities without air services until the advent of Aerovip.

    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    TBCITDG
    Posts: 851
    Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:38 pm

    LV:
    There is a picture of the F28 wearing the Austral colors. The rego is LV-WZC.
    Some of the routes that it will operate are:
    AEP-ROS
    AEP-VDA-RSA-AEP
    AEP-RSA-VDA-AEP
    (all info given to me on another web site).
     
    User avatar
    Renton_WA
    Posts: 95
    Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 1:49 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:17 pm

    American Falcon's F28 is painted in AR colors

    tried posting a direct link to them but didn't allow me, maybe because of copyrights? Anyway...

    http://www.skyliner-aviation.de/

    Go to New photos and select F28 you'll see the AR/Austral shots.

    Yea it's old but have fond memories of countless Buenos Aires - Villa Gesell flights.


     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
    Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:45 pm

    Looks good! To me the F28 is one of those planes that looks like it could fly forever, like its propeller cousin, the F27. Something about those Fokkers...

    Any chance the "other" F28 (LV-LZN) will re-enter service?


    View Large View Medium
    Click here for bigger photo!

    Photo © BAIRES Aviation Photography
    View Large View Medium
    Click here for bigger photo!

    Photo © BAIRES Aviation Photography



    Saludos,

    ZXV

    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    Arcano
    Topic Author
    Posts: 2299
    Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:52 pm

    ZXV (saludos a Londres):

    Lufthansa began direct services to EZE last December (a first for them, I think)


    What do you mean by that? LH is flying directly to EZE for much more than 10 months, or did I mean something? DO you mean the change to the 346 last dec?

    I still think it's weird to see again F28s in AR colors... BTW, I'll be back in BsAs in in October... this time by LAN!
    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
    Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:21 am

    Arcano:

    I honestly don't remember LH serving EZE direct. Maybe they added the GRU stop during the recent crisis, and flew direct before then, but British Airways pilots told me throughout the '90s that the Buenos Aires-London sector was the longest non-stop flight out of EZE (until BA began stopping at GRU in 2003). Buenos Aires-Frankfurt is over 200 miles further from Buenos Aires than London. You'd have to check, but I have no recollection of LH flying direct, and if I'm not mistaken, when the A340-600 replaced the 747-400 on December 15 last year, LH boasted that it was their longest non-stop service, so I guess it was new...

    Saludos,

    ZXV

    P.S. Nothing like Buenos Aires in October!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    Lan_Fanatic
    Posts: 1056
    Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 11:41 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:38 am

    If I'm not mistaken the flight was always FRA-EZE-SCL. Then, with the argentinian crisis LH switched to FRA-GRU-EZE and FRA-GRU-SCL (please somebody correct me if I'm wrong). After that, when the A340-600s were introduced the flight returned to be FRA-EZE-SCL
     
    s.p.a.s.
    Posts: 916
    Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2001 2:04 pm

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:30 am

    Lan_Fanatic,

    Your are correct mate. But IIRC, during the early 90s the routing was indeed FRA-GRU-EZE (flight operated with 747-200s). After LH received the -400s (1993?) they separated Brazilian and Argentinean/Chilean markets and later downgraded Brazilian flights to A340s (mid 90s).

    Just recently (two years ago) they returned with 747-400s routing FRA-GRU-EZE and GRU-SCL. Since one year more or less ago they switched again to FRA-GRU-GIG (B744) and FRA-EZE-SCL (A346).

    Well.. I hope I made myself clear.

    Gran saludos

    Renato
    "ad astra per aspera"
     
    Arcano
    Topic Author
    Posts: 2299
    Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

    RE: Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile

    Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:09 pm

    Renato, thanks a lot!

    I actually forgot that, but you are totally right; before the awefull A346, LH honored us with their gorgeous 744 via GRU!

    Regards )(
    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346