PSA53
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Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:01 am

This was sent to me this morning.
Does anybody have anything on this one
as to the where/whats?

Unbelievable photos.

http://www.teamhouse.tni.net/Misc/noplay/cockpit.htm
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
CPH-R
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:03 am

While the pics are real, the socalled FDR text isn't - I personally doubt that the CVR would be on when the aircraft is parked at the gate.
 
airtran737
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:06 am

Actually the texy from the CVR is real, I have read it in a published report.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
9A-CRO
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:23 am

well cleaners were on airplane
http://aviation-safety.net/database/2000/000614-0.htm
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
 
air2gxs
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:27 am

The CVR is not real. This was, if I recall, a brake failure during maintenance taxi because the mechanics failed to run the checklist.

Starting the engine is not as easy as pushing a button. It requires a sequence of events that have to be performed correctly or you don't get a start.
 
LimaFoxTango
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:41 am

Whoever believes that text is simply foolish.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
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n229nw
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:43 am

On the other hand, there actually was a Russian A310 that crashed ten years ago, killing everyone, because the pilot let children play with the controls during the flight.
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
luv2fly
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:44 am

I believe that I read that it was a break failure as well.
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coa764
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:46 am

Pictures are real, text is not.. This happened in EWR a few years back. Mx was doing a power up on the engines and didn't set the brakes.
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
desertjets
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:48 am

I believe what happened here was that line mechanics were playing in the cockpit and firewalled the throttles... not knowing that the engines were running. It is difficult to hear the engines at idle in the pointy end of a MD-80. Plane went forward and carnage ensued.

The plane was a write-off.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
geoffm
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:49 am

AirTran, don't know where you read the CVR, but it doesn't tally with the website already mentioned or this one:
http://www.jacdec.de/j_report-00n16884.htm

Interestingly this was almost exactly 3 years after a very similar event happened to another CO aircraft, a 727, again at EWR: http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/n571pe/4.shtml

Geoff M.
 
PSA53
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:49 am

To 9A-CRO-

Thanks for the report.
It does say 6 cleaners were aboard.But it's
still blurred.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
levent
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:38 am

"On the other hand, there actually was a Russian A310 that crashed ten years ago, killing everyone, because the pilot let children play with the controls during the flight."

--- True, but this accident can´t be compared with this fault of course. In the Aeroflot case, the captain had his kids on the flight deck and let them steer the plane manually (the kid probably thought it worked the same as with that fighter game on the pc...). For some reason the crew didn´t notice the plane was going down...
 
corey07850
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:45 am

Mx (who's name I'll omit) did not follow checklist, throttle levers were at full, and brakes were not set prior to engine start.... The text in the link at the top is false.
 
geoffm
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:49 am

Levent, from what I recall (apologies if any errors), the kids were sitting in the pilot and copilot's seats, with the plane on autopilot. The first officer was at the back of the plane talking to passengers. One of the kids pushed the steering thingy (of whatever type) sharply forward, which disengaged the autopilot, and sent the plane into a deep dive. The captain (and certainly not the FO) was not able to bring it under control again (guessing probably after mashing his nose on the windscreen). The events were pieced together from the CVR.

Geoff M.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:54 am

No jet transport aircraft I have flown (and I have flown more than I care to admit) has an "engine start" one step button. Even the easiest, and most automated to start, that is the latest Airbus series, have at least several steps for engine start.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
cedarjet
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 5:55 am

Actually what happened on the Aeroflot flight is that the captain's son was in the captain's seat and his daughter was in the copilot's seat. The son moved the steering thingy ("control column") which put the aircraft into a bank, and disconnected the lateral axis of the autopilot, leaving the vertical axis ("V nav") still under automatic control. From this point, the aircraft (flown, semi-unaware, by the boy) kept rolling, but the autopilot kept maintaining the programmed altitude.

As the plane rolled over further, lift was gradually lost while trying to maintain altitude (and it was high, 39,000 feet if memory serves) so the autopilot kept bringing the nose up, airspeed bled off and they stalled as they rolled past vertical, and the aircraft went straight into a spin (induced by the unusual bank angle at the moment of the stall). The G forces exerted by the spin made it impossible for the captain to reach past his son and get his hands on the controls until they were almost into the ground, and as we know, got there too late to pull out in time.

It may seem surprising but jets don't need much rudder to make a coordinated turn, so there is very little G sensation in a turn and even an "unusual attitude" may go undetected until all hell breaks loose, completely unexpectedly. In fact some cockpits (UK I'm sure this is the rule; not so everywhere else) have an alarm or beep that sounds if bank angle exceeds 30 deg, and it does exist for a reason (see also: Air-India 747 crash at Bombay, 1 Jan 78).
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
LY744
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:00 am

"On the other hand, there actually was a Russian A310 that crashed ten years ago, killing everyone, because the pilot let children play with the controls during the flight."

You may want to rephrase that, as to make it just a bit more truthful. If you can't do that, you shouldn't have brought this up at all.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
levent
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:01 am

Remember the Eastern L1011 crash in the Everglades? The crew was focusing on whether the gear was down and locked or not, as one of the indicator light bulbs was broken, and in the meantime the captain accidentaly pushed the yoke forward enough for the autopilot to disangage. The plane crashed into the swamp.
 
geoffm
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:02 am

Cedarjet, thanks for correcting it (ok lateral rather than vertical!). I did try a few searches on Google and airline sites but couldn't actually find it.

"steering thingy" - senior moment, or (ahem) try a few beers like I had!  Wink/being sarcastic

Geoff M.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:05 am

In support of what Corey07850 said, what I had heard was that two separate MX items had been accomplished that night.

The first involved some type of work on/near the throttle quadrant that resulted in the thrust levers being moved out of their normal "idle thrust" position and left in a position associated with a higher thrust setting. The engines were off at this time, nobody noticed, and nobody moved them back once the work was done.

The second work item involved one of the engines, after which needed to be run it at the gate. When the guy lit it off, he did so with the thrust lever still not in the idle thrust position. With the abnormally high power setting, the aircraft surged forward, jumped the chocks, and went into the building. There were some cleaners aboard, but they had zero to do with causing the accident.

The "transcript" mentioned at the begining of this thread is a product of someone's imagination.



[Edited 2004-09-15 23:09:05]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:07 am

GeoffM, I didn't mean to be patronising. Man, I would love a beer right now.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
242
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:45 am

>>In support of what Corey07850 said, what I had heard was that two separate MX items had been accomplished that night.

The first involved some type of work on/near the throttle quadrant that resulted in the thrust levers being moved out of their normal "idle thrust" position and left in a position associated with a higher thrust setting. The engines were off at this time, nobody noticed, and nobody moved them back once the work was done.

The second work item involved one of the engines, after which needed to be run it at the gate. When the guy lit it off, he did so with the thrust lever still not in the idle thrust position. With the abnormally high power setting, the aircraft surged forward, jumped the chocks, and went into the building. There were some cleaners aboard, but they had zero to do with causing the accident.<<

Same story I have heard. In addition, the guy doing the run, who was in a hurry to leave for the night, ran the engines while kneeling behind the center quadrant. This would explain why the brakes were found to be in perfect working order yet never used.

The "FDR" text could not be more false. Anyone who has started the engines on a DC-9/MD-80 could tell you this. It's one of the more difficult engines to start without melting it down or grenading the starter.


It should also be noted that the FDR does not record cockpit conversations....the CVR does!


[Edited 2004-09-16 01:02:16]
 
flymia
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:56 am

On airdisasters.com it says that Mechanics where doing engine run up and failed to set the brakes. Thats all. Also I think the throttle might have been up a little.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
CO2BGR
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:10 am

OPNLguy has the story correct,

Some more details from being there that afternoon:
The MD-80 was at gate 115 one of the two "dungeon"gatesat the end of C-2 which is now the RJ councourse at EWR. The flight I was leaving on to BOS was leaving from gate 112 whose waiting area over looked the two dungeon gates. I was standing close to the 112 door, basicly over the 114 jetway. The MD-80 hit about 15 feet to my right. It came in very fast once it jumped the chocs, about 1.5 seconds. It was the result of an enging start up at full power because of MX fowlowing improper procedures. From my perspective I basicly stared at the plane as it came in then was like oh S#!+, we were all evacuated from that gate area rather quikly as they were not sure of the structural integrity of the building. No flights left from C-2 for the rest of that day. The BOS and DCA flights took quite a hit as C-2 was the "shuttle" concourse with some other flights. I never got out of EWR that day as all of the flights toward the North east were cancled or over booked from all of the revenue passengers. I left the next day to BOS. C-2 was closed from 110 to 117 that day. My flight left from 102 which is the gate closest to the main terminal. Nobody (pax wise) realized what had gone on the prior day, Security said that end was "under construction". The plane was removed overnight and the hole tarped over.

I guess that is about it.
There are too many self indulgent weiners in this town with too much bloody money" Randal Raines- Gone in 60 Seconds
 
CO2BGR
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:12 am

One more thing. That was the first time i had seen the pictures form down stairs.....Wow it messed that place up.
There are too many self indulgent weiners in this town with too much bloody money" Randal Raines- Gone in 60 Seconds
 
ua777222
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:22 am


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Juan C. Silva


N16884 Cn 48074/1026). It is said that the aircraft's engines were accidentally started at gate 115... brakes not set ... Declared damaged beyond economical repair.

Sry if already posted.

Thanks again.

UA777222
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
CO2BGR
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:40 am

The engines were NOT accidently started.

They were started as a mx check, they were soposed to be at idle but the levers were not returned to idle by the previous mechanic, and started by another not checking that they were at idle, and started at power.

Just trying to clear things up
There are too many self indulgent weiners in this town with too much bloody money" Randal Raines- Gone in 60 Seconds
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:05 pm

I dont think it's possible to accidentally start a jet engine...

Even if you press the start button in the CRJ, for example....there has to a pneumatic source (APU, high pressure ground air), an ignition source, then youve gotta know how to introduce fuel into the engine to get light off..... None of those steps are intuitive just by looking at the airplane.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
aa777jr
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:14 pm

That is crazy, so did the pilot screw up or was it really cleaners that jacked it up? What type of plane is that? CO???

AA777jr
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ILSApproach
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:16 pm

Hopefully no one got hurt..............but I laughed out loud when I saw the pic from inside the terminal. I found it rather humorous with the plane right up next to the check-in counter............and the gate 114 sign hanging above really put the icing on my laughing.

:D

Mike

 
OPNLguy
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:21 pm

>>>That is crazy, so did the pilot screw up or was it really cleaners that jacked it up? What type of plane is that? CO???

The pilot didn't screw up. Neither did the cleaners.

Go back and read replies 20, 22 and 24 to find out what happened....

It was a Continental MD-80...

[Edited 2004-09-16 05:25:13]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
aa777jr
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:59 pm

Next time, take the key outta the ignition when parked at the gate...haha.

AA777jr
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777ER
Crew
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:51 pm

Has the MD-80 been scrapped as it will never fly again? Bet the person/s responsible were out of a job very quickly. Must admit having the plane parked at the gate check-in is a very good and nice way for the passengers to board the plane.......partically in wet weather Big grin
 
N766UA
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:55 pm

I got a good laugh out of that "CVR transcript" part. Funny stuff. Unfortunatly, the pics aren't so funny.
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FlyGuyClt
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:53 pm

What is so funny to me is, that some of you actully think an airplane is started with the flip on one button. But then again, sometimes people on the board think they know everything about flying. Thanks for the humorous posts! Got my day off to a good start. (no pun intended)

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
KBOS
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:39 pm

For some reason, every time I see those photo's I think of the movie Airplane.......
I don't care if the sun don't shine, I do my drinkin in the evening time when I'm in Rhode Island
 
willo
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:51 pm

What is so funny to me is, that some of you actully think an airplane is started with the flip on one button.... when we all know it's done from the button on the key fob Big grin
 
trickijedi
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:38 am

Man I haven't seen those pics in a while. Funny CVR rendition though.
Its better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Fly safe!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:24 am

The text is clearly BS.

But there are other dangers involved with people playing around in the cockpit.
First, you can activate hydraulic systems and move flight controls. It is not very advisable to drop the flaps and slats while a tanker is parked under the wing. Also, the MD-80 series has pressure accumulators in the thrust reverser system (as the B727-100 QF with the Tay engines). Even if hydraulic is switched off, pulling the T/R levers will causethe thrust reversers (bucket type) to deploy like a guillotine (not very healthy for a mechanic inspecting the tail pipe!). Lifting up the LDG handle might collapse the nose on the ground.
Weather radars have another danger: The emitted power of older systems is strong enough to fry the balls of anybody within a few yards of the antenna, they say newer radars are safe, but I don´t really trust them.

There are many ways to main or kill somebody around an airplane.

Jan

Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
10mid
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:51 am

With external air hooked up, and the pneumatic panel configured right, the ERJ can be started with the flip of a switch. FADEC takes care of everything.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:12 am

I can't believe nobody quoted "Airplane!"...

"...Forklift? It's over that way..."  Laugh out loud

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PSA53
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RE: Don't Fool Around In The Cockpit!

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:05 am

On Jay Leno last night-

John Travolta,who was the guest,admitted
he let the his kids in the cockpit of his aircraft..He(Travolta)
got cut off while answering,so it wasn't clear if was during flight
to Africa or at a full stop.

He also said that his house/aircraft were not
effected by the hurricanes.
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.