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B737-112
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No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!

Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:55 am

It was on a AA Fokker F100 (N1420D) from Des Moines (DSM) to Dallas (DFW) operating as AAL1067. As we started our long taxi my brother and I started discussing when the flaps will come down, as we approached the end it bacame a very scary experience picturing that MD-80 (I believe it was) that went into the water many years ago because the pilot forgot the flaps. After a long takeoff roll and then about a 1000 foot roll on just the main gear the plane lumbers into the sky unwilling to leave ground effect. After we landed I asked the captain and he said it's normal on that equipment type. -Ryan
 
NKP S2
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RE: No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!

Wed Mar 01, 2000 3:09 am

Not to sound like a wise guy..but were you referring to trailing edge flaps or leading edge (slats/and or flaps)? Fokker jets don't have leading edge devices. Some people confuse the two. Later.
 
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B737-112
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RE: No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!

Wed Mar 01, 2000 3:23 am

I was referring to flaps in general, not one notch of trailing edge or leading edge. That's what I noticed and the pilot said. -Ryan
 
jabpilot
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RE: No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!

Wed Mar 01, 2000 3:42 am

i believe the crash you mention was a Northwest Airlines, MD-80 series jet departing Detroit-Metro. it was caused by not using the "leading edge slats" for the takeoff and it crashed just after lifting out of ground effect. i believe the FAA ruled the crash "pilot error" and thought it may have been caused by distractions in the cockpit while there was excessive talking going on between the flight crew and a flight attendant.
 
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RE: No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!

Wed Mar 01, 2000 3:43 am

At our local airport The KLMuk F100's flying out of there never have the flaps down.
 
kaitak
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RE: No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!

Wed Mar 01, 2000 4:58 am

A 767 can takeoff with the flaps at one and I've been in an Emirates A310 where the flaps were up, but the slats only extended.
 
L-188
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RE: No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!

Wed Mar 01, 2000 5:14 am

I belive that on the MD-80 type most of the lift is generated not by the flaps but the leading edge slats.........

A safe takeoff can be made with any aircraft type with the flaps up......The aircraft just has to accelerate to a speed where the "clean" wing is able to generate more life then the aircraft weight........With most jet airliners that would require takeing off from a very large dry lakebed instead of the average airport runway in order to get enough speed.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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RE: No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!

Wed Mar 01, 2000 6:48 am

I had a no slats/flaps departure from Buffalo, NY in a United 737-200. It really startled me, when we were rolling, I thought of Northwest flight 255 (the DTW crash). The roll didn't seem that long, though.
 
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F100 Flaps

Wed Mar 01, 2000 9:52 am

Just to add my, 2 Bob,
Don't know what happened but F100s have no leading edge slats at all. On T/O the leading edges are most important, if the load was light and the runway long I expect a flaps zero T/O was OK. The F28/F70/F100 are however vulnerable in icing conditions - see the Air BC F28 crash at Dryden and the US Air F28 crash at La Guardia.
 
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Bruce
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To B737-112

Wed Mar 01, 2000 10:36 am

Just wondering...was it a light flight? Light load or full max. capacity?

I'd guess it was light...and with the light weight they can go for zero flaps.

I bet if it was fully loaded they'd need flaps, right?

Bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
n949wp
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RE: No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!

Wed Mar 01, 2000 10:41 am

Aeroflot's A310's are regularly seen taking off from HKG on the non-stop flight to Moscow with flaps retracted, even on hot days!! Wonder if it had more to do with the load factor than the aircraft's performance.
 
leon
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One Less Possible Error

Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:07 am

If you watch wings like me on taxi out, you must hate waiting for the last-second deployment of slat and flaps. I prefer to fly Fokker aircraft for that reason. Gets rid of the suspense. Who needs another Northwest-like pilot error.
 
AA737-823
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F100 And Flaps On Takeoff

Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:14 am

I hope you haven't given up on getting a straight answer. I was on an American F100 flight from ATL to DFW (number 530 or 570, I think) and the plane was FULL. There was not one empty seat on that plane. We took off without any flaps. I was with my grandfather, and it scared both of us to the point of saying our goodbyes. We took off uneventfully, however, and enjoyed a smooth flight home.
Randy
 
tr1492
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RE: No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!

Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:15 am

Not too long ago I took a USAirways F-100 from PHI-ALB, the plane was full and we also took off w/zero flaps! And yes, it scared the heck out of me, too!!! The takeoff roll and climbout were normal. On approach, the pilot used 48 degrees (I believe) of flaps (USAir's F-100's have the flap angle indicators marked off on the wing so all can see them). I, too, tried finding out how this was possible with a full plane (probably not much fuel onboard for the short flight, though!) - does the F-100 generate that much lift without flaps??? Pretty neat, although a little disconcerting!!!
 
AA777
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RE: No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!

Wed Mar 01, 2000 12:02 pm

Well once the pilot left the ailerons in the full left bank position even during the takeoff roll(MD-80) ... i thought the plane was gonna bank left, clip the wing and there i would go in a big fire ball...but we were fine... ( the ailerons moved to the normal position after we were about halfway down the takeoff roll.) I know that doesnt have anything to do with flaps...but it still scared me...
-AA777
 
Happy-flier
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It Happened Once In A DC-9-32...

Wed Mar 01, 2000 12:13 pm

I have an example from when I used to fly frequently on Air Canada's DC-9's. Trailing edge flaps were usually extended for takeoff, but I do remember one instance where on taxi the crew extended the flaps to about 30 degrees and then retracted them up to 0 degrees just prior to takeoff. I don't recall the ground run length, but I do know that with the compulsory forward slats deployed and 0 trailing edge, our takeoff was very steep indeed. I would think that this technique would be perfectly fine on days when your headwind is high and the load is relatively light.

Don't know if a DC-8 could do it though...

Best...
May the wind be always at your back . . . except during takeoff & landing.
 
N754PR
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RE: No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!

Wed Mar 01, 2000 12:18 pm

I saw a Philippine 744 try this once !!, off course as soon as he applied the power he took it off again. I guess all kinds of alarms must have gone off !!

Daryl
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
Ilyushin96M
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RE: No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!

Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:10 pm

I think this has more to do with the design of the wing. I know both the Fokker F100 and Airbus A310 have a special high-lift design. Any other aircraft use it?
 
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Bruce
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Wing Designs

Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:28 pm

I thought the 727 has a "high-lift" wing design but has anyone ever seen a 727 take off with no flaps??

It must have something to do with the aircraft's design.
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
Spacepope
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Northwest Dc-9

Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:30 pm

This happened to me on a flight from MCI to MSP. The pilot actually came over the intercom and announced that we would be making a flaps up takeoff, and that it was a rare occurance. This probably had to do with the fact that we had a 9,000 foot runway, and about 3 pax on board.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
shankly
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RE: No Flaps Departure? KLMUKF-100's

Wed Mar 01, 2000 5:22 pm

Have flown KLMUK's F100's out of Stansted, London with no trailing edge flap selected and am still here. Don't forget flaps cause drag as well. Taking off with landing configured flaps wouldn't be too healthy either. I'd only get worried if they weren't extended for landing
L1011 - P F M
 
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B737-112
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RE: No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!

Wed Mar 01, 2000 5:24 pm

To Bruce, the high-lift design on the 727 comes from the flaps/slats themselves, so I'm pretty sure a 727 would be unsuccessful even at the longest runways without them. Here's the info on my flight! Total fuel on board = 13,824lbs with a ramp weight of 85,257lbs, which means it was almost totally full. -Ryan
 
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RE: MD-80 Control Surfaces

Wed Mar 01, 2000 8:05 pm

AA777- The ailerons and elevators on DC-9s and MD-80s are controlled by the small control tabs mounted on the surface itself. The tab controls surface movement by moving in an opposite direction of the desired surface position. You can rotate the control wheel in the cockpit and all you will move are the tabs on the ailerons. The ailerons will become faired when there is enough airflow across them. This is why you saw the ailerons in a turn and then straighten themselves out during the takeoff roll.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
Boeing727
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AA F100 Flaps...

Thu Mar 02, 2000 2:44 am

I have been travelling on numerous AA F100 and I have yet to see any flaps extended for take-off. I have been on full and long flights and those darn things never come down for T/O....

Boeing727
 
Scotty
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RE: No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!

Thu Mar 02, 2000 5:15 am

Today I watched a KLMuk F100 and a British Midland F100 take off from Edinburgh. They are so laid back its unreal. But some of my best flights have been on these aircraft and they are excellent. I once flew on an Avianova F70 ex Florence and they are equally laid back on take off.
 
wannabe
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RE: No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!

Thu Mar 02, 2000 6:29 am

Can anyone get a hold of an F-100 checklist and settle the question?
 
AAR90
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RE: No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!

Thu Mar 02, 2000 12:18 pm

I flew as AA F100 FO in BNA 1995-1996. At that time AA's F100 standard procedure was to use Flaps-8 for all takeoffs unless conditions did not permit that configuration. However, the aircraft's performance manual indicated Flaps-0 as having greater load carrying capability under all but the shortest of runway conditions. Early 1996 AA tried to vary flap settings for takeoff to the best setting for the conditions. At that time it was decided that standardization (one standard takeoff configuration) was preferred with deviations only when/where required. Too many variables caused too great a potential for crew error (setting wrong configuration and/or using wrong speeds). On the F-100, AA settled for Flaps-8 as standard takeoff configuration at that time. It may have changed since, I do not know.

BTW, my last flight on the F100 was no flap takeoff and landing. Not for performance reasons, but because a fairing broke and it wasn't covered by MEL at the time. Required ferry flight CLE to AFW. Great fun!
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
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B737-112
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To AAR90

Thu Mar 02, 2000 4:42 pm

Do you remember what speed was used on that approach? Also, what type do you fly now?
 
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RE: To AAR90

Thu Mar 02, 2000 7:48 pm

>Do you remember what speed was used on that approach?

150-160 knots I think. Been a long time ago.

>Also, what type do you fly now?

Captain, MD90.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
dnalor
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RE: No Flaps Departure? AA777

Tue Mar 14, 2000 9:00 pm

I think the main reason you saw the ailerons activated was that the pilot was performing a cross wind take off, which requires less aileron as speed increases.  
 
KALB
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RE: No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!

Wed Mar 15, 2000 12:22 am

I have flown on USAIRWAYS F-100 several times. I remember a ALB-CLT flight was no-flaps take-off. No problem. I believe SAAB S-340 uses no flaps for take-off as well.
 
MD-90
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RE: I'm Guessing Not Many Of You Are Pilots

Wed Mar 15, 2000 7:08 am

Flaps are primarily used for landings. Even with spoilers, thrust reversers, and brakes, stopping an airliner is hard work. It's easier to firewall the throttle and gain speed. On smaller aircraft, if they have slats, they automaticly deploy when the aerodyamic loads reach a certain point. I wouldn't be worried about a no flaps takeoff unless it was in a chock full 744 bound from LAX to Australia. Then I'd be worried, because you'd probably run off the end of the runway before you'd get up to flying speed. Really, on takeoff the flaps only help you get into the air at a slower airspeed. Twin engined jets are well overpowered that I consider a no flaps takeoff a non-issue (unless you're flying a 727-200 packed full from La Guardia to ATL on a 95 degree day).

Taken 1 month before crashing at DFW August 31, 1988, due to misconfiguration of flaps.

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Photo © Frank Schaefer



They don't make them like that anymore.

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Photo © Damon Alexander



Notice how the spoilers are open and the air can flow up behind them. This causes the Coriolis? Effect; the air sticks to the flaps and moves downwards, pushing the wing towards the ground.

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Photo © Ryan Gaddis

 
MD-90
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Addendum

Wed Mar 15, 2000 7:24 am

I didn't mean to offend anybody with the jibe about not being pilots. The Kolb ultralight I fly doesn't even HAVE flaps. Of course, it has a very efficient high lift wing and doesn't need them, but it comes at the expense of about 3-4 mph of cruise (important when flat out with a Rotax 447 all it will do is 75 mph, cruise is about 60-65).

IMPORTANT: In Flying there recently was an article in their Best of Flying series. It was written by the famed Len Morgan, and of particular interest is that the flaps on the 727, all 26 of them, were absolutely reliable. The coffeemakers in the galley failed more often than the flaps did. It's a great article, I'd read it if you can.

Some many great pictures, so little time

Don't she just look fine with winglets? The classiest jet ever built. She can still hold her head up with pride.

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Photo © Keith Leonhardt



BLAST-OFF! (and living near HSV, that means a lot!)

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Photo © Terry Hale



Clean as a whistle and twice as loud, a pre-delivery 1977 test flight.

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Photo © Bob Harrington - Mazama Photographs



 
KALB
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RE: Addendum

Wed Mar 15, 2000 10:22 am

MD-90 is right. Great Article on the venerable three-holer by Len Morgan. Delta flies only 727-200 into ALB from ATL and CVG. UA morning departure ALB-ORD is also 727-200. I hear it is fastest except for 747-400.

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