boeingbus
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 12:37 am

Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:51 pm

Interesting how they can settle some labor disputes yesterday and purchase new planes today! Good for them!


The planned acquisitions were outlined under Alitalia's 2005-2008 industrial plan, and include the purchase of 3 Boeing 767 aircraft in 2007, 2 Boeing 777 aircraft in 2007 and 2 Boeing 777 aircraft in 2008.

The company said it would purchase 4 Embraer 170 or 190 aircraft in 2007 and an additional 8 Embraer 170 or 190 aircraft in 2008.

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh02848_2004-09-16_12-26-03_l1636401_newsml
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
LHR27C
Posts: 846
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:02 pm

Interesting that AZ, an airline struggling to avoid bankruptcy, can talk about ordering new aircraft, whilst BA, who are far more in profit, are firmly committed to completely cost cutting and not making any new orders! Admittedly the purchases will not be until 2007 and 2008, by which time hopefully AZ's future will look a bit brighter.
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
 
Arniepie
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:03 pm

I hope they are allowed to pay with pizza's because they surely ain't got the cash for it!!
[edit post]
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:05 pm

Why would they buy 767s in 2007 when they could get CHEAPER 7E7s with better economics in 2008? Oh well, good news for Boeing and Embraer if AZ is still around then.
 
Danny
Posts: 3714
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:08 pm

Why would they buy 767s in 2007 when they could get CHEAPER 7E7s with better economics in 2008? Oh well, good news for Boeing and Embraer if AZ is still around then.

Yet another proof that they have no clue what they're doing. This airline is sick from the top to the bottom.

[Edited 2004-09-16 15:08:49]
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:12 pm

Maybe the purchase of only three 7E7 wouldn't be a financially wise decision (Spare parts, maintenance, training ... )? Six or or ten 7E7 - fine, but only three?

Furthermore, those 767 may be pre-used. I wonder why they don't plan to lease them, though.
I support the right to arm bears
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:17 pm

Can AZ pay for that?????????




//////////////////////////////////////
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
BestWestern
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:58 pm

Cedar, Laws of economics don't apply to Alitalia. They will not go under.

You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:00 pm

Has anyone thought that the cost of introducing a new fleet type, associated engineering required, training, support facilities, etc. may be more costly than the associated savings?

Alitalia will be around in 2008. They will fly 7E7's some day, at this point in time, it does not make sense financially.

-g
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:08 pm

How can the Italian gov't keep AZ in the air without breaking EU rules about subsidising unprofitable industry? If there is some underhand financing going on, I hope LH, BA, AF, KL, SK, OZ, EZY, FR, and of course the ex-employees of SN go on the rampage.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
BestWestern
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:13 pm

Q - we are bleeding money, are billions in debt, have only one profitable route... what shall we do..

A - Oh, lets write a plan where we will bleed even more money, increase our debt even further, buy old inefficient 767's that are being abandoned by other airlines, and still only have one profitable route...

AZ have about 35 too many aircraft as it is today...whats wrong with droping other routes that are loss making in order to become profitable.

Roll on FR on CIA BGY...
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:16 pm

BestWestern-

Old inefficient 767s? Last I checked they're still making money for many airlines. Their not inefficient and if you look around, you'ld see some airlines have between 50-100 of them. Yes in the long run they'll need to be replaced...but they're perfectly fine.

Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
TW741
Posts: 339
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:20 pm

Cedarjet
How can the Italian gov't keep AZ in the air without breaking EU rules about subsidising unprofitable industry? If there is some underhand financing going on....


Splitting the present AZ into 2 parts has the following effects:
The airline AZ will be considerably small compared to present AZ - once "reorganised" they will get the "last" financial injection allowed by the EU.
The groundpart AZ will be considerably large and will remain state-owned - meaning - they can continue to receive subsidies without penalty payments or whatever.
EU does not allow state-financing of airlines out of competitive reasons. But there is nothing mentioned about subsidizing "ground companies".

Maybe they will also play the game like AB - the staff (with a few exceptions but including the pilots and cabin crews) is not employed with AB - they are employed with CHS - and are "leased" to AB. So in fact those guys are not even airline employees at AB.
So why not apply such a model to the new AZ? Frees a lot of money for purchasing/leasing aircraft...

Just my thoughts
=TW741=
TWA - we showed you how good we have been!
 
sarrebal
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:10 am

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:25 pm

The usual racist and stupid comments about Italians...

And it's funny to see Irish people talking about how to run a company in a profitable way.... They must have lost their memory.

Cedarjet,
Shame on your company then. Your accounting executives must be a little lazy...
 
BestWestern
Posts: 7039
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:32 pm

Perhaps Sarrebal should look closer to home.. How many loss making american carriers are flying today... (actually, perhaps name the profitable ones... it will be a shorter list)


Regarding Racism - How are your comments re the Irish are different to mine re Italians??

But I have a question Name one loss making Irish airline in operation today?


[Edited 2004-09-16 16:35:40]
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:33 pm

I have a feeling that neither Boeing nor Embraer will be chalking these airplanes up on their backlog.
 
AngelAirways
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 1999 3:55 am

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:37 pm

Yes, it is quite a farce, but getting rid of the burdensome ground handling is an excellent idea, and they actually managed to negotiate productivity increases with pilots.

They still have quite a staff 'attitude' problem to sort out though (customer friendliness and work ethic - or lack thereof). Alitalia staff have an 11% unexplained absence rate as well.

I think the reason they mention 767s is because they intend to purchase them secondhand and cheap... or lease them cheap anyhow.

Despite the dismal situation, whilst I was predicting a guaranteed downfall by the end of september, I have a funny feeling they might JUST about make it through and turnaround. The only reason I say this is because the CEO, Giancarlo Cimoli, was previously CEO of the Italian Railways and managed to turn them around to profitability within just a few years. Now everybody knows that railways are among the most inefficient and unprofitable businesses to run - just look at the contrast between Virgin Trains and Virgin Atlantic in the UK...

So if Cimoli can do it with the trains then he might be able to do it with Alitalia. The key is to win over those pathetically protective and stubborn unions.

 
sarrebal
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:10 am

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:41 pm

Bestwestern,

Every US carrier but WN and B6 is losing money.
That doesn't mean Americans are not able to run businesses.

I work for an Italian company and we have a textbook management. And no, we do not pay vendors with pizza (that was the racist and stupid comment).
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:42 pm

Angelairways,

Apparently Cimoli only has a few days and not years to fix Alitalia. I read they have enough cash to pay staff through the end of the month and that is it. Is this correct?
 
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sebolino
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:51 pm

Bestwestern,

I find it odd that you're speaking this way, considering that without EU money, your country would still be a farmer country.
Europeans, including Italy, were VERY generous with Ireland.
 
AngelAirways
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 1999 3:55 am

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:55 pm

Yep N79969, that is correct. they have enough cash flow to keep going until the end of the month, roughly.

However, if Cimoli succeeds in negotiating all the staff cuts, productivity increases and the separation of AZ Services as a separate company, the cash coming in from ticket sales will suddenly be sufficient for a longer period, because it will not have to be spent on the ground handling unit's losses directly.

If the full restructuring takes place, they will also get a €400m loan, alas.

Mind you, i am in no way a defender of clumsy loss making enterprises, and I am totally against subsidies to airlines, but i am just cautiously optimistic that there is a small chance of survival beyond Sep 30th. This was also reflected by an increase in alitalia share price as soon as the pilot productivity increases were negotiated.

 
AngelAirways
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 1999 3:55 am

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:58 pm

Ah.. more news just in...

Alitalia Reaches Deal with Ground Staff, Flight Attendants Remain
*************************************************


Alitalia yesterday reached an additional cost-cutting deal, adding a ground staff agreement to its agreement reached Tuesday with the airline's pilots. Flight attendants remain the sole hold-outs to cost-cutting agreements the airline says it must make to commence its restructuring plan.

According to Reuters, Alitalia yesterday reached an agreement with ground staff that will see reduced pay and 2,500 job cuts. The airline will meet with its flight attendants union again today.

 
boeingbus
Posts: 1509
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:59 pm

Thanks Sebolino... you beat me to it...
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
bennett123
Posts: 7442
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:23 am

I am not clear whether this is going to mean increased capacity or are they replacing some existing aircraft.

If the former, where will they be used, if the latter what is to be replaced.

I was not aware that the B767 was going to be in production in 2007, so these will probably be used airframes. I would anticipate them being leased.

I think that the 7E7 is likely to be ordered in future, but not yet.

By 2007, many of their MD82 are likely to be replaced because they do not meet CAT4, meaning that additional capacity will be needed.

In the longer term, I see every reason to buy the 7E7 in about 2010, to replace any remaining MD82 and the B767.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:24 am

"Bestwestern,

I find it odd that you're speaking this way, considering that without EU money, your country would still be a farmer country.
Europeans, including Italy, were VERY generous with Ireland."


What an interesting comment... Indeed Ireland, and Spain were reciepients of EU investment for the future. Ireland used this money to turn the economy around. Ireland is now one of the strongest economies in Europe. What a smart investment. Ireland and Spain now pay the EU to help other economies to achieve the same success story.

I have no arguement against Governments funding companies (such as Iberia and Aer Lingus) when this money is successfully used to turn around the business. However Alitalia has had many many investments from the Goverment, both directly and indirectly, and has failed to turn around the company, and will fail again.

This AZ funding is unfair to other European companies, such as BA, LH, FR, etc who are attempting to compete in the same marketplace without such funding, and threatens more jobs elsewhere, such as in Volare and Meridiana, who cannot grow and succeed to their potential due to the unfair Subsidisation of AZ.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
MarcoB2
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:55 pm

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:36 am

"Arent the Italians just wonderful... It's amazing how the laws of economics just dont apply down there."

Dear BestWestern,
since you are making things up about Italians (that do not even follow the rules of this forum), I feel in need to reply to such a stupid statement that you made without following the rules of this forum too.

What are you talking about? In first place Italy is in the G8, the 8 most industrialized countries in the world, and if you have never been in northern Italy, well you should take a trip and see the amount of companies that you can see from the Milano highway. You won't find any country in Europe with such a huge density of industries in such a small area like northern Italy. You'll ask "what does it mean?" Well, I am saying that all of these companies follow their economic laws and rules making the region "Lombradia" one of the richest areas of the world.

Alitalia is a totally separate case. The EU (with BestWestern's Ireland) gave the approval to the Italian gov't to lease 400mEuro for at least actuating a new AZ industrial plan for the next 4-5 yrs. Furthermore, the gov't which owns 60+% of AZ stock will probably increase Alitalia's assets for 1.5B Euros.
Alitalia is likely to cut 5,000 jobs of the 20,000 that make up all the AZ fleet.
AZ will be slpit in two: AZ service and AZ flight.

Do you people know what brought AZ in such a bad shape? It's the bad management that occoured in the 90's that together with the labor unions hasn't done anything but increasing jobs. Now, the labor costs are unaffordable.

So, BestWestern, before making things up and throwing generalizations on the Web, you should think about what you say.

Marco.
 
Lindy
Posts: 4722
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:40 am

From my point of view:

I think that Alitalia went for 767 and 777 because they have made their calculations and they figured out that they will need extra capacity by year 2007/08. Alitalia's management have checked what they can get by then and;
- 7E7 wont be available for them at least until 2009
- 767/777; already trained stuff to operate both types without any interruption in service
- Alitalia will wait and order 7E7 around 2006/2007

Thats what I think.

Rafal
BWIADCA - Nikon D100
 
BestWestern
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:47 am

Marcob2 - this is an aviation forum... I was talking about the basket case Italian airline Alitalia, and the Italian governments attempts to keep it alive against all commercial reason. Would you invest in Alitalia?

So when I discuss the laws of economics I'm talking about Alitalia's anti gravity suit... Not Italys Anti Gravity Suit.

I complain about Alitalia, and everyone reminds me to go home to my potato country.






[Edited 2004-09-16 17:51:40]
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
scottysair
Posts: 6442
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:51 am

This is mean for more new Boeing aircraft with the 777 aircraft and it is make for expansion on the long haul flights out of MXP & FCO. I am complain about alitalia was good purchase on the orders with EMB-190. This is need to reminds me about go home in PHX.
 
sarrebal
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:10 am

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:52 am

Bestwestern,

AZ funding is unfair to FR?


Ahah....that was a good one!
Because it was a joke, right?
 
UA744KSFO
Posts: 411
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:10 am

BestWestern and Cedarjet,

Racism is completely inappropriate when discussing the airline industry! My entire family is Italian and I really don't appreciate your comments against Italians.

You don't hear me making comments about how British or Irish food means that the British and the Irish have something wrong with them, do you? No! Different cultures offer different strengths, and I'm proud of what Italy and its people have to offer to the world.

Viva L'Italia!!
 
aeronuts
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:47 am

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:14 am

Interesting discussion, like many kids who wants the new toy's, the call to dump the "old" 767 and get the "new" 7E7 as if it's already a plane available tomorrow show how junior some a.net members are.

Last checked, 7E7 has not been designed, built, and flight tested. As far as airlines are concern, it's still on the dream state and appears only airline that has the financial strength (ANA) can bet on the new 7E7.

A struggling airline like AZ is dealing with today, the next quarter, and maybe even the next fiscal year. For all we know, they may have gotten a great deals for those 767's.

Not discussed, is that AZ already own's a bunch of maintenance equipments supporting the 767's (i.e. fixtures, parts, etc..) and it may actually make sense and value for AZ to keep 767 flying into 2007, rather than putting up more money for new 7E7 along with infrastructure.
 
behramjee
Posts: 4337
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:28 am

Out of everyones viewpoints...LINDY's is the one that makes most sense  Smile

Now we all know that AZ is severly short of cash and therefore the very thought of purchasing new aircraft within 2-3 years is virtually out of the question.

The B 763ERs have obviously been chosen because of fleet commonality as have the B 777s. When the B 7E7s arrive in the world, expect AZ to order over a dozen of them replacing their entire B 767 fleet...that is ofcourse if it can afford to at that time and still is living  Big grin

Now the million dollar question is :

Are those B 777s the -200ER version OR -200LR version or -300ER version???

I think AZ has options to convert any -200ERs with BOEING to -300ERs...am I right?
 
MarcoB2
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:55 pm

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:31 am

If AZ is buying airplanes, that means that there's got to be a reason. I don't think the CEO decides to buy whatever and whenever he wants, right? So, I am assuming that this airline, although it's in deep financial troubles, is positive and optimistic about the next future.

Assuming then that its decision is not so wrong, I am sure that they've done the right choice not to expand their fleet with new aircraft models like the B7E7 or A380 or whatever they don't have now. Otherwise, AZ would have to upgrade all the aircraft maintenance facilities for the new models, and then spending money for supporting all of the maintenance teams specialized on too many aircraft models.

That's why Southwest Airlines never bought any airplane different than a B737. It's because in this way they can keep the "complexity" of the company (in this case an airline) at a low level compared to, say, Continetal's that uses or used 14 types of aircrafts. Also, Southwest is able, with only one type of aircraft, to speed up all of those extraflight tasks like switching airplanes, refueling, etc.
That's why Continental's CEO opted sometime ago to decrease the "complexity" of the company by decreasing the number of airplane types (not the number of airplanes!!!) from 14 to I think 6. I might be wrong, on these numbers but shouldn't be too far.

That's why, if I was an airline's CEO I'd never have too many models of aircrafts. Alitalia I think has too many.

Marco.
 
rlwynn
Posts: 1105
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:35 am

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:39 am

Know what is kind of funny?

The only Italian customer I have, Actually pays me in Pizzas.
But that is just me being nice to him.

I can drive faster than you
 
MarcoB2
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:55 pm

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:52 am

You know what Rlwynn?
I have a stong will to reply to your post with something that would make you hurt as much as you hurted me.
But I am Italian, and I will control myself.

Marco.
 
DIA
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

Racist Statements

Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:03 am

UA744KSFO said:

"BestWestern and Cedarjet,

Racism is completely inappropriate when discussing the airline industry! My entire family is Italian and I really don't appreciate your comments against Italians."


I agree. Nice summarization.


Cedarjet said:
"Yeah, what the hell is wrong with these people? Every company that owes my company money is Italian. They are a nightmare."

Being Italian-American myself, I find statements like these to be tasteless and juvenile. Such blanket statements, such as this, reflect a person's intelligence. . .in this case, a lack of.

Reading through replies on aviation topics on (A.net) is usually interesting and fun. . .until you read such statements such as the replies above (Reply 7 & 8) by BestWestern and Cedarjet. Not only are they non-aviation related, but incredibly racist. Nice job guys.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
gearup
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 9:23 am

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:26 am

Good post DIA,

As a Canadian of Irish birth I am a little disapointed at the Italian bashing thats going on here. Guys the contribution that Italians have made to Canada and indeed the world is enormous. I can't imagine Toronto without it's Italian influence. Anyway, that being said, Alitalia is not the only airline to propose the purchase of new aircraft while in the process of restructuring, did'nt Air Canada pull that stunt as well? There may be others.

Be kind guys!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

GU
I have no memory of this place.
 
rlwynn
Posts: 1105
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:35 am

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:27 am

Why the hell would that hurt you?
I do advertising, the guy has a small pizza and ice place. I do work for him and he pays me in pizzas.
Has done so for a while now.

He has nice pictures, I have to high cholesterol.
Everybody is happy.

It is nobodys fault but the Italians that their business reputation is what it is.
Parlamat being only the lastest. And we wont even get into Berlisconi(sp) or god forbid the mafia.

But that does not mean one is being racist to make a bit of fun at the situation.

Maybe some of you need to go look up the word racist.
I can drive faster than you
 
User avatar
PanAm_DC10
Crew
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:32 am

Bahramjee

I think AZ has options to convert any -200ERs with BOEING to -300ERs...am I right?

Yes they have 6 options and IIRC they also have 6 purchase rights from when they placed their initial 777 order. At that time 773ER's were mentioned.

Regards
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
scotron11
Posts: 1181
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:33 am

I think this discussion is about AZ possibly purchasing additional aircraft, folks! Let's keep on the subject.

I initially dismissed this post as I dont think AZ have a pot to piss in. Let us be honest here; the condition of the EU approval for the loan was that the Italian Government reduce it's stake to less than 50% within one year, and the loan money was never intended for AZ to purchase new planes. I suspect all this last minute negotiation going on is just window dressing anyhow - 25% job cuts were never on the cards. All they have agreed to sofar is less than 3000!

As to fleet commonality, how many planes does AZ have, 35? It hardly makes them a "major" carrier! More than likely, this circus has been brought about by AF/KLM to smooth a takeover of AZ in the very near future. IMHO
 
MarcoB2
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:55 pm

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:40 am

Alright, that's it.
You think you are funny, but your brain is too small to show you what's inside your country.

1) You spoke about Parmalat? What about Emron's scandal that in proprtion was a much bigger shame?

2)And do not even get into other countries politics. What does Berlusconi metter in this aviation forum???

And you are doing a right thing not to show your name and last name.

Shame on you.

 
sarrebal
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:10 am

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:43 am

Rlwynn,

I'm extremely racist. But just against stupid people.
And they're from all over the world, even from the US.

PS: Where do you want me to ship the dictionary? S&H charges are on me.
 
MarcoB2
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:55 pm

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:47 am

Officially 2,500 were the job cuts. However the gov't is trying to do everything to cut 5,000. I don't know if they will, but that's what the gov't wants.

The diversity in number of airplane models has NOTHING to do with the size of an airline.

And yes, the Italian gov't will decrease its partecipation in AZ stock lower than 50% within some years.

MarcoB2
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:58 am

I have a stong will to reply to your post with something that would make you hurt as much as you hurted me. But I am Italian, and I will control myself.

Oh STFU and get over yourself... you're throwing a fit over pizza. Rlwynn and Arniepie made a joke, and half the forum flips out crying "racism." Tolerance breading intolerance.. i swear to god  Insane

I think this discussion is about AZ possibly purchasing additional aircraft, folks! Let's keep on the subject.

Amen

A - Oh, lets write a plan where we will bleed even more money, increase our debt even further, buy old inefficient 767's that are being abandoned by other airlines, and still only have one profitable route...

It tends to be more preferable to complete a fleet before adding a new entire type. WN for example, ordered 28 737-300 after they launched the 737-700... there are many examples of this sort
 
rlwynn
Posts: 1105
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:35 am

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:01 am

Hopefully the Italian government and the airline can see that they are on the ropes big time. I think that realization will be the only thing to save Alitalia.

Btw. I dont want to fight with anybody here. It is just that the level of hypersensitivity here is laughable. This has to be the most politically correct place in the whole web. As an American living in Germany I think I can say what it is like having your country made fun of basically every day.

You can send the dictionary to Marco.
I can drive faster than you
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
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RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:06 am

None of this actually makes any sense without a look at the GECAS leasing arrangements Alitalia has.

There may be aircraft coming off lease which will need to be attended to. Presumably GECAS would be picking up the tab for any new aircraft as well.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
aeronuts
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:47 am

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:35 am

Scotron11, must be english humor...

"As to fleet commonality, how many planes does AZ have, 35? It hardly makes them a "major" carrier! More than likely, this circus has been brought about by AF/KLM to smooth a takeover of AZ in the very near future"

Last checked, AZ has a few more planes than 35.
 
baw716
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Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:44 am

Hi everyone,
Just for the record, I am an ex Alitalia manager, who developed a terrific franchise in a major US city and afterward got hit by 9/11 and the need for aircraft, then got severely injured, then could not go on, etc. etc.

To those of you who express really bad opinions about Alitalia, let me say this: Alitalia is Italian, yes. Alitalia has its problems and they are severe, yes. Alitalia doesn't know what it is doing....that, my friends is a matter of opinion, not only on this forum, but in Italy as well.

First and foremost, Alitalia believe it or not, can be a great airline. They have the infrastructure, the route net (MXP apart), well maintained aircraft, excellent flight crews...and I mean EXCELLENT!. I have flown with a good many of them and I can tell you they are as professional and by the numbers as any US airline pilots with whom I have flown. They have challenges in certain areas of the company, but with the development of a true survival instinct, they can solve some of those problems. They do need some outside assistance to get past some of the "Italian issues" which bog down the airline. Aside from that, there is lots of potential here.

OK. IF Cimoni has gotten concessions from the unions, then the plan to grow the airline is a good one. If you will note, they are purchasing LONG HAUL aircraft, not focusing on the European market, but the global market itself. They have ex pats all over the world that fly to Italy, a relatively loyal following at home. Remember, Italy is one of the top 5 destinations in the world. If they can develop those aspects of Italianness that people love while suppressing or otherwise working around those aspects of Italianness that drive us and them (yes them) nuts, then they do have a chance.

Now lets talk about fleet: Alitalia is building their fleet around three aircraft types: Embraer (short haul), Airbus (medium haul) Boeing (long haul). The 767s are configured for 205 seats, which means that even in Economy, you are not squashed like a bug. With that configuration, they can fly to thin routes of the US west coast and to Asia with no troubles except carrying large cargo.

They cannot afford the 7E7 right now. They are buying (and leasing back) the 767s because, yes they are cheap. Boeing is practically giving them away to keep the line going for another year until the 7E7 is more than a picture on a computer. The 777 has been a BIG success for them...passengers like it, cargo forwarders love it and it is economic enough that it can go to certain destinations in which cargo is big (LAX?) and make the aircraft profitable just by filling it with cargo and Business Class passengers (there are many that fly to Italy from LAX).

I would only ask on this forum that if you are going to bash Alitalia, that you state a reasonable reason as to why you think they are making mistakes, not because you dislike the airline or think Italians are idiots. There are certainly things that need fixing over there, the biggest thing they need to fix is the meddling of the Italian government. They have had too many management teams in the two years since I left the company to have any success of making a meaningful strategy work. Hopefully, they will let Cimoni do his job and stay out of it. The key to Alitalia's long term survival is that it becomes private. It can't do that unless certain things happen. Hopefully they will.
I for one have very deep feelings for the friends I have made at Alitalia during the years I was there, not just in the US, but in Canada, Italy, South America and Asia.

Please give them a chance...and if you don't have something that is useful for discussion on this forum, please use a little discretion.
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
Alitalia744
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Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes

Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:56 am

BAW716 you have just earned my respect.

Great post about the truth of Alitalia.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.

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