bigpappa
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Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:18 am

Why do certain airlines do that?

Is it because of favoritism, nationalism or just because the other aircraft maker doesn't suit them...

Does Alitalia have any airbus aircraft?
Does AA have any airbus?
Does Qatar have any Boeing?

etc....
Many thanks
one good flight deserves another!!!!
 
Rj111
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:19 am

Does Alitalia have any airbus aircraft? Yes
Does AA have any airbus? Yes
Does Qatar have any Boeing? No
 
bigpappa
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:45 am


oops sorry my mistake.... but not in big quantities though
one good flight deserves another!!!!
 
NIKV69
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:52 am

Why? One big reason $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
texdravid
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:05 am

I see many European airlines now and into the future buying mostly, if not all, Airbus as a way to give money to a European company and also to snub America.

America is not a country on anyone's favorite list in Europe, and the hate they have for Bush will transfer over to airline orders.

The Asian carriers will be more pro Boeing.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:06 am

Why? One big reason $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Exactly.


Some airlines find a model more suited for their needs, and some another. There are dozens of factors influencing choice of aircraft:

- Fleet commonality.
- Price (or leasing price).
- Route.
- Availability of maintenance.
- Maintenance cost.
- Heavy maintenance cost.
- Training cost.
- Spare parts cost.
- Operating cost.
- Politics (unfortunate but true).
- Image.
- ...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:08 am

I see many European airlines now and into the future buying mostly, if not all, Airbus as a way to give money to a European company and also to snub America.

America is not a country on anyone's favorite list in Europe, and the hate they have for Bush will transfer over to airline orders.


I'm sorry but this is horses**t. Companies will buy what gives them the best price/performance for their needs. Anything else is throwing money down the drain.

And I think most Europeans realize Bush does not equal Boeing in any case.


America is not a country on anyone's favorite list in Europe

Even more horses**t. I'm a European and I love America, and there are many like me.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
texdravid
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:14 am

Some truth to your statements, Starlionblue, but politics does play a part!

However, Europeans view of Americans is lower now than in recent memory, mostly because of Bush, the war, other factors.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:16 am

Airlines buy what works best for them. In some cases there is political influence, in others, its preference.

Alitalia for example prefers to fly Boeing aircraft on long-haul. This is a combination of performance, reliability, experience and preference. They do however fly Airbii on their local/short-haul routes.

-g
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:17 am

You will note that I did mention politics  Big grin

I really don't think it will affect aircraft procurement. Name one procurement deal where this has happened.

I think you mistake Europeans' (in general) dislike for Bush with dislike of America and Americans. They're not the same thing.

And we're talking many million of dollars here, with long and protracted procurement processes and professional negotiators. Politics will not enter into it in that way.

EDIT: Conversely, you don't see UA, NW or any other US carrier not considering Airbus because most of them are assembled in France.

[Edited 2004-09-17 19:19:38]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
citationjet
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:23 am

Politics will not enter into it in that way

When the US government put out a request for proposal for Air Force One, there were only two bidders: Boeing (747) and McD (DC-10). Airbus was not an option.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:29 am

When the US government put out a request for proposal for Air Force One, there were only two bidders: Boeing (747) and McD (DC-10). Airbus was not an option.

The mother of all special cases and besides Airbus didn't even have an aircraft that would fulfil the requirements.


When the USAF looked at a tanker replacement, it considered both the 767 and the 330. Where that ended up is a long story of course Big grin


In any case if you are talking taxpayer money, it's one thing. But nowadays government controlled airlines (in practice) are thin on the ground in Europe and the USA. The motive has to be profit.

[Edited 2004-09-17 19:30:35]

[Edited 2004-09-17 19:31:40]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
jasepl
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:40 am

I see many European airlines now and into the future buying mostly, if not all, Airbus as a way to give money to a European company and also to snub America.

Ah yes. More whining. Just what we needed.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:44 am

I see many European airlines now and into the future buying mostly, if not all, Airbus as a way to give money to a European company and also to snub America.


Did I mention that a large proportion of Airbus parts are actually made by American companies?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
ltbewr
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:56 am

One factor is tradition within an airline. If a company was a heavy Boeing buyer, then continue to buy Boeing. Sometimes the need of an airline and available models may be a factor, like when Airbus came out with the A300 series, long before the B767. Executives whom make buying decisions may have a strong preference because of past experience or connections to Boeing. Pilot experience/training at a given airline may be a difference. Air France is in the home of Airbus, but yet they continue to buy Boeing models (a new 777-300ER is in final prep for delivery) for use on certain routes. Delivery timing of an a/c of needed specifications may be a factor, like the delay on delivery of 737NG's may make several airlines consider A318/A320's as may get faster delivery. Most a/c today are leased rather that bought directly by an airline, so the decision is made by the leasing co's, not as much by the airlines themselves. Exchange rates of money, financing costs and banks/financial companies lending also add to the mix as to A or B choice.
 
TW741
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:00 am

I do think the decision between Airbus and Boeing has also other factors based on the difference between US travelling habits and European habits (and beyond)

Short to medium routes:
Pax travelling with checked-in baggage - not too many in US but usually a lot in europe since fewer same day returns.
Airfreight carried by airlines - common in Europe - only small extent in US.

The A319/20/21 has a container loading system for quick loading/unloading baggage which is good for intra-European routes but not necessary for US short trips. Unloading a B737 manually - pulling out 100 bags and suitcases and 1 or 2 tons of cargo - is time consuming. For this the small Airbus family saves on groundtime considerably.

Long-Haul:
When an airline has already the smaller Airbus Babies it is good to have a common line with A330/340 as supplement. Saves on crew training, maintenance, ....

Still there is substantial number of Boeing customers in Europe also for the short haul segment. Charter airlines, LCC´s - the need for quick turnarounds is not that big and they do not carry airfreight or airmail. Also they often fly to destinations where you dont have highloaders to get the containers out. Furthermore you soon losse control where your ULD´s are. So for the charter/LCC airlines the 737 is a good choice within Europe.
Best example: OS group - Austrian mostly Airbus (plus a few elder MD´s) - Lauda Air as the "leisure" part of the group - all Boeing. OS recently ordered another 738 for NG. And not to forget - the 777 for the Far east schedule flights.

For all other terms I fully agree with Starlionblue as listed in reply 5.

=TW741=
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dutchjet
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:21 am

The original post was very innocent......but I feel a major A vs. B war coming on and lets try to avoid it.

So many factors are involved in purchasing aircraft, remember how expensive an airliner is, and a major order runs into billions of dollars/euros, so the desicion is a huge one and I do not personally think that politics or country of origin are a major factor in the decision making process. Remember that a huge amount of content in Airbus airliners comes from the US, and a huge amount of content in Boeing airliners comes from Japan, China and other far off lands, so its not nearly as simple as America vs. Europe as some may suggest.

1. The most important issue is the aircraft's mission.....an airline buys the types that is needs. Also keep in mind that decisions are made by what is available at the time that the order is being placed - the 737NG is great, but if an airline made its narrowbody fleet decision before that type was launched, the airline may have looked to Airbus.

2. Money, price, terms, support packages.....all of the financial stuff is a very key factor and often the deal maker or breaker.

3. Delivery times......manufacturers do not have airliners in inventory, and it takes a long time for a fleet of aircraft to be delivered. If Airbus cannot deliver a fleet of A320s to an airline within the time frame desired by an airline, they may buy Boeing instead for that reason alone.

4. Leasing companies influence airlines.....if a large lessor has several of one type available, the airline may go on to order the type as well.

5. Commonality - msot airlines stick with one type for a specific mission, we dont see many carriers flying the 340 and 777 side by side (although AF does, for example) and we dont see many flying the 73G and A321 (but SAS does).....it depends on economics and fleet size.

6. Tradition - certain airlines are long time customers of A or B and prefer their products.

7. Politics - of course politics are involved and politicians will stick their noses into situations where they do not belong - billions of dollars/euros in orders and thousand of jobs are at stake, politicians will take notice.

8. But remember, carriers worldwide want both Boeing and Airbus, and Embraer and Canadair to stay in business. All Airbus or All Boeing fleet propoganda is nonsense.....only if the manufacturers all stay in business will new and more effecient and more advanced products become available, and only if all the manufacturers stay in business can the airlines negotiate and obtain aircraft at market prices. You can be sure that Lufthansa, which flies more and more Airbus aircraft, takes a very serious look at any new product offered by Boeing and even CO, which is very pro-Boeing, studies what Airbus has to offer.
 
Paul777
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 12:22 pm

LTBEWR, I agree with you! You got me thinking about this - Not too common an occurrence to see airlines switching manufacturers say 10 years ago, but it seems to be happening more often now. An airline (USAir/US Airways in this case) that goes from having a predominantly Boeing/McDD fleet to becoming a heavy user of Airbus aircraft due in large part to Wolfe coming over from United where they had a large Airbus narrow body fleet (IMHO).



Glad we are not getting into heavy Airbus vs. Boeing discussions!
 
sebring
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boe

Sat Sep 18, 2004 12:41 pm

Air Canada not being European or American has always been a bit of a belwether.

It bought the A320 because Boeing stopping making/updating the 727-200 - a real mid-sized transcontinental aircraft in North America - and only had the 737-300/400/500 to offer, a plane with less than true transcontinental range. That generation of 737 was conceived for customers like Southwest and American, the former into short stage lengths (especially back then) and the latter married firmly to hub and spoke. AC's only Boeing alternative with transcon range was the 757, which was just too large most of the time. Along comes Airbus with the A320, a mid-sized, fuel-effiicient, advanced technology aircraft with true transcon range. It was a no-brainer. Once it had the A320, the A319 became an easy decision, and you can see how AC flies that plane, using it even on sectors like Toronto-Bogota or Montreal Los Angeles. These are six-hour flights!

It took Boeing years to rectify its mistake by bringing out the 737NG with the desired range/efficiency characteristics.

The airline's decision to buy Airbus widebodies reflected a combination of size, range (AC was just getting into transpacific flying in a bigger way), good delivery dates and VERY AGRESSIVE PRICING. Once it had the A340-300, the 330-300 became a natural addition. AC has even been able to partially withstand nationalistic forces, for while it does fly some Canadair regional jets, and likes them on truly regional circuits, the bulk of its order for larger regional jets is going to Embraer because AC management just loves the EMB-190 and how it fits into AC's North American marketing strategy.

So mission, availability and price are very big factors. Where the aircraft has been manufactured has not mattered one iota. I can assure you that AC is quite capable - even likely - to order Boeing again. CEO Robert Milton has given the 7E7 a lot of praise, just as he has been an enthusiastic buyer of the EMB-190. Again, the longer-range variants of the 7E7 fit AC's longhaul intercontinental growth strategy much better than any 777 or Airbus product, and AC is likely to pick the 7E7 as its replacement for older 767s unless Airbus floors it with both its aircraft offer and its pricing.



 
777ER
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:29 pm

Airbus suits NZ well for short haul because of the cargo that the A320s can carry. Boeing suits NZ perfectly for Long-haul.
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StickShaker
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:33 pm

..."Politics - of course politics are involved and politicians will stick their noses into situations where they do not belong" ...

Political interference is usually restricted to state run airlines where governments seek to influence purchases for political reasons. Such interference is very rare in western countries with free market style economies.
Political interference can also come from the suppliers side. After the 1990 Gulf War the US government lobbied Saudi Arabia to purchase Boeing rather than Airbus aircraft for the state carrier - the logic was that US (and allied) forces had sheltered the Saudi's from an Iraqi invasion and that it was the least the Saudi's could do in return to purchase American aircraft.
Cant remember what the outcome was.

Cheers,
StickShaker
 
Alessandro
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:50 pm

Politics, surely El-Al wouldn´t go all Boeing if there was no politics involved,
same reason no arab country will buy the B717, since large part of it is built in
Israel.
Price is important, 2nd hand value is also important. I think planes that aren´t
made anymore lose their 2nd hand value faster than planes that are still made,
that´s my own opinion.
Spare parts prices are also important, also service (B777 got 2 GE90s, worlds biggest engine, this has caused head-ache a couple of times where B777
got stuck because it couldnt find someone to ferry replacement engine in
time, nor equipement to replace it).
Engine availbility also important, if there´s only one engine manufacturer
availble like GE to a certain airplane model, I think it can be a disadvantage.


From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
eugdog
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:02 pm

It is quite natural for airlines in europe to be more favourable to Airbus then Boeing all other things being equal. These airlines are subject to considerable government pressure and their government would expect them to buy Airbus.

Aerospace is a very high profile prestigious industry so there is huge temptation for political interference! High profile jobs are at stake as well!

I do not why Boeing bothered submitted a bid for the Iberia order - how could Iberia possibly order Boeing (unless they make MUCH better planes) when Spain is major contractor for Airbus.

Political interference also exist in the US - many congressman have complained about US airlines ordering Airbus but it is obviously at a less amount as evidence by the large Airbus orders from US Airways and United (lucky Airbus!). The nature of American politics makes it hard for politician to force airlines to buy Boeing. Moreover airlines in the US, despite being heavily protected against foriegn competition, do not have the national prestige as national flag carriers in the US.
 
petertenthije
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RE: Why Do Certain Airlines Buy Airbus &others Boeing

Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:10 pm

Why does one airline buy Boeing and another Airbus. Why does one trucking company buy Mercedes and another DAF. Why does one taxi company buy Mercedes and another Ford. Why does one person buy a Skoda and another Volkswagen...

The reason is always the same. Because it is the best option for them. And what may be best for one person or company, may very well be worst for another.

There are just too many variable to just be able to say that plane A is always better than plane B (or other way round). The range, the capacity (passenger and freight), engine choise, availability, maintenance, spare parts supply and of course the money. If Airbus gave Southwest a killer deal, Southwest would change supplier. Likewise, if Boeing gave Jetblue a great offer they would go for it.

It is true that in aviation politics play a more important role than in for instance trucking. But nonetheless for most western airlines this will not be the deciding factor despite what some people would like you to believe.

Dutchjet summed it up pretty nicely.
Attamottamotta!