qqflyboy
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AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:01 am

MAARIV International is reporting today that a Canadian Intelligence Agency has uncoverved information linking the crash of AA 587, an A300-600R that crashed in Queens, New York on November 13, 2001, to al Qaeda.

http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=11037

The report indicates a shoe bomb may have been used to down the plane carrying 265 passengers and crew.
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hz747300
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:08 am

Not able to believe this. If the accident was not captured on camera by a toll booth security tape, maybe they would have been able to snow people on this one.

Without an explosion prior to impact as witnessed on tape--there is no reason to believe anything other than what was originally thought: Wake turbulence snapping off a tailfin causing loss of control.
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qqflyboy
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:13 am

I agree that it sounds suspicious. It's just the first time I've heard of any "official" linking of the crash to terrorism, and even that is vague. I just wanted to share for everyone here and check out other's opinions.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
as739x
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:20 am

This was already discussed about 3 weeks ago!!


Its hard to swalloW...don't buy it!

assfo
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BIGBlack
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:28 am

I buy TW800 more than this one
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Starlionblue
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:32 am

Why did no one take responsibility then?


there is no reason to believe anything other than what was originally thought: Wake turbulence snapping off a tailfin causing loss of control.

Wake turbulence did not snap off the tailfin. If that sort of thing happened, the A300-600 would have been grounded. The tailfin is much stronger than that.



I have personally been on an A300-600 and I seriously thought we were going down shortly after takeoff

ok......


I buy TW800 more than this one

What is it about TWA800 that you buy? That it actually crashed?



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
hz747300
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:40 am

there is no reason to believe anything other than what was originally thought: Wake turbulence snapping off a tailfin causing loss of control.

Wake turbulence did not snap off the tailfin. If that sort of thing happened, the A300-600 would have been grounded. The tailfin is much stronger than that.


Wake turbulence led to a forced rudder movement (over-reaction) by the PIC, which led to a snap of the tailfin, which led to the loss of control of the aircraft, which led to the engine falling off before impact. I clearly remember two distinct fires from the direction of the impact from the jetBlue terminal at JFK.

I have personally been on an A300-600 and I seriously thought we were going down shortly after takeoff

This comment is as silly as the article.

I buy TW800 more than this one

If you are saying that you are more abt to believe that TWA 800 went down due to terrorist activity than AA 587--you have a point. At least with TWA 800, there was an explosion in flight, the mark of a bomb attack as opposed to AA 587 which had no such explosion prior to impact.

At the end of the day, Al Qaeda can say anything they want. They are accountable to no one, and they know that for a few their words can bring back powerful images of destruction.
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Starlionblue
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:44 am

Wake turbulence led to a forced rudder movement (over-reaction) by the PIC, which led to a snap of the tailfin, which led to the loss of control of the aircraft, which led to the engine falling off before impact. I clearly remember two distinct fires from the direction of the impact from the jetBlue terminal at JFK.

That is the current trend in the investigation yes. Sounds plausible to me but what do I know  Big grin

The important thing to remember is that repeated rudder movement led to the overstress, not a single rudder movement.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BIGBlack
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:46 am

I was joking about the takeoff. It was meant to be silly. It was a rough flight though. I gotta make a trip journal entry.

Anyway, yes, I agree and I am indeed more abt to believe that TWA 800 was a terrorist attack. Or sadder even, US Military misfire, but whatever it was, it is really shady to me.

I would think Al Qaeda would be very vocal if they were responsible. Like dropping off a tape at Al Jerreza or whatever that station is. They would want to world to know they did it if it was successful.
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cedarjet
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:55 am

Why do people think the NTSB are idiots? How come a bunch of conspiracy theorists know that TW800 was brought down by a bomb and / or US missile? I know scientists get a hard time in the US by the religious nutters who seem to think stem cell research et al is an affront to their god (until their husband gets Alzheimers anyway) but they are the best in the world and believe me, if there was a shoebomb (AA587) or missile (TW800) involved, they would know.

Next.
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FoxBravo
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:59 am

My question is, WHY? If they had the capability to smuggle a shoe bomb past security, why on earth would they choose a flight full of Dominicans? Doesn't make much of a political statement...

Sorry, but these conspiracy theories are getting more and more ridiculous.
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AIR MALTA
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:01 am

Was the video of the crash released??? I did not see anything on the news?
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Iberia340600
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:05 am

HA HA....I needed a good laugh! Downed by Al Qaida??? Give me a break...they are trying to take credit in a situation where they had no influence. If there was a shoe bomb...where was the explosion? Where is the exposives residue? Was the so called "shoe bomber" sitting on the tail and thats why it broke off??

Come on people...the media is a terrible place to get information.
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Boeing Nut
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:11 am

Asinine. Simply asinine.
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N1120A
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:12 am

I think this is someone trying to engineer some fear for political purposes. AA587 has been shown clearly to have been caused by the rudder output (which would have been proper on the other a/c the PIC, the First Officer, had bee certified on). Airbus claims they informed AA about this and that AA did not train its pilots to not imput extreme rudder. AA claims Airbus did no such thing and was at fault. You don't see squabling like this if something was caused by a shoe bomb. And remember, the only shoe bomber ever would not have been able to set off his bomb. You need a charge to blow C-4 and all he did was try to light it (would have smoked a bit).
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aa777jr
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:39 am

Where is the video of AA587 going down? Would like to view.

AA777jr
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hz747300
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:44 am

They had screen stills on the cover and inside the New York Post, shortly after the accident. I do not know if the movie has been released to the public. Try .
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Starlionblue
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:05 am

AA587 has been shown clearly to have been caused by the rudder output (which would have been proper on the other a/c the PIC, the First Officer, had bee certified on).


Yes and no. It's not just an Airbus thing and the F/O should not have been doing what he was doing on any plane.

Four years before the accident, Airbus, MD and Boeing wrote a joint letter to AA expressing concern about the overemphasis on rudder usage in AA's flight upset training program.

For the record, the fin/rudder in question withstood 1.9 times the maximum force expected in normal operation before breaking, with the certification requirement being 1.5 times. In other words, the fin/rudder was much stronger than necessary.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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solnabo
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:34 am

"AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda"!!!!!!!

All I can say about this topic:

Cow Manure  Nuts

Micke/SE
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gearup
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:14 am

For a shoe bomber (Mr. Reid type) to bring down an airliner, success would depend on the initial explosion being able to rupture the pressure hull and allow the explosive decompression of the cabin to finish the destruction of the aircraft. I think that this is more or less what happened to Pan Am (Lockerbie), TWA over Long Island and Air India off the Irish coast. The AA Airbus was just after taking off and was not at a sufficient altitude for there to exist any pressure differential in the passenger cabin at the point where it crashed. I don't think a 'shoeful' of explosives could cause the type of tragedy we are talking about.

GU
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airportugal310
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:49 am

First off:

I have personally been on an A300-600 and I seriously thought we were going down shortly after takeoff

WOW!........and the reason you though this was???


All I can say about this topic:

Cow Manure


My thoughts exactly.
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HlywdCatft
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:55 am

**"Why did no one take responsibility then?"**

(I am not saying I believe that it was an Al Qaida attack, but I am keeping an open mind to it)


They may have, but how do the citizens find out? thru the media. How does the media find out? By what the government tells them.

People were paranoid to fly after 9-11, everything was coming unglued, the economy in shambles. If this was announced that Al Qaida hit again, what would happen in America? Chaos, the airline industry and several other industries would barely be alive after this. Faith in Homeland Security would be zero at that point for allowing another terrorist attack to happen and what would happen to W's reelection hopes? bye bye. He can claim that no terrorist attack happened since 9-11 during his term now and that he is the right one to be reelected. But if it is revealed that it is a terrorist attack the people lose faith. The only reason that the Richard Reid incident was released was that there is no way you are going to keep 200+ passengers hushed on an AA 767 while that struggle was going on and it was bound to get out in the news. As for Flight 587, if the NTSB says something to the public, most people buy it just like people bought their explanation for TWA 800 because they are a reputable organization... nevermind that they are an arm of the government and the spokesperson is NOT the person who did the investigation.
 
LEARJET23
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:56 am

I saw this plane go down! So did millions! It was on tape, and I think I got it off this site, or air disasters .com Whatever happened was extremely violent and faster than I would have ever thought a large heavy object could move around. This fully loaded plane looked like a plastic toy that had been shattered. God bless the people and families! Truly a heartbreaking sight!
 
ilovejets
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:14 am

well i think that they are putting everything on AL Qaeda. why????
 
BIGBlack
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:34 am

First off:

I have personally been on an A300-600 and I seriously thought we were going down shortly after takeoff

WOW!........and the reason you though this was???


Once again, it was a joke, read pal. It makes you look better.

As far as TWA is concerned, I am sorry buy the NTSB is a goverment agency and you cannot fully trust them for shit. Too many people saew too many strange things to make me accept the shit they are shoveling
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flybyguy
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:53 am

Gearup,

Your argument makes sense... in fact I am studying the explosive decompression issues on the DC-10 cargo doors for one of my classes.
As you said, it is unlikely that the pressure differential at such a low altitude would induce catastrophic failure of the airframe unless an explosion caused the pilots to react in such a manner resulting in the overstressing of the vertical stabilizer. After all, small explosive devices do not often produce a visible fireball (probably more like a pressure wave).

It is pretty hard for me to believe that wake turbulence from a large jet (747-400) can down another similarly sized jet (A300-600R).


Ilovejets,
well i think that they are putting everything on AL Qaeda. why????

its the only terrorist organization we Americans know and can pronounce  Nuts

"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
SpruceGoose
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:53 am

Wasn't the crash through over compensation of the rudder through a crosswind? The F/O over reacted. Through investigation wasn't it down to the way AA pilots have been trained? Sorry if my facts are a little fuzzy.

Is every air crash now going to be treated as a terrorist action because someone didn't understand the cause and effect of pilot/mechanical/weather action?
Or are we to believe the ranting of a frightened man caught on suspicion of Terrorist activities who obviously doesn't want to go down alone. As an earlier post said - Al Jazeera would have very happily picked up this story had it had a shred of truth to it.

 
BIGBlack
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:54 am

Yea, I dunno. All I do know is any terrorist org would take responsiblility for it if they did it. Most cowards are like that.
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airportugal310
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:14 am

Hey BigBlack:

Q: You know what else makes people look better?

A: When they refrain from making less than stellar comments.

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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jakbar
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:17 am

The "tollbooth" video of the crash is indeed publicly available. http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2001/AA587/anim_587.htm. There's also a video of the departure which was taken by a group of construction workers near the beginning of the runway.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:20 am

As you said, it is unlikely that the pressure differential at such a low altitude would induce catastrophic failure of the airframe unless an explosion caused the pilots to react in such a manner resulting in the overstressing of the vertical stabilizer. After all, small explosive devices do not often produce a visible fireball (probably more like a pressure wave).

It is pretty hard for me to believe that wake turbulence from a large jet (747-400) can down another similarly sized jet (A300-600R).



Wake turbulence didn't bring the plane down.

As you say, the pilots acted in a manner that overstressed the fin. This could of course have been an explosion but there is no evidence of this. It seems an easier conclusion that it was wake turbulence.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BIGBlack
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:24 am

Hey Starlionblue,

is the NTSB still investigating and if so when do you see a offical statement coming out?
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Starlionblue
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:39 am

They are still investigating. Should have mentioned that. There is no word on a final finding as yet, but there is plenty of material on the NTSB website regarding the investigation.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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airportugal310
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:46 am

As for AA587, I think that this whole Al-Queda thought is a completely proposterous idea. Why? I figure, though cannot deduce, that something as obvious as a terrorist act would be thoroughly investigated, especially due to its close proximity in date to September 11, 2001.

Just my thought, of course  Smile

---------------------------

You know...its funny.

As a general statement for most people, if you claim to not have any knowledge of the aviation industry and then parade about saying that you know this and that and that others "talk out of their ass", that is truly a hypocritical thing to do.

For instance, I, a commercially rated intstrument pilot, talking on an aviation board makes true sense. I can relate to many topics and the like. Also, working at a busy international airport, I can also contribute to spotting reports, make spotting reports, etc...

It is time to go onto another thread and be useful there. This thread has seen enough.

-------------------------------





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BIGBlack
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:46 am

Thanks for the info. I know must investigations take years.
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burnsie28
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:47 am

The most suspescious thing is that it said CANADIAN IA, since this was a US aircraft on US soil, they would have access to this how?
 
NIKV69
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:58 am

Oh yea, a shoe bomb went off and made the tail separate from the plane. Give me a break. The CVR shows a loss of control due to the JAL 747.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:07 am

Thanks for the info. I know must investigations take years.

Go to the NTSB and search for the accident in their database. The PDFs are very interesting.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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airportugal310
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:29 am

NIKV69,

My friend....for once I am going to have to agree with you on this one. I really dont know where they went and fetched that information.

Later!
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BIGBlack
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:36 am

Go to the NTSB and search for the accident in their database. The PDFs are very interesting.



Thank you sir. I agree. The other night I was reading the NTSB PDF concerning Singapore Airlines flight SQ006. Very interesting stuff.
Someone special in the air
 
AFROTC
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaida

Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:35 am

Oh God. Come on, how hard is it to accept the plain truth. There was wake turbulence, the PIC over corrected the tail snapped the plane crashed and people unfortunately died. I would like to see some of you put in the sim and see how your reaction would be to the same event...
We've Been Looking For You, United States Airforce, Cross Into The Blue!
 
UA772IAD
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:03 am

There is no way that that is true. Months of months of NTSB studies proved that it was caused by wake turbulence and stress on the airframe. Just look on airdisaster.com
 
MakeMinesLAX
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:18 am

There's also a video of the departure which was taken by a group of construction workers near the beginning of the runway.

This is quite an odd snippet. If the entire excerpt is uneditted, it depicts some unusual "directorial" choices by the camera-wielder - it's almost as if he/she were trying to capture the departure of an acquaintance who was flying American that morning (without knowing the flight, aircraft, etc.)

If it is editted (i.e. showing as much detail as is believed to be relevant), the NTSB has made an outright goof by including the footage of a 737-800 six minutes earlier. I may be mistaken, but the climb-out footage (even though it falls in approximately the correct timeframe) strikes me as being of a 737 as well. I get the "737 impression" from the aircraft behind the A300 as the camera pans to the latter's takeoff roll.

I'm not jumping on the conspiracy theory bandwagon, just pointing out the questionable value of this video.
 
rikkus67
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:54 am

quoted from Maariv:

"A western intelligence source claims that the CSIS (Canadian Intelligence Service) has obtained evidence linking al Qaeda to the unsolved case of AA flight 587..."

"According to the report, unconfirmed by any other authority, the information came to light following the arrest of Mohammed Mansour Jabarra, an al Qaeda operative, by Canadian authorities..."

"The CSIS declined to make any comment whatsoever..."

my question is: who is the intelligence source? and if it is "official", why is CSIS refusing to comment?

As has been stated above, nothing like stirring up American paranoia!

C'mon people... lets get back to the root of the problem...the design of the rudder, and the co-pilots actions.

man...I can hear "BLAME CANADA" playing in the background now.


AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
ETStar
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:10 am

Not surprised to see this report from an Israeli/Jewish source (which i have no issues against), since they also claimed a few months ago that the Ethiopian Airlines aircraft that went down into the Inian Ocean back in 1996 was caused by Al Qaeda... What's next? JFK was killed by Al Qaeda? I am sure even the White House would make use of such information, if true, to advance and support Bush's bid in November.
 
PIA777
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:58 pm

Why stop there, lets see what we can blame Al Qaida for:

1.) The two 747s in Tenerife.
2.) The DC-10 flight 191 in ORD
3.) The Wind shear issue with Delta L1011 in DFW.

What else?? Al Qaida is responsible for 9/11 and they need to be dealt with
and removed from this planet but lets get real here.

PIA777
GO CUBS!!
 
spacecadet
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:12 pm


"According to the report, unconfirmed by any other authority, the information came to light following the arrest of Mohammed Mansour Jabarra, an al Qaeda operative, by Canadian authorities..."

"The CSIS declined to make any comment whatsoever..."


In other words, some guy who claims to be from Al Qaeda said he, or someone he knows, or somebody he knows' brother's sister's former roommate, brought the plane down.

This is nothing new. And it's not evidence of anything. And it's exactly what was discussed three weeks ago, and dismissed outright as foolishness, because that's exactly what it is. There is plenty of evidence in this case, evidence that you, yourself, can look at, and none of it points to anything other than structural failure brought on by the actions of the pilot.

Anyone can claim they did anything when they're trying to scare you. Hey everybody! I was responsible for the collapse of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge in 1940! It wasn't flutter, it was a bomb! No, really it was!

Do you believe me?
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
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RayChuang
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:25 pm

OH PLEASE!!

If AA 587 was brought down by a bomb there are things you'll notice:

1. You'll find the area where metal blew out from the point of explosion.

2. You'll find chemical residue from the bomb's explosive content.

Given that they found neither we can rule out a terrorist bomb attack.

Remember the bomb attack on the two Russian airliners a few weeks ago? In those two cases the Russian authorities DID find explosives residue and probably found structural damage at the area where the bomb exploded.
 
bennett123
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:32 pm

Spacecadet

Just looked at your profile.

Were'nt you at bit young in 1940.

Did you shoot JFK as well.
 
JJMNGR
Posts: 924
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RE: AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda

Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:40 pm

What is strange, not to say that it is ridiculous, is that a turbulence from a B747 ahead would cause an accident on a A300.
If we were talking about a small aircraft...ok...it might happened....but to interfere on a A300....

How many widebodied aircraft take off every time, followed by another one and we do not have this situation happening everyday?

This is strange to me.

Cheers.

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